2007 Sprinter Engine won't shut off

dilit

2007 Dodge Sprinter 3500 (NCV3)
Well, that ECM was a biatch to get to, because it's underneath the aux battery stand in the engine compartment. I spent at least 3-5 hours today removing it. What are these people thinking placing those screws in such a way that we can't access them at all!! :yell::bird:. I wanted to scream taking those out and putting them back in.

Anyways, nothing on ECM that looks like water damage.
(I had quite a scare before I tried to put the aux battery platform back. I thought "let me start the car and make sure I did not disconnect something from ECM by accident". Well, the engine would not turn! With a full tank, the panel showed zero gas on the dashboard! :eek::thinking::nonono:. Miraculously, after I assembled and adjusted all the connections, the car is back to the same ol' problem. Ahhhhhh, so good! :smirk:)

So far:
- All the wires look clean under the steering wheel in the cabin and behind the fuse box.
- Fuse box has no damage or rust.
- ECM wires don't have any damage.
- No visible damage anywhere near exhaust under the car body.
- Testing the top sockets of fuses 2 and 8 with a tester yield infinite resistance. Does not see like a short is between 2 and 8 now.
I am ready to give up after the ECM scare and let the mechanic get some of my money:peace:
Or should I post a bounty on the short here? Whoever leads me to the short location, gets $$$. I donno.

Thank you everybody!
D
 

Gsand31415

2011 NCV 144 crew high roof
Another problem with ignition I have had 1-2 times over the pas year is I would turn off the ignition, but the key would not come out. I would wiggle it on and off till it released the key. Has not happened in a while, but I don't drive the van too often. Don't think this is related.
I do.
Occam's razor.
 

Dima74

Independent & Self Reliant - From Chattanooga TN
Well, that ECM was a biatch to get to, because it's underneath the aux battery stand in the engine compartment. I spent at least 3-5 hours today removing it. What are these people thinking placing those screws in such a way that we can't access them at all!! :yell::bird:. I wanted to scream taking those out and putting them back in.

Anyways, nothing on ECM that looks like water damage.
(I had quite a scare before I tried to put the aux battery platform back. I thought "let me start the car and make sure I did not disconnect something from ECM by accident". Well, the engine would not turn! With a full tank, the panel showed zero gas on the dashboard! :eek::thinking::nonono:. Miraculously, after I assembled and adjusted all the connections, the car is back to the same ol' problem. Ahhhhhh, so good! :smirk:)

So far:
- All the wires look clean under the steering wheel in the cabin and behind the fuse box.
- Fuse box has no damage or rust.
- ECM wires don't have any damage.
- No visible damage anywhere near exhaust under the car body.
- Testing the top sockets of fuses 2 and 8 with a tester yield infinite resistance. Does not see like a short is between 2 and 8 now.
I am ready to give up after the ECM scare and let the mechanic get some of my money:peace:
Or should I post a bounty on the short here? Whoever leads me to the short location, gets $$$. I donno.

Thank you everybody!
D
I had a 2008 Dodge Sprinter that had the same problem with engine running after the ignition switch was switched off. In my case, the finance company that financed the loan for the van installed a GPS tracker/locator on the van. The GPS tracker was directly connected to the ignition switch and was creating the whole issue with the engine running after the ignition was switched off. I removed the GPS tracker from the van and never had this issue occur again. Check the ignition switch for any possible modifications.
 

dilit

2007 Dodge Sprinter 3500 (NCV3)
I had a 2008 Dodge Sprinter that had the same problem with engine running after the ignition switch was switched off. In my case, the finance company that financed the loan for the van installed a GPS tracker/locator on the van. The GPS tracker was directly connected to the ignition switch and was creating the whole issue with the engine running after the ignition was switched off. I removed the GPS tracker from the van and never had this issue occur again. Check the ignition switch for any possible modifications.
Mine is a barebones (no gps, no camera) van unless there is a bazooka feature I don't know about :smirk:. Of course, sometimes I don't know what I am looking at and there might be something.
 

dilit

2007 Dodge Sprinter 3500 (NCV3)
Considering you've got 8 volts where you shouldn't have any, I'd work backwards from that point
How do you go backwards? There are like 20 wires coming out of the fuse box. They are wrapped around with some tape making it a giant cable.
That snakes around steering wheel and ignition components. I'd have to take apart a lot of stuff. I'd prefer to isolate a region with the short first.

