SSTraveler
2014 LTV Unity Murphy Bed
Here is a new video from Mike Mas that is very educational for what I've covered.
Where Do You Start for a Lithium Battery and Coach Electrical Upgrade?
- Thread starter SSTraveler
- Start date
hoosierrun
Active member
Keep in mind that most modern inverter/charger combinations used in RV's have a "search watts" feature, that if properly set up, significantly reduces idle draw if you forget to turn it off. I think I have mine set at 30 watts which will keep the inverter in the search mode. That uses far less battery power consumed by the inverter than just leaving it turned on. Essentially, the electronics in the inverter takes a quick sample of any potential current draws every few seconds and it won't fire up until it reaches the user programmed setting. Why do I have mine set at 30 watts which is higher than the default of 5 watts? Well, it is because of the TV that LTV puts in your RV. It has a pre-warm up feature that allows the picture to come up more quickly. That is fine if you always have shore power, but if you forget to turn off your inverter, the pre-warm feature sucks amps from your battery. Also, a lot of people leave those wall chargers plugged in with nothing connected. They still suck power when the inverter is on There have been times when I wanted to charge a smart phone but haven't reached the 30 watt turn-on threshold. In those cases, just flipping on the TV and turning it off will start up the inverter because the load goes easily over 30 watts and when turning off the load, the inverter does not go back into search mode until the load is about 10 to 15 watts lower than my programmed turn on setting of 30 watts.
Since I don't see this discussed very often, I thought I would point it out. I believe both Magnum and Victron have this feature but I'm sure other manufacturers do as well.
hoosierrun
Active member
That is a nice video! I feel that is the future of most motorhomes.... a completely propane free unit too. It is almost as if they built the motorhome around a power system. I think I heard the AC was 7 to 9 amps? That would be incredible. And a fridge that draws 2-1/2 amps when actually running. There is some nice equipment coming on the market now. No doubt pretty costly until investment costs are recovered. LTV will have to up their game quickly.
Every time I see a video like this, I have one regret; I should have installed 3 Lithionics 315ah instead of 2. Amazing batteries!
Here’s the good news, luvuman.....I’m pretty sure Lithionics has at least one more 315ah battery in stock they’d be happy to sell you. And if you decide to do it we’d all benefit from the amazing documentation I’m sure you‘d post detailing your installation.
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For sure!!!!Here’s the good news, lvuman.....I’m pretty sure Lithionocs has at least one more 315ah battery in stock they’d be happy to sell you. And if you decide to do it we’d all benefit from the amazing documentation I’m sure you‘d post detailing your installation.
SSTraveler
2014 LTV Unity Murphy Bed
In preparation for installing a larger Inverter to power some or all of your 120vac circuits, you must remove your current Leisure Inverter or Inverter Charger to return the Circuits they supply to standard 120vac (non-inverted) Circuits in your 120vac Power Distribution panel/breaker box. This couldn't be easier. Here is what I have to do on my 2014, see attached picture 1. If your Leisure Owners Manual has a schematic of the 120vac wiring for your floorplan you can use that to see what circuit(s) the inverter supplies. If you have a newer model Leisure, your inverter/charger maybe supplying more than one circuit (see attached picture 2). If this is the case you will completely remove it because you'll be rewiring your 120vac Power Distribution panel/breaker box differently from what I have to do because my power distribution breaker box is a single 30 amp service box. Which we'll cover later when we discuss the wiring of the power distribution panel. Consult your wiring diagrams and Leisure Owners Manual for greater detail. Everyone with an inverter or inverter/charger suppling a single circuit like mine does you can follow this same procedure. I have a Magnum MM612 inverter with no battery charger. It is attached to the circuit wiring of Breaker #4, the Entertainment outlets, 2 outlets (TV cabinet and behind driver seat bed outlets). The wire is 14/2 awg Romex solid wire (typical residential wire) rated at 15 amps. So once the inverter is removed the circuit will be a standard 15 amp rated circuit and outlets, not the 6 amp limited by the inverter circuit you had before.
To remove the MM612 Inverter, first switch the main battery switch to off and either completely disconnect from shore/generator power or flip the #4 Entertainment breaker off. Disconnect the AC In and AC Out wires from the Inverter and reconnect them using a junction box, wire nuts (wrap with electrical tape, and install a cover plate. Now you've returned circuit breaker #4 to a standard 15a circuit, the outlets can now be used for items rated up to 15a. To completely remove the Inverter; Disconnect, remove, and tape off the battery wire connections (-12vdc & +12vdc & ground wire) until you decide next steps. Remember they are still connected to the batteries when you turn battery switch back on, so make sure the positive cable is taped off well so it won't short on anything.
To remove the MM612 Inverter, first switch the main battery switch to off and either completely disconnect from shore/generator power or flip the #4 Entertainment breaker off. Disconnect the AC In and AC Out wires from the Inverter and reconnect them using a junction box, wire nuts (wrap with electrical tape, and install a cover plate. Now you've returned circuit breaker #4 to a standard 15a circuit, the outlets can now be used for items rated up to 15a. To completely remove the Inverter; Disconnect, remove, and tape off the battery wire connections (-12vdc & +12vdc & ground wire) until you decide next steps. Remember they are still connected to the batteries when you turn battery switch back on, so make sure the positive cable is taped off well so it won't short on anything.
