Lithionics Lithium Battery Drop In & Upgrade To Full Coach Operation!

dpc21unityrl

New member
Yes, make sure GoPower is set to AGM. Here is a thread for a solar installation on a 2021 Unity RL that you should find interesting, https://sprinter-source.com/forums/index.php?threads/96802/.
Thank you for the quick reply! That is an interesting thread; knowing what I do now I would not have ordered factory solar either. On the topic of solar, in previous posts you discussed installing an additional fuse when upgrading to the Victron, but I assume it's OK to not do this with the downside being the lack of flexibility in disconnecting? Your knowledge is sincerely appreciated.
 

SSTraveler

2014 LTV Unity Murphy Bed
Read post #9 here, https://sprinter-source.com/forums/index.php?threads/67873/#post-1016663. At a minimum, you need a correct rated switch to disconnect the solar panels output from the solar controller. Many people choose to install a properly rated circuit breaker, because you can use that as an On-off switch with the added benefit of circuit protection. You also need a properly rated circuit breaker or fuse between the solar controller and batteries. If you have the Leisure solar option, they do put a fuse just before the battery connection. I like a circuit breaker rather than a fuse because you can use a circuit breaker as an On-Off switch. Leisure splices a 10 awg fuse holder to the 8 awg positive wire running to the GoPower Solar Controller. It is clearly identified in their wiring diagram. A 10 awg wire is good for 30a in less than an 8 feet length. I guess the wire run from the battery box to the GoPower controller location is more than 8 feet so Leisure's use of a #10 fuse holder with a 30a fuse is pushing the limit of the 10 awg wire splice. See post #3, https://sprinter-source.com/forums/index.php?threads/96773/. I recommend removing the Leisure fuse and installing a properly rated circuit breaker between the batteries and solar controller.

As a new Leisure owner you may find this thread informative as well, https://sprinter-source.com/forums/index.php?threads/93361/.
 
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Parks2C

Member
I have read and re-read this thread in preparation for the battery upgrade, and have found it incredibly useful. I have begun mapping out the locations of the various devices, and have tentatively decided upon this rear closet on our FreeStyle SS for the Xantrex 3000 Inverter, as well as all the Buss Bars, fuses, and breakers that are appropriate for locating close to the batteries. The batteries (2) 315A Lithionics, will fit neatly on the old battery shelf. The Inverter will fit where the "X" is marked. The back wall is covered in something that appears kin to indoor-outdoor carpet. Do I need to cover the carpet with something (Aluminum heat shield?) to protect it from the Inverter? How much heat do they give off? I read in this thread, I believe, that the Inverter should ordinarily NOT be located near the batteries, but that since the Lithionics are sealed and do not out-gas, it could be located nearby in this situation.

Another question: LTV used a very heavy sealant around the battery cables and piping where it perforated the floor or Sprinter walls. I will need to seal similar new perforations, as well as reseal those that I have had to remove. Can someone tell me what that stuff is? The local RV shop had no idea.Rear Sprinter Closet.jpg
 

SSTraveler

2014 LTV Unity Murphy Bed
I would recommend using a piece of sheet metal to cover the carpet for the area that inverter is going to sit against. I really don't know if the inverter case gets that hot, but certainly having it connected to sheet metal would further act as a heat sink whereas carpet doesn't. You can buy various sizes of galvanized steel or aluminum sheets at Lowe's or Home Depot. The Lithionics batteries are perfectly safe to install next to an Inverter. The Lithionics battery case is vacuum sealed and they are UL Tested and Certified not to out gas. You could have that Lithionics battery sitting right up against an Inverter with no issues whatsoever. I use the standard Great Stuff foam sealant, https://www.lowes.com/pd/GREAT-STUF...Cracks-12-oz-Spray-Foam-Insulation/1000673769, to fill in holes. Leisure uses the black version and you can get Great Stuff in black, https://www.amazon.com/Great-Stuff-99054816-Multipurpose-Insulating/dp/B01MEH89XY/ref=sr_1_15?crid=15ESQEBMJH1YK&dchild=1&keywords=foam+sealant&qid=1617376325&sprefix=Foam+sea,aps,272&sr=8-15, but in my mind not worth the extra expense just for black.
 
