Remove Pull Replace Install Change T1N Fuel Injector

Midwestdrifter

Engineer In Residence
Due to variance in torque wrenches, thread lubrication/friction, etc a normal bolt risks pulling the threads, or coming loose. It may work, but that long neck on the factory bolt acts like a calibrated spring, it also stretches to create ideal clamping force regardless if you miss the torque or degree values by 20% or not.
 

beefsupreme

2006 T1N 2500 158” high roof
Adding to the body of knowledge in this thread which has greatly helped me...

I would highly recommend acetone for use in dissolving/cleaning the black death. I recently had to do a couple of mine, and had enough black death compound to try a dozen different solvents against it for efficacy, and acetone was by far the most effective.

The other outstanding agent was carb cleaner, which at least in my example was a mixture of acetone and toluene. I elected to use acetone as I was worried the toluene would be more aggressive against plastics. While acetone can also be harmful to some plastics, it didn't seem overly reactive when used judiciously (q-tip) on the injectors and electrical connectors. Gasket remover also seemed somewhat effective, but also very nasty reactive stuff, and I was again worried about all the plastic components, particularly when the injectors are still in place. The foamy nature of gasket remover and oven cleaner could be more useful once the injectors are out and the area clear, but I didn't see a need to try anything other than acetone.

I tried a couple different approaches, firstly I removed as much of the sticky mess as possible with picks and other small tools while the engine was hot(which I then used for testing). In my first approach I simply stuffed a folded paper towel in behind the injector body and carefully poured small amounts of acetone in front of the injector, which would dissolve some of the black death, and then be absorbed up into the paper towel. This was effective but slow. I later rigged up a vacuum system to just remove the acetone as as liquid. The same idea of pouring in the front, and sucking it from the rear but in a continuous process. That basically worked, but wasn't optimal as I had some material compatibility issues with the acetone attacking the vacuum tubing, which was not entirely unexpected. Polyethylene tubing probably would have fared better than the small engine fuel tubing I was using.

One thing to watch out for is adding too much acetone, as there are some small ridges that separate the injector wells, if you overflow those, you can actually move dissolved black death into other adjacent injector wells, which would be undesirable especially if you have only a very minor and localized case. Hard to tell in my case as it was more severe and was spreading pretty widely anyway with injectors 2&3 both leaking.

Once the injectors are out, it is of course much easier to use paper towels, q-tips, gun cleaning patches, and wooden dowels. I was able to achieve very clean results in the end. It also worked well in the hold down bolt holes where I would fill them up with acetone, and then insert several q-tips to soak up the dissolved muck.

Acetone does have a fairly low boiling point so for deep cleaning you really have to have a cold engine, I did most of my cleaning around the injectors in the days ahead of actually changing them out. The low boiling point can also help a bit on a warm engine to help clean the hold down bolt holes as the boiling action will blow some of the crap out of the holes. The low boiling point can be a positive as it will evaporate without any residue given time/heat.

After initial cleaning to get the majority of the accessible black death I then soaked the injector wells in Kroil which I've had success with in the past for penetrating and loosening difficult items like injectors and glow plugs etc... It was also one of the compounds I tested against the black death, and while it doesn't dissolve it, it did have noticeable effect in softening it up, which can only be beneficial to the process. Since it's not as volatile, it should stick around and soak in better, although it does of course gets blown out of the injector wells by the leaking exhaust gasses while driving.

An full list of the compounds I tried:
Paint Thinner, Acetone, Mineral Spirits, Kerosene, Gasket Remover, Brake Cleaner, Denatured Alcohol, SeaFoam, Oven Cleaner, 3M Adhesive Remover, Carb Cleaner, Kroil, Naptha
 

220629

Well-known member
Thanks for the input. :thumbup:

... I later rigged up a vacuum system to just remove the acetone as as liquid. The same idea of pouring in the front, and sucking it from the rear but in a continuous process. That basically worked, but wasn't optimal as I had some material compatibility issues with the acetone attacking the vacuum tubing, which was not entirely unexpected. Polyethylene tubing probably would have fared better than the small engine fuel tubing I was using.