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SSTraveler
2014 LTV Unity Murphy Bed
Nate from Explorist Life on YouTube puts out great, cover the basics (on all fronts of electrical), videos for DIY RV enthusiasts that you may find helpful, https://youtube.com/c/EXPLORISTlife.
SSTraveler
2014 LTV Unity Murphy Bed
While removing the Leisure inverter isn't that complicated, turning your current 120vac power distribution panel/breaker box into a sub panel supplied by a New Main 30a Breaker which supplies the inverter which in turn supplies the Leisure breaker box. When on shore/generator power the Inverter passes-through 120vac to the Leisure Breaker box and when on batteries only, the inverter directly supplies 120vac (inverted 12vdc battery power) to the Leisure Breaker box. Adding a new 30a main breaker or rewiring the 120vac power distribution panel/breaker box on Leisure models that have the ability to be used a a split panel (main buss on one side and a sub panel buss on the other) can be one of the more complicated elements of an Electrical upgrade.
When installing a 3000w or smaller inverter, you must decide which 120vac circuits in your breaker box you want to run off the inverter/batteries. In the case of a 3000w Inverter, it can supply 120vac (inverted 12vdc battery power) for the entire coach including your air conditioner. I personally think the only inverter size to choose is a 3000w Inverter because there's only about $200 difference between a 2000w and 3000w inverter so why not just put the larger one in and then you always have the ability to use anything in the coach, as your battery capacity supports. Even if you only have 200ah of Lithium batteries you would still be able to run the air conditioner for about 45 minutes if you wanted too. If you are going through all this effort to upgrade then why not set yourself up with complete coach functionality. You choose what you want to run, and later if you realize you do want to have more air conditioner, microwave, or any other large appliance/equipment run time. You'll only need to add more batteries. I see the electrical upgrade as the foundation for all future upgrades. Whether you want to change to a compressor refrigerator, induction cooktop, Mini Oven, electric heating, CPAP machine, more Lithium batteries, etc., your electrical system upgrade is ready to handle your wants and needs!
The power distribution panels/breakers boxes used by Leisure over the years have gotten more DIY upgrade friendly over the model years. The breaker box in the pre-2016 models, is a WFCO8955 power distribution box with a typical single 30a service breaker box on one side and a 12vdc Fuse panel on the other side. itvalso has a 120vac to 12vdc power converter (supplies 12vdc to coach so your batteries don't have too) and a 3 stage battery charger (for lead acid batteries only). The WFCO8955 only has 5 slots for breakers in it. So in order to add a 3000w Inverter, as a new 120vac power supply/shore or generator power supply pass-through, a new 30a main breaker must be added after the Automatic Transfer Switch (see fig. 1). Then the output of that new main becomes the input of the inverter and the inverter output becomes the new main input of the Leisure WFCO8955. In essence, making it a sub panel fed by a new main breaker/inverter.
I believe in 2016 Leisure started using a WFCO8930/50 which has split busses or 2 busses that can be used for a single 30a service or using both to create a 50a service or a split 30a service. Before the WFCO8930/50 can support it's use as a split buss system, you must remove a small section (1/2") from the center of the neutral buss bar (see fig. 2) because the inverter must not share a neutral buss with a different power supply, in this case the shore/generator power supply. The inverter has it's very own phase so the circuit breaker box must have the capability for two separate phases, positive and neutral can't be mixed. Each incoming power supply to must be wired to one of the two Split busses. For example, Shore/Generator power to the Left and the left neutral and inverter power to the right and right neutral.
Many people perform the modification to separate the single neutral bar into 2 because then you can use the WFCO8930/50 to create two 30a service busses to use to connect an inverter into (see fig. 3 [figure 3 is for a 2020 Leisure the power distribution concept is exactly the same with the split busses and split neutrals]) the power distribution system versus adding a new 30a main breaker (as described above for pre-2016 models with the WFCO8955). You can use either method, which ever way you think is easiest. DiverBob and Msmolow have threads that cover this 2016 and newer rewiring approach if you do a search.
When installing a 3000w or smaller inverter, you must decide which 120vac circuits in your breaker box you want to run off the inverter/batteries. In the case of a 3000w Inverter, it can supply 120vac (inverted 12vdc battery power) for the entire coach including your air conditioner. I personally think the only inverter size to choose is a 3000w Inverter because there's only about $200 difference between a 2000w and 3000w inverter so why not just put the larger one in and then you always have the ability to use anything in the coach, as your battery capacity supports. Even if you only have 200ah of Lithium batteries you would still be able to run the air conditioner for about 45 minutes if you wanted too. If you are going through all this effort to upgrade then why not set yourself up with complete coach functionality. You choose what you want to run, and later if you realize you do want to have more air conditioner, microwave, or any other large appliance/equipment run time. You'll only need to add more batteries. I see the electrical upgrade as the foundation for all future upgrades. Whether you want to change to a compressor refrigerator, induction cooktop, Mini Oven, electric heating, CPAP machine, more Lithium batteries, etc., your electrical system upgrade is ready to handle your wants and needs!