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JHMooney

2018 Unity MB
Which one did you use and do you have a picture of it's installation?
I used a Blue Seas System dual circuit mini switch which has the same footprint as the single circuit one LTV installed https://smile.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00DY88WZK?psc=1&ref=ppx_pop_mob_b_asin_title

The switch is an easy swap and handles the 4/0 cables fine. As I said earlier the dual circuit switch turns the coach power and inverter off and on at the same time. I don’t think I’ll encounter a situation where I want one circuit on and the other off but we’ll see. I used the old single circuit switch as a solar disconnect and mounted it where the old GoPower controller was. The Victron controller is mounted behind the pop up TV like yours. I do plan on installing a heat shield between the wall and the controller, just haven’t gotten back to that yet. Right now I’m using the Bluetooth app and haven’t decided if I want a remote panel or not. The other item I haven’t decided if I want or not is a shunt for battery monitoring. I don’t really look at that level of detail and basically just want to know if the batteries are charged fully at the end of the day so between the Victron app, the Xantrex remote panel and the Onan generator panel I may have more information than I know what to do with.

The 4 flex panels are producing about 150 watts now. I still have to get on the roof and rewire them in series parallel.
E39DD2B0-D042-4875-8066-70B254243ED2.jpegEDAA8FF6-CF55-4AB7-ABEB-CEFC56DA6073.jpegD6A8074F-6CA8-43F7-A1E0-0B170D1418CF.jpeg
 

SSTraveler

2014 LTV Unity Murphy Bed
That wall gets very hot when the sun shines on it, I mounted my controller off the wall so there would be air flow around it. Did you put anything between the wall and your sheet metal, like Reflectix insulation, to try and block the heat as well.
 

JHMooney

2018 Unity MB
That wall gets very hot when the sun shines on it, I mounted my controller off the wall so there would be air flow around it. Did you put anything between the wall and your sheet metal, like Reflectix insulation, to try and block the heat as well.
Yes I cut a piece of reflectix the size of the metal sheet. I would have done the whole wall but I didn’t have enough. Leaving air space as you did would be better but I was concerned about clearing the big TV.
 

SSTraveler

2014 LTV Unity Murphy Bed
I used a Blue Seas System dual circuit mini switch which has the same footprint as the single circuit one LTV installed https://smile.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00DY88WZK?psc=1&ref=ppx_pop_mob_b_asin_title

The switch is an easy swap and handles the 4/0 cables fine. As I said earlier the dual circuit switch turns the coach power and inverter off and on at the same time. I don’t think I’ll encounter a situation where I want one circuit on and the other off but we’ll see.
You did a very nice job on your entire electrical upgrade, and I do hope Santa brings you a lovely Lithionics 12v315GTX battery to finish off your wonderful setup!

I think you are right, a dual or double pole battery switch is the way to go, particularly with a Lithionics battery that has it's own On-Off switch. I think it's important to disconnect everything from the battery when parked between trips or for longer storage, and using a double pole battery switch let's you use a single switch to disconnect both house and inverter from the battery. If you ever need to work on 12vdc system, just power the Lithionics battery off with its convenient On-Off switch. I found a BlueSea Double pole switch (5510E) rated at 350a continuous, https://www.amazon.com/Blue-Sea-Systems-Circuit-Battery/dp/B006FXVFOG/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&gclid=CjwKCAjwu5CDBhB9EiwA0w6sLejiFhbvd-NFZuVczeO1uJvJiR9lhIzXwHg4ZECzhvUL8y4kCSrg-BoCOlEQAvD_BwE&hvadid=329692235979&hvdev=t&hvlocphy=1025496&hvnetw=g&hvqmt=e&hvrand=392116054688318762&hvtargid=kwd-628252970839&hydadcr=9436_9900778&keywords=blue+sea+5511e&qid=1617182398&sr=8-1&th=1 and the BEP Marinco Pro Installer 770-DP 400a continous rated switch, https://www.amazon.com/Marinco-Prod...o+installer+double+pole&qid=1617441548&sr=8-2. In my opinion it's important to use a switch that is rated at equal to or greater than the largest fuse in your system. In the case of my setup with the Xantrex 3000w Inverter that has 350a Class T Fuse, the switch needs to be rated for at least 350a. I wouldn’t want the switch to fail before the fuse can do it's job. These higher rated switches are larger, with a cut out diameter of around 3.6" in diameter. I think I would have gone this route as well if I would have thought this particular aspect of the project though better. It's very difficult to find the right switch in the sea of switches on the market. I also didn't know exactly how I'd be using the inverter since I never used my old Magnum MM612, it was just to small to be useful.
 