...
It sounds like you were using a vacuum pump.

I would suggest that using a vacuum cleaner might have a risk associated. The vacuum cleaner motor has sparking brushes. The flammable gas isn't likely to get directly into the area of the sparks, but if it does it could cause a flash or possibly an explosion.

Be careful using a vacuum cleaner or other spark producing devices around solvents. The solvent fumes can disperse to the area and be ignited.

:2cents: vic
 

beefsupreme

2006 T1N 2500 158” high roof
Some more info that might be helpful regarding the injector seals. There is an alternate Honda part which some advocate to be a better replacement than the Mercedes factory seal. This is described on the following site: http://www.mercedes.gen.in/mercedes-cdi-injector-leak-honda-washerseal-alternative/

I'm sure it's mentioned on this forum somewhere as well (maybe even in this thread) but I hadn't seen any good comparison between the parts. Since I found the above article compelling, I decided to procure some of these injector seals. I found them on eBay, and they shipped direct from Japan in short order. I thought others would also be interested in the dimensional differences. While they are dimensionally very similar in ID and OD, the Honda is about 30% thicker. I thought the forum might like a side by side comparison, so I took a few measurements and comparison photos, which are attached. I just used calipers, not a micrometer, so don't expect extreme precision in these measurements, but it's good enough to paint the picture.

While I realize there will be controversy about whether or not it's a good idea to use non factory parts, (and I'm not advocating anybody do anything), after having 3 out of 5 injectors leak, I was personally questioning how solid the original design is. So I've now got 4 of the Honda seals in service, and one that I had previously replaced with the original Mercedes part. I haven't put enough miles on it since the repair to be able to speak about long term reliability, but I am hopeful that at 205K, this will be the last time I have to replace them. I did notice doing these replacements, that the seal didn't want to grab the injector as well as I remember doing the previous replacement, but that was only one (a pretty small sample size). I had to put a little dab of ceramic grease on the inside ring (not on the sealing surface) to help retain it when placing the injector, which maybe wasn't optimal. Alternatively I probably could have placed the seal down in the injector well and then inserted the injector.
 

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beefsupreme

2006 T1N 2500 158” high roof
Vic,

Yes, thank you for the welcome clarification, I should have thought to mention that. I was indeed using a manual vacuum pump, so no risk of explosion. I used one of the larger styles designed for changing oil, but since I didn't want to get acetone in it either as it's made of plastic, I just created a smaller vacuum chamber out of a mason jar with a couple of holes poked in the lid, one leading to the pump, and the other used as the pickup for the black death and acetone solution. Given the relatively large pump, it didn't require much pumping to give suction for a prolonged period.


Thanks for the input. :thumbup:


It sounds like you were using a vacuum pump.

I would suggest that using a vacuum cleaner might have a risk associated. The vacuum cleaner motor has sparking brushes. The flammable gas isn't likely to get directly into the area of the sparks, but if it does it could cause a flash or possibly an explosion.

Be careful using a vacuum cleaner or other spark producing devices around solvents. The solvent fumes can disperse to the area and be ignited.

:2cents: vic
 
D

Deleted member 50714

Guest
As others have said, once a stretch bolt starts stretching there is little gain in clamping force achieved by turning it in further. You just continue the plastic deformation of the neck (until it breaks).

If you can’t find a small enough torque wrench, the “feel” of 62 inch pounds (5 ft lbs) can be practiced... Set your dial to 125, put a pipe extension on to double the handle length, then click away on something tight until you can predict exactly how hard to pull to make the guage pop. Then go to your new hold-down bolt and pull on it without the extension and you’ll be pretty close.
Called it the "Calibrated Elbow Method" and not recommended for N00bs.
 