The power distribution panels/breakers boxes used by Leisure over the years have gotten more DIY upgrade friendly over the model years. The breaker box in the pre-2016 models, is a WFCO8955 power distribution box with a typical single 30a service breaker box on one side and a 12vdc Fuse panel on the other side. itvalso has a 120vac to 12vdc power converter (supplies 12vdc to coach so your batteries don't have too) and a 3 stage battery charger (for lead acid batteries only). The WFCO8955 only has 5 slots for breakers in it. So in order to add a 3000w Inverter, as a new 120vac power supply/shore or generator power supply pass-through, a new 30a main breaker must be added after the Automatic Transfer Switch (see fig. 1). Then the output of that new main becomes the input of the inverter and the inverter output becomes the new main input of the Leisure WFCO8955. In essence, making it a sub panel fed by a new main breaker/inverter.
I believe in 2016 Leisure started using a WFCO8930/50 which has split busses or 2 busses that can be used for a single 30a service or using both to create a 50a service or a split 30a service. Before the WFCO8930/50 can support it's use as a split buss system, you must remove a small section (1/2") from the center of the neutral buss bar (see fig. 2) because the inverter must not share a neutral buss with a different power supply, in this case the shore/generator power supply. The inverter has it's very own phase so the circuit breaker box must have the capability for two separate phases, positive and neutral can't be mixed. Each incoming power supply to must be wired to one of the two Split busses. For example, Shore/Generator power to the Left and the left neutral and inverter power to the right and right neutral.
Many people perform the modification to separate the single neutral bar into 2 because then you can use the WFCO8930/50 to create two 30a service busses to use to connect an inverter into (see fig. 3 [figure 3 is for a 2020 Leisure the power distribution concept is exactly the same with the split busses and split neutrals]) the power distribution system versus adding a new 30a main breaker (as described above for pre-2016 models with the WFCO8955). You can use either method, which ever way you think is easiest. DiverBob and Msmolow have threads that cover this 2016 and newer rewiring approach if you do a search.
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SSTraveler
2014 LTV Unity Murphy Bed
On the 2020 and newer models, Leisure has gone to the Progressive Dynamics PD55K003, which is exclusively a 120vac power distribution panel/breaker box. It is designed to support 2 separate 30a services and has the split neutrals to boot! So it's a great panel to support Lithium battery/major electrical upgrades. The 2020 and newer owners are fortunate that Leisure switched to a panel that easily supports future electrical upgrades, which Leisure must be considering as well. Figures 4-6, show the details for the integration of a Multiplus 3000w to supply the entire coach when on battery power. As you can see the split busses are used to bring the Shore/Generator power into the main on the right bus, which feeds the Inverter AC In. Then the Inverter AC Out feeds the Left side Bus and supplies the entire coach of breakers. In this way the Inverter functions as a Passthrough, so when on shore/generator power the coach will be supplied with 120vac. When not on Shore/Generator power, the Inverter supplies 120vac to the entire coach using the batteries. The legend on the overall coach wiring diagram was changed to reflect the before and after configuration.
Note: When rewiring the WFCO8930/50 or PD55K003 as described above, you loose the Automatic Switching feature of the Dometic 3 way refrigerator power supplies. If you was to maintain this feature, simply move the refrigerator breaker to the right side bus (shore/generator power fed Main breaker).
Another point of interest, for owners who opted for the Automatic Generator Starting (AGS) feature, the Shore Sensing adapter is plugged into an outlet underneath the Wardrobe in the UMB models (shown on the diagrams as a "New Hallway Outlet") and I have suggested relocating it to one of the plain front panels just below the drawers, creating a "hallway" of sorts outlet. Definitely having an outlet near the floor in the bathroom would be very handy. You'll also want to disconnect the Dometic AGS air conditioner module located under the wardrobe, since you'll no longer rely upon the thermostat to start your generator to supply the air conditioner since you have Lithium batteries/3000w inverter capable of operating the Air conditioner (only with an EasyStart).
Note: When rewiring the WFCO8930/50 or PD55K003 as described above, you loose the Automatic Switching feature of the Dometic 3 way refrigerator power supplies. If you was to maintain this feature, simply move the refrigerator breaker to the right side bus (shore/generator power fed Main breaker).
Another point of interest, for owners who opted for the Automatic Generator Starting (AGS) feature, the Shore Sensing adapter is plugged into an outlet underneath the Wardrobe in the UMB models (shown on the diagrams as a "New Hallway Outlet") and I have suggested relocating it to one of the plain front panels just below the drawers, creating a "hallway" of sorts outlet. Definitely having an outlet near the floor in the bathroom would be very handy. You'll also want to disconnect the Dometic AGS air conditioner module located under the wardrobe, since you'll no longer rely upon the thermostat to start your generator to supply the air conditioner since you have Lithium batteries/3000w inverter capable of operating the Air conditioner (only with an EasyStart).
