Extended Oil Drain Schedule

I recently read a thread where a member said he would never go beyond 5000mi on oil because of the engine damage caused by extended (10k mi) oil changes.

What IS the general opinion of those with LOTS of miles on their engines?

Do you guys change at the ASSYST mileage, 10k mi, or every 5k miles?

And is everyone using the fleece filters that I now see advertised (at first all I could get were the pleated paper ones designated for the Sprinters).

Someone recently said if you use paper, the max drain schedule is 3000mi.

When I first changed the oil on my 2005, the OEM I removed was a paper filter. I changed it at OVER 10,000mi as per ASSYST, and the computer said I had something like 4000 mi before it was required yet (which I didn't feel comfortable with).

My last van got upto around 700,000 guided only by ASSYST. Intervals were typically in the 22 to 25,000 miles range over nine years.

OEM filters and specified oil. So much for engine damage!

mean_in_green said:

My last van got upto around 700,000 guided only by ASSYST. Intervals were typically in the 22 to 25,000 miles range over nine years.

OEM filters and specified oil. So much for engine damage!

Click to expand...

Were the OEM filters you used the PAPER ones (dealers didn't used to have fleece ones), or did you obtain the fleece ones that MB said were necessary (even though they were tough to get on this side of the pond)?

I wonder if the oil analysis of the ASSYST system is unable to measure some contaminants that get through the paper ones, and depends upon the fleece to make the ASSYST data valid.

Your 22-25k is amazing. I drive very conservatively and my ASSYST showed only 16k w/ the Mobil 1, and now using MB approved Shell Rotella T-6 synthetic won't go past 11,000mi ASSYST (Truly inferior oil? Assyst not "calibrated" for Rotella?)

I know on the MB Gasoline car forums, they claim that ONLY the 0-40 "EuroSpec" Mobil 1 is approved for the cars in the US, though in Europe, they list many oils as suitable.

All ASSYST does is measure viscosity in a cell with a heating element. It times temperature increase within the cell, differing viscosities taking different times for a given increase or temperature. Other oil qualities aren't assessed.

I don't know which type the filters were Bob - just dealer supplied.

Hi Bob,
Smon (MIG) is in the UK, so a very different emissions package on his T1N.
He's now driving/expediting all over Europe in an NCV3.
As far as using the fleece filters in your Sprinter diesel, I have seen many articles that
suggest the fleece filters are for MB GASOLINE engines only.
On the gas engines the fleece filters do work with the Assyst system to extend the oil change
service interval but seem to be recommended for gasoline engines only.
Also, the whole Assyst system seems to be set up around using the specified and approved
oil (Mobil 1 0w-40 European Car Formula).
Could be that your Assyst system does not work as well or accurately with the Shell Rotella
T-6.
Are you able to get the T-6 in a 0w-40 weight somewhere?
I drove 100k miles on my '06 T1N (No Assyst) with 10,000 oil changes using the correct Mobil 1 0w-40 Euro Car Formula with no problems.
My new NCV3 2010 3500 now has almost 40k miles and it gets changed @ 10 k miles which seems to agree with the Assyst and DEF systems.
If MB will warranty these vehicles for 10K miles using the correct oil, I see no reason to change it sooner.
If they will also warranty Assyst equipped Sprinters for extended service I'd go that way as well, but the NCV3 Assyst lets you know
that it expects to be serviced at 10 k miles as this is when the DEF seems to run out.
Roger

bobinyelm said:

I recently read a thread where a member said he would never go beyond 5000mi on oil because of the engine damage caused by extended (10k mi) oil changes.

Click to expand...

It amazes me how much people resist extended oil changes... based upon what? If extended oil changes were truly damaging engines the manufacturers wouldn't recommend them (especially the very conservative Mercedes Benz.) and you'd be reading about the dangers daily from experts on sites like Bobistheoilguy. The majority of oil experts seem to support extended oil changes. Just because there may be a few technicians who have "looked at used oil under a microscope" so I don't go past XXXX miles, doesn't negate lots of other more detailed research.

[Added: In my opinion Mercedes may have gone too far with recommending a 20,000 mile OCI. I would use something closer to a 10,000 mile OCI. I have no data, only opinion.]

bobinyelm said:

What IS the general opinion of those with LOTS of miles on their engines?

Click to expand...