MillionMileSprinter

Millionmilesprinter.com
Thank you, beefsupreme, for that very informative write up of the two seal options.
I will say after having done lots of injector seal replacements, that the only times I have felt I really needed the thicker seals was when there was a case of black death and a groove was worn in the injector seat face that I had to bore out. First of all, the thicker seat seal would help offset the now missing metal and keep the tip of the injector in it's original depth inside the cylinder. 2nd of all, I once had a groove so deep in the seat that I didnt feel comfortable boring down that deep. So I went as deep as I felt comfortable and hoped that the extra thickness of that washer would help fill in the groove. About 30k miles later and still no sign of black death.
Normally, for a worn out injector swap or as preventative maintenance, a non leaking injector seat will only require the regular MB seal.
 

Nautamaran

2004 140” HRC 2500 (Crewed)
I’d be curious if there is any difference in the initial hardness of the Honda and MB washers? The injector bolt crushes the copper which work-hardens it as it deforms into the imperfections on the injector and aluminum well. Presumably the thicker the washer the more turn of bolt would be required to provide the additional crushing to harden the washer throughout its thickness? Or is the stock washer not fully worked after the specified 62 in•lb + 180° ?
 
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beefsupreme

2006 T1N 2500 158” high roof
Steve Ball who wrote about this on the Mercedes Gen-In site that I referenced in my earlier post writes the following regarding hardness of the Honda washer vs. the MB version:
They[Honda] look slightly thicker and are definitely made from a softer more malleable material than the OEM Mercedes units. My own view is that this softness assists in sealing to irregular hand cut/cleaned seal faces and seats better than the harder MB equivalent washers.
And later replying to one of the comments to his original article:

The Honda copper washers are by far more malleable, they appear almost annealed compared to the genuine MB ones that are very hard stamped and will not compress much, this you can tell. The compliant softer material as you point out, in my view moulds better in the action of of tightening so is a superior repair to less than perfect surfaces whether due to erosion, corrosion or just the inadequacies of hand reaming. Either way not scientifically proven just more common sense and basic physics.
Source - http://www.mercedes.gen.in/mercedes-cdi-injector-leak-honda-washerseal-alternative/

Having handled both the MB original and the Honda part, I honestly can't determine any difference in hardness just by gross examination, and I don't know how to go about evaluating their comparative hardness without doing some sort of destructive testing (which I suppose could be done).

Since the hold-down bolt is stretching anyway, I would think the extra thickness neither creates nor requires any extra clamping force. I only use the 7nm +90° method, skipping the second +90° based on my readings elsewhere on this forum, this also is as described in the 2006 Service Manual where only +90° is called for.

I’d be curious if there is any difference in the initial hardness of the Honda and MB washers? The injector bolt crushes the copper which work-hardens it as it deforms into the imperfections on the injector and aluminum well. Presumably the thicker the washer the more turn of bolt would be required to provide the additional crushing to harden the washer throughout its thickness? Or is the stock washer not fully worked after the specified 62 in•lb + 180° ?
 

Nautamaran

2004 140” HRC 2500 (Crewed)
Thanks for that! I agree with Mr Ball: the softer Honda seal is likely able to better conform into the imperfections of the surfaces, but there's really not enough data to know if it then provides the better performance as the final hardness of the seal is unknown. I deliberately left visible concentric scratches in both the well bottom AND my injector body to give the copper seal something to bite into as it was clamped. Copper will work-harden as it deforms past its elastic limit, so it is quite possible that the initial bolt torque works both copper seals to the same final overall hardness, then the turn of bolt simply stretches the fastener to prevent movement under load. One would have to design an experiment to know for certain. We don't know which copper alloy they are, the initial hardness, the percent deformation, final hardness, or final clamping force. We just know they work for a time, then fail. Mine failed after 13 years/150,000 miles, which is likely greater that 3000 hours, 4500 thermal cycles, countless combustion pulses... it's really pretty impressive that they survive as long as they do?