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hoosierrun
Active member
I always like to have at least 1 outlet powered off the main breaker in case the inverter craps out. They are not infallible. Failures are rare but like any complex piece of electronics, they can fail. Picture #3 shows no breaker on the right hand side for an outlet that could be powered from shore or generator.
Most of the larger inverters have a ’pass through’ feature. This means that if it senses AC power via the generator or plug-in shore power then it just passes the AC power through the inverter, even if the inverter is powered off. With the way my LTV is wired all outlets are powered at all times unless I‘m not plugged in or the Inverter is off. I need to check the electrical schematics but I believe in the Victron 3K inverter the pass through is via a relay that if the inverter fails the relay still passes external AC through it. I need to validate that statement as I’m running off of memory and I misplaced my manual.
hoosierrun
Active member
That is correct. It is an internal or 2nd transfer switch commonly called 'pass through'. I know of 1 person that had a Magnum and that transfer failed on their unit.
I thought of that as I connected all the AC wiring to my MultiPlus. Of course, the transfer switch LTV installs could cause a similar problem depending on how it failed. In either of these cases I planned on disconnecting AC In and AC Out, and joining them together temporarily with wire nuts so I'd have AC power on all outlets. I tried this on the MultiPlus and it took a few minutes. I carry a cheap 300W backup inverter too.
SSTraveler
2014 LTV Unity Murphy Bed
Let's talk battery charging, there are several ways the House batteries are charged. There is no charging of the chassis battery from the house side. The only way the chassis battery gets charged, is when the engine is running and the alternator charges it (if you do a search you'll find lots of chassis battery trickle charging solutions you can consider). The House batteries get charged in 4 ways;
1) For 2019 and older models, there is Alternator charging when the Engine is running via the isolator solenoid under the passenger seat. The isolator solenoid and isolation relay delay (IRD) makes sure the chassis battery gets charged before the isolator solenoid is told to close. This solenoid ties the engine alternator charging system to the House batteries. When the engine is shut off the alternator charging stops. For 2020 and newer models Leisure replaced the isolator solenoid/IRD with a 30a Sterling DC-DC charger for battery charging via the alternator when the engine is running. With regard to charging from a Mercedes Sprinter, if you have a 50a DC-DC charger, the batteries will charge at a rate of 50a per hour when the engineis running from the alternator. But you need to remember that Mercedes doesn't recommend idling a Sprinter engine for longer than 15 minutes. So you must be driving your Leisure Sprinter motorhome to recharge your battery. The DC-DC charges at a rate of 50a/hour, so for example it takes 6 hours to recharge 300ah of battery capacity. Same for shore/generator power charging, if the charge setting on the inverter is set at 50a (which also means per hour);
2) Shore Power comes to the coach through the Automatic Transfer Switch (selects shore or generator power) and battery charging occurs via the on board battery chargers as follows; WFCO 8955 Power Distribution panel/box 55a battery charger (2011-2015 models), Magnum 1000w/1200w inverter/battery chargers (2015-2018 models), and the Xantrex 2000w Freedom inverter with 80a battery charger. All these on board battery chargers charge the house batteries when the battery switch is on, consult your Leisure owners manual for more information. The early model chargers were only for lead acid batteries (flooded wet cell or AGM batteries), the newer models with Pure Sine Wave inverter/chargers or the new Xantrex 2000w inverter/charger have more advanced settings that include Lithium battery charging profiles (consult your manual for more information). Having an inverter charger with Lithium battery settings makes it easier to upgrade to Lithium batteries. In the case of the Xantrex inverter it actually has the Lithionics Lithium battery charging profile uploaded as the LFP charger setting, so pairing the Xantrex with Lithionics batteries makes for a very nice power system and the setup is super easy;
3) Generator charging occurs virtually the same as the shore power description above, with the exception that the generator's 120v AC power is routed to the coach thru the Automatic Transfer Switch (ATS) that senses when the generator is on and available to provide power. When plugged into the shore power, the ATS will automatically provide AC power to all AC appliances. To operate your appliances from the on-board generator, simply start the generator and the ATS will (after 20-30 seconds) automatically transfer the electrical power to the AC appliances. The time delay of 20-30 seconds allows the generator voltage to stabilize. And;
4) Solar charging via flexible solar panels and the GoPower 30a solar charge controller. If your Leisure was equipped with this optional solar system then your batteries are always being charged via this system. The solar panel/controller output is connected directly to the batteries, so it doesn't matter which position your battery switch is in to receive solar power. I believe the GoPower controller has a setting for Lithium batteries, but I would recommend replacing it with a Victron Smart MPPT Controller because it is much more efficient, has a more advanced Lithium battery charging profile setting, and would do a much better job of charging Lithium batteries.
So with this information you can decide which charging components might need replacing to support a move to Lithium batteries.
