36Th America's Cup: The Boats

[CJPJ]

 

[Roamers]

I preferred the Cup when the crews skill was more important than the technology of the vessel.

 

[RVBarry]

How long ago was that?
I remember reading about secret keel designs a long time back.

 

[Roamers]

Conner's keel and micro-surface; a blast from the past!

Edit: My bad-Australian winged keel.

 

[220629]

How long ago was that?
I remember reading about secret keel designs a long time back.

You're right that it was quite a while ago. There has always been technology involved. It's only fairly recently that things advanced to the point where crew members need to wear flak jackets and helmets to protect them in case... when things go wrong.

vic

 

[CJPJ]

AC75's spec'd: current Cup holder New Zealand ~ 75ft monohull, retractable hydrofoil each side and a deep rudder with a hydrofoil on the end: Top speed is expect to be over 50 knots or +60mph.

Ah .. the old 12 meters, .. and all the law suits.

 

[hugh]

I preferred the Cup when the crews skill was more important than the technology of the vessel.

I think you are underestimating how hard it is to control those boats.

Significant crew skill is required.

 

[220629]

I think you are underestimating how hard it is to control those boats.

Significant crew skill is required.

Now that you point it out, the words could have been better chosen.

"I preferred the Cup when the crews skill was more important than the technology of the vessel."

I took it for what I *believe* was intended.

There is no doubt that it takes considerable skills to handle and race one of these newer cutting edge boats.

I have raced on multihulls. Not foiling boats, but speed machines as compared to monohulls. Some love the speed. For me, especially when it comes to match racing, I prefer boats that are a bit down speed and maneuverable. For the America's Cup races I miss the close boat handling in the pre-starts and out on the course.

I believe that a factor in the the changes to the high technology increasingly faster boats was that it is supposed to make it more exciting for viewers. Maybe that helps the general public. Watching sailboat races is as exciting as watching grass grow if you don't understand and appreciate the game. Are these new speed machines more attractive to the the general public?

I miss the more old fashioned style match racing. But... I'm an old guy.

vic

 

[Roamers]

Hugh

No doubt. My guess is the biggest change in skill came for the helmsman when up on the foils; probably pretty unforgiving to any loss of attention. I speculate the foil adjustment is hydraulic, so the toggle of a switch; helmsman better make sure the light is green before initiating a maneuver.

 

[220629]

Hugh

No doubt. My guess is the biggest change in skill came for the helmsman when up on the foils; probably pretty unforgiving to any loss of attention. I speculate the foil adjustment is hydraulic, so the toggle of a switch; helmsman better make sure the light is green before initiating a maneuver.

Yes.

Watching that video it must be difficult to get any real feel from the helm. Good drivers are very intuitive anyway, but it must be even more important with these new boats.

As you mentioned already, the crew really needs to work together to keep everything going the way they need it to.

vic

 

[CJPJ]

Rembering the Jet with forward pitch wing; <it was so responsive to direction, that with out the stabilizing computer the pilot would instantly lose control.

Don't know: these AC75's maybe use computer stabilizing .. confident they'll still be the maneuverable and close boat handling pre-starts and out on the course. Still there will be old fashion crue sailing skills.

 

[hugh]

I suspect you guys are much more knowledgeable about sailing than I am. I'm landlocked and my sailing experience is laughable. The foiling boats fascinate me and the speed is phenomenal. Lately I've been following the Vendee Globe and America Cup preparations.

I watched a discussion on the America's Cups boats and how hard they are to handle. They specifically mentioned the axis of rotation and how on foiling boats it is not parallel to the keel. That is why they sometimes pitch so crazily, you can see it in the video in the OP. They said the axis of rotation is about a line from the foil to the rudder.

I don't know if they are computer controlled, I got the impression from one of the discussions that the foiling Vendee Globe boats did have computer controls but that the America's cup boats did not.

 

[220629]

I haven't really watched any of the latest stuff except what was posted here. Given the technology and the speeds involved in my mind I see a kid with a game controller in his hands. I'm sure that isn't the case. It will be interesting to see how the pre-start goes. One hook of the upright foils and it's game over for that start. Maybe... if neither has intact foils do they just head down the course in displacement mode?

vic

 

[Roamers]

Sailing on foils looks nuts to me!

In my younger days I sailed (raced) on the Mississippi River. With the bluffs, the wind does not have a constant direction (river sailers are the best sail trimmers); rounding a mark takes on a new challenge when effectively you are on a conveyor belt heading down river at 2-3 mph, but the mark isn't; need to be able to read the water to avoid wing dams.

I only had my boat on a lake once; kinda boring.

 

[CJPJ]

Man and Machine

A thread Flier: Top tier racing side note~ you might want to watch this weekends race.
The F1 season has already been won by Hamilton. Easily argued Hamilton had the best car: Mercedes and sponsors spent $440 million on this racing season, outspent everyone.
• Well Hamilton can't race this weekend because he is COVID-19 positive.
So a young (George Russel) driver that's been outstanding while driving a cheep f1 car and is in last place. He will get to race the Hamilton/ Mercedes car.
Bet he will win.
_________
What were the times in qualifying?