BTW: relative hardness of two materials can be judged by attempting to scratch each with the other, but one really needs a proper indentation test to measure surface hardness.

-dave
(we now return you to your injector thread already in progress :cheers:)
 
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220629

Well-known member
An unconfirmed caution related to the injector pop method. Thanks goes to RileyC. :thumbup:

Yeah, I had a similar experience with my 2005 on injector #1. It started knocking while the hold down bolt was loosened. After removing and replacing the bolt and washer, the knocking noise went away for a couple weeks. It started knocking again one day while on the highway, I pulled over, shut it down and it wouldn’t restart. I tested fuel pressure and compression and they both checked out alright. I finally pulled the oil filter and it was full of metal. I haven’t torn the engine down to see what failed yet. My theory is that when the injector finally freed itself, it allowed all the penetrant that I had doused it with to enter the cylinder and wash it dry basically. It’s just a theory at this point until I tear the engine down. My engine was the original for the vehicle with 270k miles. I hadn’t read about this happening to anyone else’s engine before and thought that mine must be an anomaly. I’ll definitely use the pb blaster more sparingly in the future and may use an injector puller instead of the (loosen hold down and drive method) in the future. Hopefully your engine doesn’t meet the same fate as mine.
Many have used the loosened hold down method to free injectors without problems. The above could be coincidence, but is worth knowing.

vic

Added:
https://sprinter-source.com/forum/showthread.php?t=64478
 
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220629

Well-known member
A comment about injector removal by Sprintguy Carl. :thumbup:

I have to point at the screen all the time in any parts department that I have worked at, that's why the one at work now has 2 screens , one for the parts guy and 1 for the tech to point out parts... so hahahahah I feel your pain.

I am glad that you didn't have to replace that injector , They are pricey but in my line of work it is damned if you don't damned if you do. I like my clients to know before hand and they have a choice, but if it's under warranty that injector is history. Dennis I have not had a case like the one you mentioned yet.. but now I know :thumbup: what to try. Usually I get the engine hot after cleaning as much as possible then shut it down and hose with carb cleaner and let it sit for a while , usually they come out with just a bit of tappt tappy from the slide hammer ..

Carl
 

bklove

New member
Hi, first time posting here. Big thanks to everyone who had put so much into building this. I replaced a fule injector for the second time in two years today. The same one, number 2 I think. Not sure why it blew again. I snaped the bolt that holds the injector in place. I didnt listen to the torque wrench click and went to far. Thought it made a louder click. Anyway with a right angle drill some penetrating oil and a bolt removal tool made to remove screws I was able to back the stud out and finish the job. If you find yourself in this situation hang in there it can be done move slow and be careful I recommend using a speed out style of extractor before moving to an easy out style one. I’ve hade easy outs break in the past. The speed out ones seem more likely to strip before they break. If they don’t work you can still move to an easy out. I used a screw diver to torque the speed out tool as opposed to a ratchet figuring start with as little torque as possible and work my way up if I have to. I also put some of the same ceramic grease on the bolt that I put on the fuel Injector. This likely helped when it came time to remove the stud. Not sure if that’s not recommended but it made fixing my screw up easer.
 

Spendlove57

New member
This thread is immense... I just finished reading ALL of it. Thanks for all the info.

I just finished cleaning everything out and was able to do 20 full turns with the old bolt.
Speaking of the old bolt, I took out the injector and found that the bolt was about half the size. I was scared it broke but I was able to put a small screwdriver more than far enough down so I continued.
So I went and tried to install the injector but I hit the 62in/lb before the bolt even makes it all the way down, about 1/2".
So I cleaned it again and tried the bolt alone and still couldn't get it in.
I got a magnifying glass and a strong light and it almost looks like the hole the bolt goes into is bent...
I'm about to give up and take it to someone but figured I'd see if anyone has any input...
 