1) For 2019 and older models, there is Alternator charging when the Engine is running via the isolator solenoid under the passenger seat. The isolator solenoid and isolation relay delay (IRD) makes sure the chassis battery gets charged before the isolator solenoid is told to close. This solenoid ties the engine alternator charging system to the House batteries. When the engine is shut off the alternator charging stops. For 2020 and newer models Leisure replaced the isolator solenoid/IRD with a 30a Sterling DC-DC charger for battery charging via the alternator when the engine is running. With regard to charging from a Mercedes Sprinter, if you have a 50a DC-DC charger, the batteries will charge at a rate of 50a per hour when the engineis running from the alternator. But you need to remember that Mercedes doesn't recommend idling a Sprinter engine for longer than 15 minutes. So you must be driving your Leisure Sprinter motorhome to recharge your battery. The DC-DC charges at a rate of 50a/hour, so for example it takes 6 hours to recharge 300ah of battery capacity. Same for shore/generator power charging, if the charge setting on the inverter is set at 50a (which also means per hour);
2) Shore Power comes to the coach through the Automatic Transfer Switch (selects shore or generator power) and battery charging occurs via the on board battery chargers as follows; WFCO 8955 Power Distribution panel/box 55a battery charger (2011-2015 models), Magnum 1000w/1200w inverter/battery chargers (2015-2018 models), and the Xantrex 2000w Freedom inverter with 80a battery charger. All these on board battery chargers charge the house batteries when the battery switch is on, consult your Leisure owners manual for more information. The early model chargers were only for lead acid batteries (flooded wet cell or AGM batteries), the newer models with Pure Sine Wave inverter/chargers or the new Xantrex 2000w inverter/charger have more advanced settings that include Lithium battery charging profiles (consult your manual for more information). Having an inverter charger with Lithium battery settings makes it easier to upgrade to Lithium batteries. In the case of the Xantrex inverter it actually has the Lithionics Lithium battery charging profile uploaded as the LFP charger setting, so pairing the Xantrex with Lithionics batteries makes for a very nice power system and the setup is super easy;
3) Generator charging occurs virtually the same as the shore power description above, with the exception that the generator's 120v AC power is routed to the coach thru the Automatic Transfer Switch (ATS) that senses when the generator is on and available to provide power. When plugged into the shore power, the ATS will automatically provide AC power to all AC appliances. To operate your appliances from the on-board generator, simply start the generator and the ATS will (after 20-30 seconds) automatically transfer the electrical power to the AC appliances. The time delay of 20-30 seconds allows the generator voltage to stabilize. And;
4) Solar charging via flexible solar panels and the GoPower 30a solar charge controller. If your Leisure was equipped with this optional solar system then your batteries are always being charged via this system. The solar panel/controller output is connected directly to the batteries, so it doesn't matter which position your battery switch is in to receive solar power. I believe the GoPower controller has a setting for Lithium batteries, but I would recommend replacing it with a Victron Smart MPPT Controller because it is much more efficient, has a more advanced Lithium battery charging profile setting, and would do a much better job of charging Lithium batteries.
So with this information you can decide which charging components might need replacing to support a move to Lithium batteries.
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SSTraveler
2014 LTV Unity Murphy Bed
When I analyze my charging systems ability to support Lithium batteries, I realize several things will have to be replaced. In my 2014, I had an isolator solenoid/IRD and when it failed, I replaced it with a BlueSea ML-ACR automatic isolator relay. So I will need to replace that with a DC-DC charger like the Sterling 30a version that Leisure uses in it's newer models. There are many power variations of a DC-DC charger on the market, but it is widely recommended not to exceed a 50a model. There is a great possibility that if the house battery charging from the alternator is not limited to 50a, then you could burn up your alternator. Lithium batteries have a much higher rate of charge than lead acid batteries and as such can draw as much as 250a of charge current (larger banks). Therefore, you need a DC-DC charger to limit the amount of charging power the house Lithium batteries can draw when the engine is running and the alternator is charging. The isolator solenoid is rated at 200a so that is why it must be replaced with a DC-DC charger. The other feature you want in a DC-DC charger, is that it isolates the chassis battery from the 12vdc house/ battery system when the engine is off and the alternator is no longer charging. If the chassis battery isn't isolated from the house side then the chassis battery could be discharged from the house when parked.
For shore/generator power charging, I have the WFCO8955 power center with an inboard 55a charger. This charger is really only for lead acid batteries. I recently replaced the battery charger in the WFCO8955 with the Progressive Dynamics PD4655 55a charger. This will support Lithium batteries since it has a 14.4v boost feature that is perfect to get Lithium batteries to 100% SOC. If I hadn't just replaced my charger in the WFCO8955, I would have simply removed the old antiquated 12vdc converter/charger because I need to get a new Inverter that has Lithium battery charging capability. I currently have a Magnum 600w inverter that has no charging feature. I would replace this with a 3000w Victron Multiplus or Xantrex Inverter/chargers because if I change to Lithium batteries, I want to be able to run my whole coach off them. I need to replace the inverter to a 3000w to achieve that. I would also want the more sophisticated advanced Lithium battery charging that these inverter brands offer. I can use the inverter, in charge only mode, when on shore/generator power to charge the Lithium batteries at up to 90 amps. I think it is a waste to replace a inverter with anything less than a 3000w because the price difference is so small between a 2000w and a 3000w, why not set yourself up with the ability to run your whole coach from battery if you choose? In order to run the air conditioner from a 3000w Inverter you must add an EasyStart to dampen the compressor amp spike from like 60a to 21a. Then a 3000w inverter can run the air conditioner with everything else with no worries of tripping a breaker or motors overheating, which increases the number of amps to operate. Leisure really should add a 3000w Inverter to their future Lithium battery option.