D
 

Eric Experience

Well-known member
Demetry.
Before you waste money on a mechanic, just think about what I said, the short may be a fake shown on a non compatible scanner, to prove that point just measure the clutch cct to see if it is shorted. If there is no short then you know that the scanner is not compatible with your vehicle, and so just use the voltage measurements to find the damage. You have done a very good job so far. If you are not flexible enough to get you head under the dash you can remove the panels around the steering wheel and follow the loom looking for interference to the cloth binding. Eric.
 

dilit

2007 Dodge Sprinter 3500 (NCV3)
Demetry.
Before you waste money on a mechanic, just think about what I said, the short may be a fake shown on a non compatible scanner, to prove that point just measure the clutch cct to see if it is shorted. If there is no short then you know that the scanner is not compatible with your vehicle, and so just use the voltage measurements to find the damage. You have done a very good job so far. If you are not flexible enough to get you head under the dash you can remove the panels around the steering wheel and follow the loom looking for interference to the cloth binding. Eric.
@Eric Experience
Thank you for the encouragement. I love the challenge and will dig in :cool:
What is the clutch circuit? I'm on automatic transmission in US.
Why no short in the clutch circuit means that these scanner is not compatible o_O?

I'd have to take the front panels apart to do any sensible loom tracing. It's not a flexibility issue. There's a spaghetti bowl of wires and it's mostly unreachable.

I do have ICarsoft scanner. It says Sprinter on there. So, it's specific. In the pictures I've posted, it showed some shorts that I could try to investigate.
Here they are: https://sprinter-source.com/forums/index.php?threads/92165/post-959825
and https://sprinter-source.com/forums/index.php?threads/92165/post-959826

Looking through all pictures, I see why you were talking about AC compressor now. I have mostly disregarded the scanner messages as there are a lot of false positives.

Another idea is to try to find if the local community has the expensive scanner I could borrow. If not we should all pitch in to buy.
D
 
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Aqua Puttana

Poly - Thread Finder
A current tracer as I mentioned above will easily verify whether the 8? volts is coming from Fuse #2 as suspected, or some other source. You might find an independent shop that has the capability.

Added:
I would connect the current tracer to the fuse socket side where you are reading the 8+ volts. Same place with the wire detector.

This is not a current tracer.
It is a signal injector/tracer type instrument. A current tracer pulls a high current, high frequency pulse from the power source. An injector/tracer type puts a known signal on the deenergized wire to allow following the signal with a detector.

For 25 bucks it may allow you to trace back to the crossed circuit.


:cheers: vic
 
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dilit

2007 Dodge Sprinter 3500 (NCV3)
A current tracer as I mentioned above will easily verify whether the 8? volts is coming from Fuse #2 as suspected, or some other source. You might find an independent shop that has the capability.

Added:
I would connect the current tracer to the fuse socket side where you are reading the 8+ volts. Same place with the wire detector.

This is not a current tracer.
It is a signal injector/tracer type instrument. A current tracer pulls a high current, high frequency pulse from the power source. An injector/tracer type puts a known signal on the deenergized wire to allow following the signal with a detector.

For 25 bucks it may allow you to trace back to the crossed circuit.


:cheers: vic
Sounds great. I'll look into it for sure. I'm just worried about sending some unexpected voltage to ECM.

Vic, you don't think the fact that the resistance from fuse 2 to 8 is infinite is enough to show there's no short between them?

Thank you so much again!
 
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Aqua Puttana

Poly - Thread Finder
Sounds great. I'll look into it for sure. I'm just worried about sending some unexpected voltage to ECM.
...
The tool in the Amazon link will not harm the ECM.

Vic, you don't think the fact that the resistance from fuse 2 to 8 is infinite is enough to show there's no short between them?

Thank you so much again!
:idunno:

The resistance being checked when a circuit is not powered up and functioning may not show an accurate snapshot.

The trace tool may very well take you somewhere other than fuse #2. Or... the Amazon tool may not work as hoped, but for 25 bucks isn't it worth the gamble vs poking around in the dark?

In my opinion the current tracer type tool would be the better choice, but that tool is considerably more expensive.

vic
 

Eric Experience

Well-known member
Demetry.
Lets assume that the scanner you used is not telling the truth. To get a clear view of the wiring you have to remove some plastic covers, being able to clearly see the back of the ignition switch is important as your experience with having to wriggle the switch to make it work shows that someone may have attacked the switch. The switch is held by a threaded ring which may be loose. Eric.
 

dilit

2007 Dodge Sprinter 3500 (NCV3)
The tool in the Amazon link will not harm the ECM.


:idunno:

The resistance being checked when a circuit is not powered up and functioning may not show an accurate snapshot.

The trace tool may very well take you somewhere other than fuse #2. Or... the Amazon tool may not work as hoped, but for 25 bucks isn't it worth the gamble vs poking around in the dark?