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Parks2C

Member
Another question: LTV used a very heavy sealant around the battery cables and piping where it perforated the floor or Sprinter walls. I will need to seal similar new perforations, as well as reseal those that I have had to remove. Can someone tell me what that stuff is? The local RV shop had no idea.View attachment 176802
I got a response from Triple E: the sealant is butyl rubber. It is available in a caulk tube.
 

SSTraveler

2014 LTV Unity Murphy Bed
I'm on my first camping trip to a State Park where I have shore power and water hookups. This is my first opportunity to test my new Lithionics 315ah battery, Xantrex 3000w Inverter, and my Dometic 13,500 btu Penguin ll air conditioner with the added EasyStart module. When I started my "How long will the 315ah battery run my air conditioner?" test, it was 78° degrees outside and over the course of my testing the temperature increased to 85°(Real Feel 89°). I had the thermostat set on 75° at first but then as it got hotter outside., I put it down to 74°. I had less than 10a solar contribution. The sun was shining on the passenger side and directly on the inverter compartment. My Isotherm compressor refrigerator ran during the test as well (power usage 2.5a on average). I was able to run the air conditioner for 4 hours before switching back to shore power. I switched back to shore power when my Lithionics 315ah battery was at 21% SOC and Time Remaining was 33 minutes, at my current usage rate. So I could have continued to run the AC even longer. I did learn a few things that are significant and had to make some inverter settings changes.

1. The Lithionics App and Xantrex Inverter App battery voltages match at 100% battery full. However, the Xantrex voltage reading gets less accurate as the battery is used up. I had the Xantrex Low Voltage Cutoff set to 12.1v, but at 40% SOC battery I got an inverter low voltage shutdown. The Xantrex voltage was reading about 3 volts less than the Lithionics App battery voltage, so when the air conditioner compressor kicked on it blipped the voltage down to 12.1 for a second and that was enough to trigger the inverter low voltage shutdown. It immediately restarted but I don't want any interruptions like that when I'm using it, so I changed my Low Voltage Cutoff setting to 11.8v and didn't have anymore issues. For the way I plan on using my setup I really don't need an Inverter Low Voltage Cutoff but the Xantrex doesn't let you disable it, so I'll set it using my 3v difference and that should solve the problem but still give me a reasonably comparable, with the actual Lithionics voltage, Inverter Voltage Cutoff. Since the Lithionics shuts itself down at 12v (Never Die 10% reserve) it doesn't really matter what you set the Xantrex low voltage cut off as long as it's sufficiently low not to kick the inverter off when using the battery down. I don't know if the Victron Multiplus is better synchronized to the Lithionics voltage than my Xantrex, but that is something to watch in case you need to change your Victron Low Cutoff setting. These screen shots were taken at the same time (air conditioner compressor running) and see how off the Xantrex inverter readings are as compared to the Lithionics readings.
Screenshot_20210413-135910_Li3 Battery.jpgScreenshot_20210413-135925_FXC Control.jpg

2. After I adjusted some of the Xantrex inverter settings, everything was smooth sailing. The air conditioner continued to run fine down to 21% SOC, when I switched back to shore power. I did notice that my AC thermostat setting needed to be lowered by 1 degree to give me the same level of cooling that I experience on shore power. I really don't know why this is because I had plenty of inverter power, 122vac before the air conditioner compressor kicks on and then stayed at 119v or higher, so very good power. Here are the amp draws, the fan draws 22-25a and when the compressor kicks on the draw jumps to 125a-155a.