I did not get the Leisure solar option, rather I installed my own Monocrystalline glass panels and Victron 100/30a Smart MPPT Controller, which has advanced Lithium battery settings. I believe the GoPower PWM controller has a Lithium setting but it is not really that efficient. I would recommend replacing it with a Victron Smart MPPT. It is very easy to replace since the connections are very similar. I would also replace the flexible solar panels and go with the monocrystalline glass panels, as they are much better power producers than the flexible panels. If you do a search you'll find lots of information on replacing the flexible panels and GoPower controller.
So in summary, for me to switch to Lithium batteries I would need to install a DC-DC charger and an inverter/charger with Lithium battery settings.
For shore/generator power charging, I have the WFCO8955 power center with an inboard 55a charger. This charger is really only for lead acid batteries. I recently replaced the battery charger in the WFCO8955 with the Progressive Dynamics PD4655 55a charger. This will support Lithium batteries since it has a 14.4v boost feature that is perfect to get Lithium batteries to 100% SOC. If I hadn't just replaced my charger in the WFCO8955, I would have simply removed the old antiquated 12vdc converter/charger because I need to get a new Inverter that has Lithium battery charging capability. I currently have a Magnum 600w inverter that has no charging feature. I would replace this with a 3000w Victron Multiplus or Xantrex Inverter/chargers because if I change to Lithium batteries, I want to be able to run my whole coach off them. I need to replace the inverter to a 3000w to achieve that. I would also want the more sophisticated advanced Lithium battery charging that these inverter brands offer. I can use the inverter, in charge only mode, when on shore/generator power to charge the Lithium batteries at up to 90 amps. I think it is a waste to replace a inverter with anything less than a 3000w because the price difference is so small between a 2000w and a 3000w, why not set yourself up with the ability to run your whole coach from battery if you choose? In order to run the air conditioner from a 3000w Inverter you must add an EasyStart to dampen the compressor amp spike from like 60a to 21a. Then a 3000w inverter can run the air conditioner with everything else with no worries of tripping a breaker or motors overheating, which increases the number of amps to operate. Leisure really should add a 3000w Inverter to their future Lithium battery option.
I did not get the Leisure solar option, rather I installed my own Monocrystalline glass panels and Victron 100/30a Smart MPPT Controller, which has advanced Lithium battery settings. I believe the GoPower PWM controller has a Lithium setting but it is not really that efficient. I would recommend replacing it with a Victron Smart MPPT. It is very easy to replace since the connections are very similar. I would also replace the flexible solar panels and go with the monocrystalline glass panels, as they are much better power producers than the flexible panels. If you do a search you'll find lots of information on replacing the flexible panels and GoPower controller.
So in summary, for me to switch to Lithium batteries I would need to install a DC-DC charger and an inverter/charger with Lithium battery settings.
One thing of which to be aware is that Victron recommends a minimum 5 kVa generator with their 3000 watt inverter/charger because it is possible to overload the generator with the power demanded by the MultiPlus's charger. Because we have smaller generators you will have to experiment with some Multiplus settings. That will require you to purchase their MK3-usb interface. While some settings are available on the Victron Connect app or Touch 50 remote monitor, the interface is required to change those settings.
One of the nice features of the Victron 3K inverter is that you can limit the current draw through shore or generator power. At home I set the input limit to 10 amps for my outside 15a outlet. At campgrounds I change that limit back to 30 amps. Especially for plugging into a friends outside outlet it makes sure you don’t trip their breaker. For home use this means that I don‘t have to have a dedicated power line to the RV when it is simply sitting in storage to keep the batteries charged and the coach warm over the winter.
SSTraveler
2014 LTV Unity Murphy Bed
Since I'm planning to use a Lithionics 12v315GTX battery, adding a DC-DC charger like the 30a Sterling BB1230 is easy. I just need to replace the Isolator Solenoid/isolation relay delay (or in my case the BlueSea ML-ACR since my isolator solenoid failed) under the passenger seat. Very easy with this diagram. I'm adding a Trik-L-start to mine so my chassis battery stays charged from any source charging my new Lithionics house battery!
I selected the Lithionics 12v315GTX (315ah) Lithium battery for mainly the following reasons;
-Uses cells with lower Internal resistance (critical factor for battery life and Battery Monitoring)
-Advanced Smart Internal Battery Monitoring Sytem (with Bluetooth connectivity)
-Powder coated aircraft grade Aluminum case that is IP67 Rated (Ingress protection code [IP] 67 means battery can be immersed
into water 1m deep for 30 minutes)
-Superior High Power Density (30% smaller than 3 x 100ah batteries)
-Up to 250a continous charge/discharge current
-Underwriters Laboratories (UL) testing and advanced safety features (Every component in the Lithionics battery is &L listed)
-Battery switch on the battery itself to turn it on/off
-Grade A Battery Cell Technology (Large Prismatic cells with only 0.25 - 0.50 milli-ohm cell impedance)
-Higher discharge surge rate (meaning it can handle heavy load surges like when the air conditioner compressor turns on)
-Internal Battery Heater (uses 1a/hour to maintain Battery temperature between 35-40° F)
-And the list goes on and on, See this thread for more information, https://sprinter-source.com/forums/index.php?threads/91673/page-3.