I don't have LOTS of miles (225,000 330,000+ total, not purchased new), but I can read and do research.

bobinyelm said:

...
And is everyone using the fleece filters that I now see advertised (at first all I could get were the pleated paper ones designated for the Sprinters).

Click to expand...

I have not seen where fleece is recommended for Sprinter diesels. Quite the opposite.

abittenbinder said:

Here is a question and answer reprint from the Sprintervan yahoo group that may be of interest- Andy

Question:
> I was looking on Germanfilters.com since they have the lowest price >on
> filters that I can find. They recently added the fleece media >filters
> that other Mercedes have. It says that they are required for >engines
> with the ASSYST system. Is this true? If not, is it worth the >extra
> $5? Thanks.

>http://www.germanfilters.com/2006-sprinter-van-27-turbo-diesel-c-3791_3798_3799.html

Fleece filters have been discussed here before. My research disclosed
a incompatibility with diesel engine operation. These people show a
fleece filter, Mann part number- HU 718/5. That sounds like the
fleece
part# for the spark ignition, late model MBenz automobiles. If that's
true then it's dimensionally incorrect for Sprinter application as
well as diesel service incompatible. BTW, fleece IS required for MBenz
spark ignition engine ASSYST service intervals. Andy

Click to expand...

Thread here:
https://sprinter-source.com/forums/showthread.php?t=778&highlight=fleece+filter

bobinyelm said:

Someone recently said if you use paper, the max drain schedule is 3000mi.

Click to expand...

Where do they get these tidbits???

bobinyelm said:

When I first changed the oil on my 2005, the OEM I removed was a paper filter. I changed it at OVER 10,000mi as per ASSYST, and the computer said I had something like 4000 mi before it was required yet (which I didn't feel comfortable with).

Click to expand...

From what I have read many Sprinter people who regularly apply used oil analysis get results which show that the ASSYST mileage change count is actually pretty conservative.

bobinyelm said:

Were the OEM filters you used the PAPER ones (dealers didn't used to have fleece ones), or did you obtain the fleece ones that MB said were necessary (even though they were tough to get on this side of the pond)?

I wonder if the oil analysis of the ASSYST system is unable to measure some contaminants that get through the paper ones, and depends upon the fleece to make the ASSYST data valid.

Click to expand...

The proper part number dealer supplied filters are paper.

bobinyelm said:

Your 22-25k is amazing.

Click to expand...

I'm thinkin' 98% of Simon's miles are highway. Even conservative stop and go city driving makes for harder service.

bobinyelm said:

I drive very conservatively and my ASSYST showed only 16k w/ the Mobil 1, and now using MB approved Shell Rotella T-6 synthetic won't go past 11,000mi ASSYST (Truly inferior oil? Assyst not "calibrated" for Rotella?)

Click to expand...

Interesting. From what I've read MB requires the extended ASSYST miles needs MB 229.5 or MB229.51 rated oils. (20130508 Edit: Some sources have indicated that MB does not require only certain spec oils for use with ASSYST. Any proper MB spec oil for Sprinters is acceptable.) To the best of my knowledge all 229.5 and 229.51 oils are full synthetic. Rotella T6 5w-40 Full Synthetic is rated MB228.31 (not MB recommended for Sprinter diesels) and therefore by MB standards is not a good oil for this particular application, not that it's at all an inferior product for MB228.31 spec. (Many experts rate Rotella T6 FS as an extremely good product.) Your comment supports anecdotally that the ASSYST does see a difference?

Edit:
More pondering. The MB228.31 spec oil is intended as an earlier version low ash, extended oil change product. I wonder if MB doesn't recommend MB228.31 for OM612 and OM647 engines because the MB228.31 doesn't perform well enough to meet the same extended oil changes which MB229.5 and 229.51 are designed for? Not that it isn't OK if used with more frequent oil changes. (I guess I'm still trying to find reasons why Shell Rotella T6 FS 5w-40 and its better price point won't work just fine for me. I have never waited for the ASSYST mileage number to change my oil. Always before that.)

bobinyelm said:

I know on the MB Gasoline car forums, they claim that ONLY the 0-40 "EuroSpec" Mobil 1 is approved for the cars in the US, though in Europe, they list many oils as suitable.

Click to expand...

A recent discussion is here.