1. Lewis Hamilton (Gbr) Mercedes GP 1min 27.264secs
2. Valtteri Bottas (Fin) Mercedes GP 1:27.553
3. Max Verstappen (Ned) Red Bull 1:27.678
4. Alexander Albon (Tha) Red Bull 1:28.274
5. Sergio Perez (Mex) Racing Point 1:28.322
6. Daniel Ricciardo (Aus) Renault 1:28.417
7. Esteban Ocon (Fra) Renault 1:28.419
8. Pierre Gasly (Fra) Scuderia AlphaTauri 1:28.448
9. Lando Norris (Gbr) McLaren 1:28.542
10. Daniil Kvyat (Rus) Scuderia AlphaTauri 1:28.618
11. Sebastian Vettel (Ger) Ferrari 1:29.149
12. Charles Leclerc (Mon) Ferrari 1:29.165
13. Lance Stroll (Can) Racing Point 1:29.557
14. George Russell (Gbr) Williams 1:31.218
15. Carlos Sainz (Spa) McLaren 1:28.975
16. Antonio Giovinazzi (Ita) Alfa Romeo Racing 1:29.491
17. Kimi Raikkonen (Fin) Alfa Romeo Racing 1:29.810
18. Kevin Magnussen (Den) Haas F1 1:30.111
19. Romain Grosjean (Fra) Haas F1 1:30.138
20. Nicholas Latifi (Can) Williams 1:30.182

What do we know about the Bahrain International Circuit?

• Circuit length: 5.412km
• First grand prix: 2004
• Laps: 57
• Race distance: 308.238km
• Race lap record: 1:31.447 (Pedro de la Rosa, 2005, McLaren)
• 2019 winner: Lewis Hamilton, Mercedes
• Number of corners: 15
• Overtaking chances: Pretty decent overall, though again, you're most likely to see it along the long pit straight, with the aid of DRS into the heavy braking hairpin at turn one. A couple of other opportunities throughout the lap, though.

 

[CJPJ]

Ketchup

 

[220629]

I thought some people might find this video helpful. I find many of the Mozzy Sails videos interesting.

A comment about the racing from a personal perspective.

I find it amusing how the commentators try to keep the chatter and excitement going even when one boat legs out to a 300 meter lead. They even seem to choose camera angles to make it look like the boats are closer together than they really are.

It is true that the boats are fast. That means that they can chew up a 300 meter lead very quickly, but that assumes that the other boat slows down or stops. Without huge windshifts or an equipment failure a 300 meter lead is king within the narrow confines of the present America's Cup courses. Once one boat legs out too far the relatively narrow course limits, and the foiling boats pretty much set up a predictable drag race.

vic

 

[elemental]

I used to work for a large research & development company the CEO of which was big into supporting the America's Cup races a couple of decades ago. The technological improvements (unfortunately highly specialized in many cases) in the boats is amazing. I would expect nothing less than race coverage that plays up the competition which can otherwise seem like slow action because of the length of time over which strategies play out, but leads aren't always leads and some races are much more competitive than they appear from just comparing boat positions.

The choice of how to get across the starting line plays a large role in determining the finish of the race (assuming roughly equal boat and crew capabilities), assuming no mistakes are made. But the stakes are high and every subsequent maneuver must be carried out nearly flawlessly in order to maintain an advantage. Skippers read the wind and water, and use relative boat position as well as tacking rules both offensively and defensively. Getting the most enjoyment out of watching the races requires knowing these rules (or at least knowing they exist and listening to good commentators) because it's very different from watching cars go around a road course.

I used to think that only catamarans had the potential for truly spectacular cock-ups, but at first the winged keels and now the highly performant but tetchy hydrofoils bring the excitement of catamarans to the monohulls.

 

[220629]

...

I used to think that only catamarans had the potential for truly spectacular cock-ups, but at first the winged keels and now the highly performant but tetchy hydrofoils bring the excitement of catamarans to the monohulls.

I was in no way trying to say that the crew work isn't a huge factor. The boats and wind can be finicky. It takes a skilled team to keep ahead once you are out in front. That said, the experience and skill levels of the America's Cup teams is such that spectacular cock-ups are rare... not unheard of though.

A 300+ meter lead could be difficult to hang on to in light breezes. In the first race Team New Zealand would close on Luna Rossa, but couldn't climb up on them in the wind shadow. In the 2nd race yesterday (Race 6) the Kiwi boat legged out from the Italians. Of course different conditions could change that.

Through the 2021 Prada Cup races and now the America's Cup races how many come from behind race victories have there been? I believe there were two between the Italians and the Brits in the Prada finals. There may have been others, but not a bunch. Maybe my memory is being convenient?

One of the more tense sailboat racing that I've ever crewed was at a Buzzard's Bay Regatta. The boat was a Corsair 28r. It was windy when the pea soup fog rolled in. The Race Committee had provided GPS coordinates. We were racing around at ridiculous speeds with no way to see competitors until they were basically on top of you. We had near misses, but no collisions. Other multihulls weren't as lucky. I recall one boat had its high tech rigging cut into the fiberglass hull of another boat. Fortunately the rig didn't come down. I was happy to see the fog burn off.

vic

 

[220629]

...

A 300+ meter lead could be difficult to hang on to in light breezes. In the first race Team New Zealand would close on Luna Rossa, but couldn't climb up on them in the wind shadow. In the 2nd race yesterday (Race 6) the Kiwi boat legged out from the Italians. Of course different conditions could change that.

...

Coincidentally Mozzy Sails just posted this.