This 315GTX addresses all my wants for a Lithium Battery. I particularly love that it gives me 315ah in my step located battery box (my 2014 box measures 25.75"x11.5"x9.25" with a top side opening of 25-3/16"x8-3/8") and that it has an internal Bluetooth battery monitoring system, internal heater and on/off safety switch. I contacted Lithionics yesterday and Steve Tartaglia, the Owner/General Manager responded to me personally. He was so nice, he patiently listened and responded to all my questions. He said I should get over 2 hours of air conditioner operation from the 315ah. I'll really just be overjoyed with 2 hours, so that was good to hear. He's an avid RVer himself and simply loves Leisure's. Since I don't need any technical support, I got what I believe to be an outstanding price, so I ordered one and should get it in the next couple of weeks. As Klipstr points out, we can be our own best technical support!
So contact Lithionics, make sure you mention you are a Leisure owner, describe your project, how many 12v315GTX battery (s) you are looking for, what DIY level of capability you have (I believe the less technical support you need the better the price), and see what Lithionics can do for you. He doesn't just want to push batteries out the door, he wants to make sure Lithionics batteries meet the need and are safely installed, so he won't just give a flat price. But take it from me, the Special Pricing for Leisure owners, was very competitive with other batteries I've considered. The fact that Lithionics offers such a high quality battery, superior capacity in a compact size, (fits in the step battery box), with all the advanced features, I didn't hesitate, I order one!
Lots of informative videos on their YouTube account, https://youtube.com/c/LithionicsBattery.
I selected the Lithionics 12v315GTX (315ah) Lithium battery for mainly the following reasons;
-Uses cells with lower Internal resistance (critical factor for battery life and Battery Monitoring)
-Advanced Smart Internal Battery Monitoring Sytem (with Bluetooth connectivity)
-Powder coated aircraft grade Aluminum case that is IP67 Rated (Ingress protection code [IP] 67 means battery can be immersed
into water 1m deep for 30 minutes)
-Superior High Power Density (30% smaller than 3 x 100ah batteries)
-Up to 250a continous charge/discharge current
-Underwriters Laboratories (UL) testing and advanced safety features (Every component in the Lithionics battery is &L listed)
-Battery switch on the battery itself to turn it on/off
-Grade A Battery Cell Technology (Large Prismatic cells with only 0.25 - 0.50 milli-ohm cell impedance)
-Higher discharge surge rate (meaning it can handle heavy load surges like when the air conditioner compressor turns on)
-Internal Battery Heater (uses 1a/hour to maintain Battery temperature between 35-40° F)
-And the list goes on and on, See this thread for more information, https://sprinter-source.com/forums/index.php?threads/91673/page-3.
This 315GTX addresses all my wants for a Lithium Battery. I particularly love that it gives me 315ah in my step located battery box (my 2014 box measures 25.75"x11.5"x9.25" with a top side opening of 25-3/16"x8-3/8") and that it has an internal Bluetooth battery monitoring system, internal heater and on/off safety switch. I contacted Lithionics yesterday and Steve Tartaglia, the Owner/General Manager responded to me personally. He was so nice, he patiently listened and responded to all my questions. He said I should get over 2 hours of air conditioner operation from the 315ah. I'll really just be overjoyed with 2 hours, so that was good to hear. He's an avid RVer himself and simply loves Leisure's. Since I don't need any technical support, I got what I believe to be an outstanding price, so I ordered one and should get it in the next couple of weeks. As Klipstr points out, we can be our own best technical support!
So contact Lithionics, make sure you mention you are a Leisure owner, describe your project, how many 12v315GTX battery (s) you are looking for, what DIY level of capability you have (I believe the less technical support you need the better the price), and see what Lithionics can do for you. He doesn't just want to push batteries out the door, he wants to make sure Lithionics batteries meet the need and are safely installed, so he won't just give a flat price. But take it from me, the Special Pricing for Leisure owners, was very competitive with other batteries I've considered. The fact that Lithionics offers such a high quality battery, superior capacity in a compact size, (fits in the step battery box), with all the advanced features, I didn't hesitate, I order one!
Lots of informative videos on their YouTube account, https://youtube.com/c/LithionicsBattery.