In my opinion the current tracer type tool would be the better choice, but that tool is considerably more expensive.

vic
I was reading reviews and just went for the tracer Power Probe PWP-PPECT3000. Can always return if it doesn't work. :rad:
 

dilit

2007 Dodge Sprinter 3500 (NCV3)
Demetry.
Lets assume that the scanner you used is not telling the truth. To get a clear view of the wiring you have to remove some plastic covers, being able to clearly see the back of the ignition switch is important as your experience with having to wriggle the switch to make it work shows that someone may have attacked the switch. The switch is held by a threaded ring which may be loose. Eric.
I've bought a tracer per Vic's suggestion Power Probe PWP-PPECT3000. I'll probably take the panels off as well. I was using the van today. Did not want to play with it just before it was needed.

Will update next week!
 

Dima74

Independent & Self Reliant - From Chattanooga TN
Mine is a barebones (no gps, no camera) van unless there is a bazooka feature I don't know about :smirk:. Of course, sometimes I don't know what I am looking at and there might be something.
I'm not talking about a GPS (Navigation) as a feature, but a gps tracker. It is a small device installed on the van that sends the location of the van to whomever is tracking it.

Look underneath the dashboard for additional wires connected to the ignition switch/ignition switch wires.
 

dilit

2007 Dodge Sprinter 3500 (NCV3)
Demetry.
Lets assume that the scanner you used is not telling the truth. To get a clear view of the wiring you have to remove some plastic covers, being able to clearly see the back of the ignition switch is important as your experience with having to wriggle the switch to make it work shows that someone may have attacked the switch. The switch is held by a threaded ring which may be loose. Eric.
That ignition ring is not loose at all. I guess I'll need a special tool to look behind the ignition :-(.
 

dilit

2007 Dodge Sprinter 3500 (NCV3)
The tool in the Amazon link will not harm the ECM.


:idunno:

The resistance being checked when a circuit is not powered up and functioning may not show an accurate snapshot.

The trace tool may very well take you somewhere other than fuse #2. Or... the Amazon tool may not work as hoped, but for 25 bucks isn't it worth the gamble vs poking around in the dark?

In my opinion the current tracer type tool would be the better choice, but that tool is considerably more expensive.

vic
@Aqua Puttana
I am lost with that tracer tool ECT3000. I've read the instructions for the tool, perused the circuits multiple times, tried testing from the fusebox, but still I've gotten nowhere.

New things:
1. Fuse #8 has 12V on one side and 9-10V on the other side. When I pull out fuse #2 (8 is already out), 9-10V disappears. Weird, but somewhat expected given what I have seen before. This might or might not be a normal behavior. Wish someone could verify for me..
2. I connected the etc3000 transmitter to fuse 8 ground and tried to use the receiver from behind the fuse box. The receiver starts beeping and pointing away from the box. Albeit, the receiver stops beeping around the gas pedal. There are no bends or hot objects in the wires there, which would suggest a possible wire breakage. There is a zip-tie there, but the wire bundle looks pristine otherwise. I do not feel like disturbing the harness there, as while tracing some other non-problematic fuses, the receiver also stops to beep in the same spot.
3. Fuse #8 socket is connected to ground only on 1 side as is Fuse #2 (expected). Fuse 3 has ground on both sides. What the fudge?
Fuse #3 (as is Fuse #2) seem to control Electronic Ignition Switch. Could it be the problem in ignition switch after all?
Fuse 3 powers instrument cluster: that "P" above shifter stays on every time the malfunction repeats.
The hypothesis would be: Ignition Switch (EIS) fails to turn off and keeps Engine Control Relay powered. Pulling Fuse 8 downstream from the Eng Ctrl Relay shuts the ECM off without the relay powered down. But then why does removing Fuse 8 solve the issue - the engine starts and shuts down without a fault?
I tried to trace the short from Fuse 3 on one side of the socket and the receiver keeps beeping towards the ignition switch :thinking:

This has all the makings of a mystery, which could be expensive to solve via mechanic. Would need a wizard here :)
D
 
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Eric Experience

Well-known member
Dilit.
I have no experience with that tracing tool so can not help. Once you get access to the ignition switch you will be able to see the 12 volt switched on and hopefully off by the switch. this is basic stuff but important. Eric
 

Aqua Puttana

Poly - Thread Finder
@Aqua Puttana
I am lost with that tracer tool ECT3000. I've read the instructions for the tool, perused the circuits multiple times, tried testing from the fusebox, but still I've gotten nowhere.