Approved Oil
https://sprinter-source.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18497

mean_in_green said:

All ASSYST does is measure viscosity in a cell with a heating element. It times temperature increase within the cell, differing viscosities taking different times for a given increase or temperature. Other oil qualities aren't assessed.

Click to expand...

According to the MB BEVO documentation it does more than just have a test cell.

http://bevo.mercedes-benz.com/d/d/en/Spec_215_0.pdf

Page #13

3.12 ASSYST Active Service System
With a production breakpoint of February 1997, the
previous maintenance system for passenger cars with rigid
intervals was superseded by an Active Service System
known as "ASSYST".
Beginning with the W 210 4>Matic in 02/97 and phased in on
the remaining model series as of 06/97 (except G 463, 09/97)
the introduction followed.

i see also:
> Introduction into Service manual passenger cars model
series 210 Innovations February/March 1997
> Video "Model series 210 Innovations model year 1997"
> WIS (microfiche) overall system description,
GF00.20>P>0999AZ


"ASSYST" makes it possible for the first time for Mercedes>
Benz to have service intervals of up to 40,000 km or 2 years
(min. 15,000 km or 1 year). The system takes into account
individually the driving style of the customer by evaluating
engine speed, engine temperature, engine load and time. The timing
of the service required is calculated
and the due date is displayed to the customer in the instrument cluster.

********
FWIW. vic

Added:

Aqua Puttana said:

Old Crows said:

So, ASSYST is actually like the GM oil condition monitor that measures and monitors several operating parameters?

https://www.yourmechanic.com/articl...t-service-indicator-lights-by-brent-minderler

Click to expand...

Yep. It does monitor oil condition and driving/operating.

I can say that I have been impressed that the couple times which I've needed to top off a quart of oil on the 2004, the ASSYST gave me 500 additional miles on the oil change countdown. It wouldn't do that unless the monitor noticed a change from the new oil.

It could be argued that the 500 miles was triggered by the simple level monitor, but from my research it is a more complex monitor system than that.

vic

Click to expand...

Wow!

LOTS of good information here (links especially since they are threads I haven't followed) I plan to spend more time with at leisure, but I feel more informed already.

The info I had about fleece was from discussions a good ways back when the subject came up, and people were saying ASSYST was only if you had a fleece one installed, but even dealers didn't have them available. In the light of day NOW, it was all bogus, evidently. I confess to not being a constant participant here, but come back and review from time to time, or if I have a question.

Rotella T6 Full Synthetic is only available, as far as I know, in 5W40, but since I live in Texas, I figured I didn't need the -20 deg cranking of a "0." MB approves dino 15W40 oils (Delo 400, Rotella T) in their proper temperature range, so I have to believe that Rotella T-6 is superior to them, anyway, as far as flexible viscosity. Yesterday I awoke in Deming NM and my Cummins didn't appreciate cranking even at 20deg (started right up, but cranked noticeably slower with Delo 400); I have a new engine in it, but it's using a qt every 500mi, so I am not going to waste synthetic at that rate*.

I didn't start using the T-6 until it was MB Approved, but I didn't realize it is an inferior oil, and not eligible for ASSYST. I should have been more observant. What IS the proper drain interval for unapproved ASSYST oils, then (I am not within 1000mi of where I can access my manual) Does this mean that Synthetic T6 and regular dino Rotella are equivalent as far as drain intervals? Am I wasting my money buying the twice-as-expensive T6 vs. the dino T? I have to believe its better, but maybe ordering the Mobil product at twice the price of T6 is really worth it?

I don't want to turn this into another oil brand discussion, but rather was looking for some real user-gained knowledge, of which I already feel 75% there!

Thanks-
Bob

*New engine 13k since reman w/ all new cylinders, pistons and rings, but something is obviously wrong since it went to 650mi per qt and is now 500mi/qt as the miles accumulate. The engine runs like a Swiss watch, and I get up to 28mpg highway (empty) w/ a 1-ton dually, but....
The fleet engine shop has agreed to pull the engine and do what's necessary to "make it right," but until then it's getting non-synthetic. Having to carry 2 gal of oil for a DFW-PHX-DFW is a real drag. I may switch to synthetic after the next reman if oil consumption is reasonable.