3. Typically I experience pretty poor pedestal power at State Parks, consequently it doesn't support running the coach and recharging the battery at my inverter 50a Charger Current setting, so I had to reduce it to 20a to keep it above 114vac when the air conditioner runs. So keep this in mind because you may have to adjust that setting.

4. My Victron BMV-712 external battery monitor, doesn't stay synced with the true SOC of the Lithionics battery. The Victron runs a few percent less, even when you sync it to 100% often.

5. Even with the sun shining directly on my inverter compartment the Xantrex had no temperature issues. From the outside I could hear the cooling fans running, but inside I couldn't hear a thing. So the Xantrex operating isn't a disturbance at all!

Overall I'm very pleased with my results, in fact getting 4 hours of air conditioner run time exceeded my expectations!
I'm guessing in 95-100 degrees temperatures my AC run time could get cut in half, but I'll soon be testing it because in another month the SC temperatures will peak at that for the rest of the summer. I'll report again when I have results in those temperatures. Here are my new Xantrex inverter settings.
20210414_093514.jpg20210414_093720.jpgo
 
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SSTraveler

2014 LTV Unity Murphy Bed
Yes, I was getting less than of 10a, because I did have some shading on one side of my panels. I updated my post to reflect this.
 
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SSTraveler

2014 LTV Unity Murphy Bed
I talked with Lithionics about the fact that the Lithionics App and Xantrex Inverter App battery voltages match at 100% battery full when you first start using the system. But, the Xantrex voltage reading doesn't stay synchronized with the Lithionics App BMS readings as the battery is used down. I was told that the Lithionics APP reads voltage inside the battery (most accurate) and the Xantrex App displays the voltage through the cables, and that a difference/drop in inverter voltage values is totally normal. However it is imperative that you correct the Xantrex Low Battery Cutoff setting so that it still triggers an Inverter shutdown above the Lithionics NeverDie Low Voltage Cutoff (LVC) of 12.0v (From Lithionics App). Accordingly to Lithionics, "A battery that enters the LVC must be IMMEDIATELY recharged to prevent battery damage." So you need to be mindful of the voltage difference and subtract it, as I did, from the original 12.1v Xantrex Low Battery Cutoff setting, this correction not only supports smooth inverter operation, but still triggers an inverter shutdown above the Lithionics LVC or 12.0v. Once the inverter shutdowns down it is best to begin recharging the Lithionics battery or you definitely you must immediately begin charging it once the NeverDie battery reserve Cutoff occurs, or you can damage the battery. I've attached the Lithionics battery programming guide which give lots more very technical information for those interested in that.

So to recap, when I started my air conditioner run test off my Lithionics battery, I had the Xantrex Low Voltage Cutoff set to 12.1v, but at 40% SOC, I got an Inverter low voltage shutdown because at that point my Lithionics battery was reading 12.81v and my Inverter was seeing 12.5v. The Xantrex voltage was reading about 0.3 volts less than the Lithionics App battery voltage, so when the air conditioner compressor kicked on it blipped the voltage down to the Xantrex's 12.1v Cutoff setting for a second and that was enough to trigger the inverter low voltage shutdown. Even though the Lithionics battery was actually at a little over 12.4v, so it was apparent to me that I had to reduce the Xantrex Low Voltage Cutoff setting by 0.3v in order to not have any more inverter interruptions. So I changed my Xantrex Low Voltage Cutoff setting to 11.8v and didn't have anymore issues. According to Lithionics it's normal and necessary to make an Inverter Low Voltage Cutoff setting compensation adjustment to keep the voltages matched between the Lithionics App and the Xantrex Inverter, enabling smooth functionality at less than 40% SOC. I'm going to run a test everytime I go camping for the next few times, so I can ensure my Inverter 0.3v compensation factor remains the same in all my tests. I don't want this to be something I have to worry about in the future. I plan to also use the system down to the Inverter Low Voltage Cutoff setting to ensure that it does shutdown inadvance of the Lithionics NeverDie Reserve shutdown of 12.0v.