New things:
1. Fuse #8 has 12V on one side and 9-10V on the other side. When I pull out fuse #2 (8 is already out), 9-10V disappears. Weird, but somewhat expected given what I have seen before. This might or might not be a normal behavior. Wish someone could verify for me..
2. I connected the etc3000 transmitter to fuse 8 ground and tried to use the receiver from behind the fuse box. The receiver starts beeping and pointing away from the box. Albeit, the receiver stops beeping around the gas pedal. There are no bends or hot objects in the wires there, which would suggest a possible wire breakage. There is a zip-tie there, but the wire bundle looks pristine otherwise. I do not feel like disturbing the harness there, as while tracing some other non-problematic fuses, the receiver also stops to beep in the same spot.
3. Fuse #8 socket is connected to ground only on 1 side as is Fuse #2 (expected). Fuse 3 has ground on both sides. What the fudge?
Fuse #3 (as is Fuse #2) seem to control Electronic Ignition Switch. Could it be the problem in ignition switch after all?
Fuse 3 powers instrument cluster: that "P" above shifter stays on every time the malfunction repeats.
The hypothesis would be: Ignition Switch (EIS) fails to turn off and keeps Engine Control Relay powered. Pulling Fuse 8 downstream from the Eng Ctrl Relay shuts the ECM off without the relay powered down. But then why does removing Fuse 8 solve the issue - the engine starts and shuts down without a fault?
I tried to trace the short from Fuse 3 on one side of the socket and the receiver keeps beeping towards the ignition switch :thinking:

This has all the makings of a mystery, which could be expensive to solve via mechanic. Would need a wizard here :)
D
The tool that pulls current from the source is the better choice, but they are more expensive vs the signal injection type.

The readings you are getting to ground could be reading through the supplied aka connected equipment/components.

I suspect that the circuits aren't coming together until the ECM aka ECU relay kicks in or the circuit is otherwise brought on line.

A possible method to help the signal tracer work.

Find the ECM relay socket.
Identify the pins/plug that connect the relay N.O. contacts.
Disconnect the negative pole of the battery. (The footwell switch should work.)
Jumper the relay pins identified as the N.O. contacts.
Connect the signal tracer to the proper (back fed) Fuse #8 plug. (Leave fuse #2 in place.)
See where the signal tracer leads you.

No joy?
Leaving all as above, turn the ignition switch to "On".
See where the signal tracer leads you.

No joy?
Remove the N.O. contact jumper from the relay socket.
Leave the ignition switch in "On".
See where the signal tracer leads.

vic
 
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dilit

2007 Dodge Sprinter 3500 (NCV3)
...
Find the ECM relay socket.
Identify the pins/plug that connect the relay N.O. contacts.
Disconnect the negative pole of the battery. (The footwell switch should work.)
Jumper the relay pins identified as the N.O. contacts.
Connect the signal tracer to the proper (back fed) Fuse #8 plug. (Leave fuse #2 in place.)
See where the signal tracer leads you.

No joy?
Leaving all as above, turn the ignition switch to "On".
See where the signal tracer leads you.

No joy?
Remove the N.O. contact jumper from the relay socket.
Leave the ignition switch in "On".
See where the signal tracer leads.

vic
Vic
Sorry, N.O. contacts are the ones that the solenoid connects after there's current?
Jumper cable is a cable from a battery?
Finally, what is disconnecting Eng Control Relay going to reveal about potential shorts downstream? It's a relay that sits above 8,9,10 and 16.
 
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dilit

2007 Dodge Sprinter 3500 (NCV3)
More hunches:
I start to think that the issue lies upstream of the fuse box rather than below. (To be sure, it would be nice to verify whether 9V on the equipment side of fuse 8 is correct. )

When I turn off the key and the system malfunctions with all the fuses in place, a lot of fuses keep 12 V on the upstream side until I pull fuse 8. (This part of fuse 8 is a mystery. ). If there were a short downstream, it would be unlikely to be resolved by a system reset. It would keep on happening.

Yesterday, taking out fuse 8 or dis/reconnecting the battery would not even help with starting the car. It would not make any sound besides that of powering up the dashboard. I measured the voltage at the fuses with the keys turned and dashboard on. It was like 4 Volts, which explains all those low voltage error codes. The battery voltage was 12. Gotta take a look at ignition switch imo.

How does ignition switch actually control the system? I imagine it must send a signal to ECM to orchestrate everything. Where are the diagrams?
If it's not the ignition switch, it must be ECM causing the erratic behavior.
Try to replace the ignition switch at a dealer? Is it easy to pop a new ECM to check?
 
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