All ASSYST does is measure viscosity in a cell with a heating element. It times temperature increase within the cell, differing viscosities taking different times for a given increase or temperature. Other oil qualities aren't assessed.

Click to expand...

That's incorrect... the T1N (OM647 at least) measures the oil's dielectric coefficient.
("how good an insulator it is"). That picks up water, metallic and acidic contamination of the oil.
To quote from the 2004 service manual:

Oil quality is detected for indicating the need-based oil change interval.
The oil quality is detected on the basis of the capacitance of the engine oil (dielectrics, does not conduct electricity), this being as much as six times greater in case of poor quality.
Oil level and oil quality are separate of each other.

Click to expand...

--dick

bobinyelm said:

Wow!


*New engine 13k since reman w/ all new cylinders, pistons and rings, but something is obviously wrong since it went to 6500mi per qt and is now 500mi/qt as the miles accumulate. The engine runs like a Swiss watch, and I get up to 28mpg highway (empty) w/ a 1-ton dually, but....
The fleet engine shop has agreed to pull the engine and do what's necessary to "make it right," but until then it's getting non-synthetic. Having to carry 2 gal of oil for a DFW-PHX-DFW is a real drag. I may switch to synthetic after the next reman if oil consumption is reasonable.

Click to expand...

Just try changing oils. I had a motorbike many years ago, that used to use oil at the rate you talk about. I changed to another brand, can't remember what, but might have been Shell, and it dropped to 1L / 2000K which is good.

Charliektm400exc said:

Just try changing oils. I had a motorbike many years ago, that used to use oil at the rate you talk about. I changed to another brand, can't remember what, but might have been Shell, and it dropped to 1L / 2000K which is good.

Click to expand...

I've had 3 different brand 15W40 diesel oils in it, including Rotella T and the Chevron Delo 400, and even WalMart "SuperTech" 15W40 and there was no meaningful change in consumption.

There was a typo in my original post. After overhaul, the oil consumption went from 1qt/150 mi to 1qt per 650mi, and has now started back the other way to 1qt per 500mi.

The rebuilder admitted they may have cracked a piston land or ring while building the engine and has thankfully agreed to pull it out and go back through it. They do hundreds of engines a year and said they NEVER have consumption problems like this, so I suspect something is amiss.

bobinyelm said:

Wow!


...
I didn't start using the T-6 until it was MB Approved, but I didn't realize it is an inferior oil, and not eligible for ASSYST. I should have been more observant. What IS the proper drain interval for unapproved ASSYST oils, then (I am not within 1000mi of where I can access my manual) Does this mean that Synthetic T6 and regular dino Rotella are equivalent as far as drain intervals? Am I wasting my money buying the twice-as-expensive T6 vs. the dino T?.

Click to expand...

I changed some of my wording because I certainly didn't want imply that Roetella T6 FS 5w-40 was at all an inferior oil

I editted and Added said:

Interesting. From what I've read MB requires the extended ASSYST miles needs MB 229.5 or MB229.51 rated oils. To the best of my knowledge all 229.5 and 229.51 oils are full synthetic. Rotella T6 5w-40 Full Synthetic is rated MB228.31 (not MB recommended for Sprinter diesels) and therefore by MB standards is not a good oil for this particular application, not that it's at all an inferior product for MB228.31 spec. (Many experts rate Rotella T6 FS as an extremely good product.) Your comment supports anecdotally that the ASSYST does see a difference?

Edit:
More pondering. The MB228.31 spec oil is intended as an earlier version low ash, extended oil change product. I wonder if MB doesn't recommend MB228.31 for OM612 and OM647 engines because the MB228.31 doesn't perform well enough to meet the same extended oil changes which MB229.5 and 229.51 are designed for? Not that it isn't OK if used with more frequent oil changes. (I guess I'm still trying to find reasons why Shell Rotella T6 FS 5w-40 and its better price point won't work just fine for me. I have never waited for the ASSYST mileage number to change my oil. Always before that.)

Click to expand...

This present thread got me to thinking that maybe Merc didn't want to get into a MB228.31 extended change interval "this oil is OK, but only for ASSYST minus these many miles situation" for some models. As I said above, MB228.31 was an earlier version extended oil change, low SAP oil. They have MB229.5 and MB229,51, so why confuse things?