I would love to hear from Victron Multiplus owners who have done their own tests to see if it stays better synchronized to the Lithionics App voltage values than my Xantrex, but certainly this phenomenon is something to watch just in case Victron Multiplus owners need to make a compensation adjustment to the Multiplus Low Voltage Cutoff setting, as I did.

I created a programming guide to capture my operational experience and troubleshooting to help others.
 

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Klipstr

2018 Wonder FTB
I think you mean 0.3V not 3V.

And thanks for the info. I will plan accordingly on my two upcoming installs.

The key take away for me on your post is that one does not want to fool around with over discharge just like with FLA batteries! And as you pay much more for these batteries than FLA one should be even more careful with them.
 

hoosierrun

Active member
I don't have your setup, but i can tell you that on my 2000 watt Magnum, I have the low voltage cutoff set at 11.7 and I typically see about 12 volts on my Battle Born batteries. Even with 4/0 cable, I was surprised to see that much voltage drop. There may be some error between what the inverter reports and the Victron BMS, possibly a few tenths of a volt. With my AC compressor running, I typically see about 160 amps drawn, but have seen some wide variations, presumably related to outside temperature affecting compressor head pressure. I believe I have seen current draw readings vary from about 145 amps DC to near 200 amps (higher as battery voltage goes down). Do you recall what the current draw was with your compressor running? I realize in your previous tests from the above posts, you likely had some solar contribution and I don't know if that was counted.
 
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SSTraveler

2014 LTV Unity Murphy Bed
I think you mean 0.3V not 3V.

And thanks for the info. I will plan accordingly on my two upcoming installs.

The key take away for me on your post is that one does not want to fool around with over discharge just like with FLA batteries! And as you pay much more for these batteries than FLA one should be even more careful with them.
It's funny how a little thing like a decimal point completely changes things! ?
 

SSTraveler

2014 LTV Unity Murphy Bed
I don't have your setup, but i can tell you that on my 2000 watt Magnum, I have the low voltage cutoff set at 11.7 and I typically see about 12 volts on my Battle Born batteries. Even with 4/0 cable, I was surprised to see that much voltage drop. There may be some error between what the inverter reports and the Victron BMS, possibly a few tenths of a volt. With my AC compressor running, I typically see about 160 amps drawn, but have seen some wide variations, presumably related to outside temperature affecting compressor head pressure. I believe I have seen current draw readings vary from about 145 amps DC to near 200 amps (higher as battery voltage goes down). Do you recall what the current draw was with your compressor running? I realize in your previous tests from the above posts, you likely had some solar contribution and I don't know if that was counted.
It fluctuated between 125a-155a. I did have less than 10a solar contribution, but I just remembered yesterday that I also run my water heater on electric, which has a 12a draw, so that might have been in play as well. Next time I test it I'm only going to have my Isotherm refrigerator and air conditioner running, nothing else. So I'm hoping my numbers are more consistent and can be accounted for. I'm sure I'll learn something new every test run.
 

msmolow

2019 Unity CB / 2018 Chas
I would love to hear from Victron Multiplus owners who have done their own tests to see if it stays better synchronized to the Lithionics App voltage values than my Xantrex
Victron Multiplus 3000, Victron MPPT, Victron SmartShunt, Victron Cerbo GX.

Voltage read by the shunt is fairly close to the Lithionics App. The Cerbo reports the shunt voltage to the Multiplus. Without a Cerbo the shunt would report direct to the Multiplus. The SOC % has a wide variance with the Victron reading significantly lower.

Screenshots were taken with solar charging on a cloudy Northeastern Pennsylvania day. I had solar off for a number days to discharge the battery down to 77% SOC, then turned solar back on yesterday. It's been rainy up here so it hasn't reached 100% yet.

Screenshot_20210416-162200_Li3 Battery.jpg
Screenshot_20210416-162207_Li3 Battery.jpg
Screenshot_20210416-162234.jpg
 
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