Luc

Member
Hello all!

Just reporting in, as I just successfully removed my #1 injector after minor black death. I proceeded after only reading 20 of the first pages of this thread :)

I have ordered a long bottoming tap, but was so eager to clean the threads that I made one out of the bolt. Result is that the hole had no crud at all come up with this modified bolt. I will pass the tap again when I receive it.

When I drenched the tap hole in carb cleaner, it ended up spilling clean cleaner quite fast. This combine with an easy to pass tap-bolt makes me feel confident for reassembly (waiting for the seals from Europarts-sd)

I also wanted to share that I used the loose hold-down bolt and pop-out method. I used a variation I read somewhere where I didn't even drive the van. I just put it in Drive, stepped on the brake, and gave her some boost by accelerating pretty hard. Took 4 seconds to pop, never left the driveway.

Thanks guys, you made all of this possible.
 

Luc

Member
Oh By the way, in case this helps anyone. Calibrating the torque wrench. As I am still waiting for my parts (actually going to MB Stealership to pick a bolt/seal in order to be able to finish this weekend), I had time to double check my tools for reassembly.

I had some doubts on the accuracy of my 3/8" click style torque wrench. So why not calibrate it! I just used a scale to add up the necessary weight for the 12" lever arm that is available on this wrench, this is 5.16 lbs. I then propped this weight on a string. Them the square drive end of the wrench got clamped in a vise, with the handle being suspended in a horizontal position. Put the string with weights at the 12" mark on the handle and then adjusted the setting until i just barely got the click (the actual handle weight factors in also, so I adjusted to just "barely" click).

End result, my 62inlbs actual torque required 73 inlbs setting on my wrench. Cheap and easy verification to be done at home.
 

little worm

New member
I had some doubts on the accuracy of my 3/8" click style torque wrench.
For inch pounds you're going to want a 1/4 torque wrench, unless you like playing with fire :smilewink:

Couldn't tell you how many intake bolts I've snapped using a 3/8 drive torque wrench, but one too many I suppose before I broke down and bought a proper 1/4 drive torque wrench for the inch pound jobs.
 
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Luc

Member
For inch pounds you're going to want a 1/4 torque wrench, unless you like playing with fire :smilewink:

Couldn't tell you how many intake bolts I've snapped using a 3/8 drive torque wrench, but one too many I suppose before I broke down and bought a proper 1/4 drive torque wrench for the inch pound jobs.
Agreed , but in this case it was all I had, and the calibration process showed me that it was repeating the values for this setting. In general, these tools need some sort of calibration at some point in their lifespan. A "homemade" calibration for a specific setting is always relevant and better than going in blind.
 

little worm

New member
Yeah I understand man :) buying that in-lbs wrench off the snapon truck I ended up having a three wrench matching set, I have an old beater 1/2 that I use just for wheels also. I use the good 1/2 basically only on head gasket jobs, the 3/8 covers a lot of duties, it has ft-lbs and in-lbs on it (and Newton Meters of course, all three do) but I was still having a problem snapping in-lb bolts with the 3/8 drive. The 1/4 I added to compliment the set only does in-lbs and I just haven't had a problem since.

Tool guys will usually calibrate your torque wrench for free if you ask them, even if it's not one of their products, tool guys are pretty cool, a lot of them are ex-techs.
 
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little worm

New member
This was years ago but I still had at least close to 20yrs as a tech under my belt, but I specifically remember handing my 3/8 snap on torque wrench back to the tool guy and asking him to check it, it was of course the same week as a snapped bolt so you get pissed... I told him this thing keeps snapping intake bolts on me and in fact my tool guy being an ex-tech informed me that I'd need a 1/4 drive torque wrench to handle intakes and in-lbs jobs with accuracy. Good tool guys know what ya need... Here I am pushing 29yrs wrenching and I'm still learning.
 

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