Everything I read says Shell Rotella T6 is a very good oil. Many turbo diesel owners use it. I'm now a bit over 10,000 miles on my Rotella T6. I'm thinkin' I'll send a sample to Blackstone and see what they say. I won't bother with the extra cost of a TBN test because by viewing other test reports on Rotella T6 I know the add pack is good enough for the change intervals I feel comfortable with. I am still not ready to throw Rotella T6 to the curb for my Sprinter.

bobinyelm said:

I have to believe its better, but maybe ordering the Mobil product at twice the price of T6 is really worth it?

Click to expand...

For the most part the oil experts claim you are wasting your money on full synthetic if you don't use the extended oil change interval it provides.

bobinyelm said:

I don't want to turn this into another oil brand discussion, but rather was looking for some real user-gained knowledge, of which I already feel 75% there!

Thanks-
Bob...

Click to expand...

I'm actually beginning to get addicted to this oil discussion stuff. Trouble is it can go on ad nauseum. vic

P.S. - Sounds like you're dealing with a stand up facility on your rebuild. Good luck.

Vic, I would be very interested to see what your oil numbers turn up like for the T6 after 10K+ miles. I only run the T6 because I really need it here in the winter for starting. I typically run 12-15K between changes and usually need to add 1/2 quart during that time. I'm just about due for another oil change here, and I need to see if it is going to warm up, or if I need to get it into the garage at work for an hour or so sometime. Don't really like changing it on the driveway when it is cold and it is supposed to be 0 F here on Tuesday morning. I'm kind of with you in that all of the testing, plus everything that I have read on that oil indicates that it is a very good product for diesels, so it doesn't seem like the MB engine can be that different that it will also not work well in there. I'm only at 153k+ and I really would like to get close to 400K on this based on my projections and all the family driving.

Chris

For many years BS (before Sprinter), I used to haunt the discount shelves looking for oil for my gassers and wouldn't pay more than $0.89/qt for a branded 10w30 oil (took one to 315k miles, so that worked). So, it was a big attitude change AS to start to use synthetic oil and pay the big bucks for it. But, then I got to thinking about how I wanted this one to last (until I'm too old to drive) and that it wasn't such a big expense after all since ASSYST lets it run 15k (European ASSYST runs much longer due to their better fuel and more lenient emissions requirements) between changes instead of the 3k changes I was doing on my gassers. Also, diesel prices nowadays mean just one tankfull costs more than one oil change with Mobil1 0w40. I certainly don't understand why MB says a 228.31 spec oil "must not be used" (maybe a 228.31 oil doesn't have the soot suspension properties necessary?), but the possibility of saving just a few bucks now to pay much more later just isn't worth it for me.

talkinghorse43 said:

...
But, then I got to thinking about how I wanted this one to last

...
but the possibility of saving just a few bucks now to pay much more later just isn't worth it for me.

Click to expand...

Jon,
I couldn't argue with your logic at all. I suppose one of the things that drives my reluctance to just go over to Mobile 1 is that I hate to spend money needlessly if I can avoid it. I'm so good at wasting it other ways I need to be careful where I can.

That and I doubt that engine oil selection, as long as I stay with quality oil, will be the reason I get rid of my 2004 Sprinter. The paint on my Sprinter is very disappointing. The rust around the windshield and other areas will eventually make it not worth sinking much money into my Sprinter if I have a major failure. To me, at 225,000+ miles it's certainly not worth painting because I'll just live with it as is rather than repair it only to watch it go bad again.

EditWith luck, many, many, many years and thousands of miles from now my guess is that eventually the tranny will go and it will make more sense to search for a used T1N Sprinter with less miles and better body (higher roof) than to put multiple thousands into mine because by then the rust will have won. Don't get me wrong, I want to run it as long as I can. I just don't think whether I use Mobile 1 or not will be the deciding factor.

Were I you, I'd probably being doing just as you are. It's not at all illogical. vic

I go by ASSYST and typically see 14-16K miles between changes. The dealership's service people insisted I had to change it at 5K because "That's what we do for American diesels." I've been running synthetics in my vehicles for over 30 years and using extended change intervals. Never had to do any engine work on any of them. Mileages ran from 184 to 204K when I sold them.

Aqua Puttana said:

The paint on my Sprinter is very disappointing. The rust around the windshield and other areas will eventually make it not worth sinking much money into my Sprinter if I have a major failure. To me, at 225,000+ miles it's certainly not worth painting because I'll just live with it as is rather than repair it only to watch it go bad again.