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SSTraveler
2014 LTV Unity Murphy Bed
So now that I have the Lithionics 12v315GTX 315ah battery selected and plan on installing it in my step box, replacing my two 6v AGM batteries, I need to figure out which inverter I'm selecting. Since I want to be able to run my air conditioner, which I already added a Micro-Air Easy-Start too, I need a 3000w pass-through Inverter/Charger (just going to refer to this as Inverter for the rest of my discussion). The only two Inverters I would consider are the Victron Multiplus 12v 3000w and the Xantrex Freedom XC Pro 12v 3000w with the optional Bluetooth Remote Panel. I love Victron components and consider them to be top of the line, but since I need to install an Inverter as close to the battery as possible for the maximum power efficiency (the shorter the length of wires between batteries and components the more power efficient) then i need to examine the space I have nearby. There really is only one place and that is in the exterior compartment to the left of the door. Actually Leisure started installing the inverters in this compartment starting with 2017 models, I believe. So in looking at this exterior compartment, which I really rely upon for storage, I realize I don't want to give up much of it to an Inverter. The basic power and charging technical specifications of both inverters are essentially equal. So I'm selecting the Xantrex Freedom XC Pro 12v 3000w Inverter because it is smaller at 16"L x5"h x12"w, particularly important is it's only 5" high, pretty slim!
I currently have a Victron SmartSolar 100/30 MPPT Bluetooth controller and a Victron BMV-712 Bluetooth Battery Monitor. It would have been nice to stay with Victron components but if I look at the system I'd want to install to stay with Victron Multiplus Inverter, I'd have to add the Cerbo GX (Victron compartment integration), and the Victron Touch 50 color Monitor for the Cerbo GX. Plus the Victron Multiplus Inverter is more complicated with lots of settings. You need other adapters and a computer to perform future firmware updates and to access all the settings. Bottom line, the Victron Multiplus is more complicated. Yes, it has lots of extra features but how many of those will you really be using? So I opted for a Xantrex Freedom XC Pro 12v 3000w, which is a simpler, smaller, highly capable pass-through Inverter/Charger. I really like that Lithionics and Xantrex have partnered together and as such Xantrex uploaded the Lithionics Lithium battery charge profile into the Xantrex, so its super easy to program the Xantrex for the Lithionics by just selecting one mode. I also like the Xantrex Remote Bluetooth Control panel and I plan on installing next to my other panel on the side of the TV cabinet at my door. Since the Lithionics 12v315GTX has a fabulous built in Bluetooth Battery Monitoring Sytem, I may remove my Victron BMV-712 since I don't really need it with the Lithionics battery. If I do keep it, thankfully Lithionics puts out a Settings guide so I can program it to be more accuratly matched with the Lithionics Internal Battery Monitoring Sytem. I may just install the Xantrex Remote display in the BMV-712 spot, I'll figure that out during my installation. It's really just an expensive battery voltage display! I then will just have the Victron SmartSolar controller, that I will continue to view via Bluetooth on my phone/tablet. In doing my comparison of Inverters I realized to really create a top of the line system for the batteries you have more complexity and more components, that look great and integrate well, but may not be completely necessary if you really plan on just turning the inverter on/off when you want to use it for inverting the battery to 120vac and/or using the battery charging feature.
I think if you are installing more than 600ah of batteries, the the Victron components would make for a nice system, because you have more space options than just trying to stay within a few feet of the door's step battery box.
I currently have a Victron SmartSolar 100/30 MPPT Bluetooth controller and a Victron BMV-712 Bluetooth Battery Monitor. It would have been nice to stay with Victron components but if I look at the system I'd want to install to stay with Victron Multiplus Inverter, I'd have to add the Cerbo GX (Victron compartment integration), and the Victron Touch 50 color Monitor for the Cerbo GX. Plus the Victron Multiplus Inverter is more complicated with lots of settings. You need other adapters and a computer to perform future firmware updates and to access all the settings. Bottom line, the Victron Multiplus is more complicated. Yes, it has lots of extra features but how many of those will you really be using? So I opted for a Xantrex Freedom XC Pro 12v 3000w, which is a simpler, smaller, highly capable pass-through Inverter/Charger. I really like that Lithionics and Xantrex have partnered together and as such Xantrex uploaded the Lithionics Lithium battery charge profile into the Xantrex, so its super easy to program the Xantrex for the Lithionics by just selecting one mode. I also like the Xantrex Remote Bluetooth Control panel and I plan on installing next to my other panel on the side of the TV cabinet at my door. Since the Lithionics 12v315GTX has a fabulous built in Bluetooth Battery Monitoring Sytem, I may remove my Victron BMV-712 since I don't really need it with the Lithionics battery. If I do keep it, thankfully Lithionics puts out a Settings guide so I can program it to be more accuratly matched with the Lithionics Internal Battery Monitoring Sytem. I may just install the Xantrex Remote display in the BMV-712 spot, I'll figure that out during my installation. It's really just an expensive battery voltage display! I then will just have the Victron SmartSolar controller, that I will continue to view via Bluetooth on my phone/tablet. In doing my comparison of Inverters I realized to really create a top of the line system for the batteries you have more complexity and more components, that look great and integrate well, but may not be completely necessary if you really plan on just turning the inverter on/off when you want to use it for inverting the battery to 120vac and/or using the battery charging feature.
I think if you are installing more than 600ah of batteries, the the Victron components would make for a nice system, because you have more space options than just trying to stay within a few feet of the door's step battery box.
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