Click to expand...

That's where I am too with a total repaint, but I am very actively painting any rust I can find to keep it at bay as much as I can. I scrape away the bubbled paint and loose rust with my pocket knife, apply Rustoleum's rusty metal primer with a cheap artist's brush, then a couple days later, I brush over that with Hammerite's glossy white rust cap paint thinned with laquer thinner. Doesn't look the best close up (OK from a distance), but it stops the rust. Although it doesn't look the best, it is effective and the cost (except for the elbow grease) is certainly right. Don't know if you're doing anything about your rust, but leaving it w/o repair is a recipe for disaster. Those paint bubbles trap water and salt and will quickly lead to perforation of the sheet metal.

Aqua Puttana said:

Interesting. From what I've read MB requires the extended ASSYST miles needs MB 229.5 or MB229.51 rated oils.

Click to expand...

That's the way the '03 service manual reads, but the '06 Dodge owner's manual I have doesn't have that requirement - even 228.3 is OK there for ASSYST. Also, the current info in BeVo has no caveat about suitable spec oils and use of FSS (flexible service system) or ASSYST. So, AFAIK, the current info from MB is that even the lowly dino 228.3 (not 228.31) spec oils are blessed by MB for ASSYST & the 612 & 647 engines.

talkinghorse43 said:

...
Don't know if you're doing anything about your rust, but leaving it w/o repair is a recipe for disaster. Those paint bubbles trap water and salt and will quickly lead to perforation of the sheet metal.

Click to expand...

TH43,
I somehow missed Dick's and your reply.

I do try basic repairs on the rust as it emerges. Some of the repairs which I thought I had gotten down to bare metal returned even with using rust combining primer. My comment was actually referring to a complete paint job which would be expensive. That said, I still find myself reflecting on whether to drag out my paint gun and just do a quick paint job (interpret that as "poor") and color change. A smaller section by smaller section approach is the best my skill level and lack of facilities would allow.

I think my windshield has been replaced prior to me owning the van. I believe that has created some of the most worrisome future problems. Were I to need a new windshield I'd try something different on the metal before getting the windshield re-installed. Maybe some pickup truck bedliner coating?

Keeping on topic, maybe we need an extended paint schedule more than one for oil? vic

Here is my experience. I know my Sprinter sees a different kind of work than most here, so, take it as you wish. I drive mostly interstate miles with hundreds of miles between stops (not as many hot-cold cycles between oil changes as a local sprinter would see).

After the second or third oil change using synthetic oil I started using Mobil Delvac 15w40, Shell Rotella T 15w40, or Chevron Delo 15w40, depending on what I find on sale. All three have the MB approval for my engine. I change the oil by the ASSYST, which happens between 14k and 15k miles. I use regular paper filters.

After switching to conventional oil, my van stopped using oil. With synthetic I would have to add 1 qt between changes. Now I don't know if the engine just broke in and stopped using oil, or if the conventional oil stopped it, but I add no oil between changes. I sent a few oil samples in the past for analysis to Blackstone and after 15k the oil still showed as being good for more miles, but I don't see the need of going further, since I only pay $10-$13 per gallon. Also, they showed that my engine was wearing better (read as less wear) than the average of all sprinters that they have tested.

It worked for me so far for 455k miles, and my engine pulls and sounds just like when I bought it new. How long? We will see if the rust doesn't kill it too soon (I've got big rust problems).

Ciprian said:

After the second or third oil change using synthetic oil I started using Mobil Delvac 15w40, Shell Rotella T 15w40, or Chevron Delo 15w40, depending on what I find on sale. All three have the MB approval for my engine. I change the oil by the ASSYST, which happens between 14k and 15k miles.

Click to expand...

You might want to consider that Shell Rotella T is no longer 228.3 approved. It's 228.31 approved and MB's latest info (BeVo) is that 228.31 approved oils "must not be used" for 612 & 647 engines. The Mobil and Chevron oils above seem to still be 228.3 approved. My '03 service manual stipulates that only full synthetic oils (like Mobil 1 0w40) should be used for ASSYST schedules, but MB has backed off this stipulation and your experience shows that 228.3 is OK for ASSYST.