Lithium Upgrade with (630AH) Lithionics Batteries

[SSTraveler]

I don't know if this applies to what you encountered and what may have caused confusion, but I am working with an LTV Free Spirit Owner who ran into a different setup with his Isolator Solenoid and so once I cross walked his wiring he could move on with his Renogy DC-DC charger installation. The IRD is a switch, that doesn't signal the Isolator Solenoid to close until it's sure the chassis side is taken care of by the alternator before it allows the house to use it for battery charging. The two vertical terminals are for ground and a switch they can be wired be either terminal as long as the ground and switch wires are on opposite vertical terminals. You can see mine is wired just the opposite, Ird switch wire on the top terminal and ground wires on the bottom terminal, and still functions the same. Leisure always uses white wires for their ground/negative wires so that cluster of #10 white wires are simply ground wires that they stacked on that Isolator Solenoid terminal. Leisure is using the terminal on a broader basis as a ground bus terminal for the stuff wired under the seat (i.e. Awning controls).

 

[skipper9]

The problem is the #10 wire, that is the wrong wire You should have had 4 awg wires going to the chassis and house batteries off the Isolator Solenoid. Here are the Isolator Solenoid Connections that you should have started with under your passenger seat.
View attachment 182983
Then the connections to the Sterling are straight forward. The red and black wire from the Isolator Relay Delay are not used, just abandon in place.
View attachment 182988
I actually added a BlueSea ML-ACR and a Trik-L-Start to my installation so I have the ability to connect the chassis/engine battery to the house battery to use as a starter battery in an emergency and to keep my chassis battery charged by any source charging my Lithionics 315ah house battery. See this thread starting on post #26 for more details on my installation, https://sprinter-source.com/forums/index.php?threads/93929/page-2. My setup has been working fine since I installed it. I haven't tested the emergency start feature but the Sterling is putting out about 28a when I checked it and the Trik-L-Start is keeping the chassis battery charged perfectly.
View attachment 182990

Thanks Sandy for your suggestions...Can you explain a little more about the necessity for 4 gauge wire? I had reference Lithonics table which listed 10 guage. I'm still struggling on finding out why the 4 gauge input from the starter battery, (not yet connected to the Sterling 1230), to the breaker, is NOT showing the needed power of 12.V (shows .87volts.). The Serenbattery layout pdf appears to show the fuse as being in the panel at the starter battery. It has a note numbered #16 - that note 16 iis not on the diagram and wondered if there is additional info, like another page to this spec diagram? What fuse number in the busbar line up? Is this busbar be attached to the positive side of the start up battery?
Again, thanks for your help.

 

[skipper9]

Thanks Sandy for your suggestions...Can you explain a little more about the necessity for 4 gauge wire? I had reference Lithonics table which listed 10 gauge. I'm still struggling on finding out why the 4 gauge input from the starter battery, (not yet connected to the Sterling 1230), to the breaker, is NOT showing the needed power of 12.V (shows .87volts.). The Serenity battery layout pdf from Willie appears to show the fuse as being in the panel at the starter battery. I would assume this is the busbar be attached to the positive side of the start up battery? It looks like a cartridge of 4-6 fuses.
Again, thanks for your help.

 

[SSTraveler]

If you got your wiring diagrams from Leisure you should have a diagram like this. You should be using the Leisure diagram not the Lithionics. The Lithionics Installation guide is just an example, not necessarily applicable in all cases. The Sterling BB1230 is replacing the isolator solenoid and IRD (found under the passenger seat) in this Leisure wiring diagram. It is correct that 10awg is rated for 30 amps but since the Sterling requires 50a circuit breaker on both sides the wire size you use should be rated for 50a. So really 6 awg is the smallest wire you should use with the Sterling BB1230. Leisure uses 4 awg because the Isolator Solenoid is rated higher than 50a. 4awg is larger and will work very well with the Sterling. You shouldn't get any voltage drop with the long wire runs to the batteries from the passenger seat. I didn't mess with the 200a fuses because they don't come into play really. The #4 wire will never see 200a. The 50a circuit breakers are the protective features. I purchased 12" 4 awg wires with lugs so I could just disconnect the battery cables from the isolator solenoid, attach them to the 50a circuit breakers and then use the 12"cables to connect from the circuit breakers to the Sterling.

 

[taildragger]

For more ideas about getting more solar and battery, see:

 

[SSTraveler]

I'm working with a 2014 Leisure Free Spirit owner on a complete electrical overhaul. He is installing 2 Lithionics 315ah batteries (630ah), Xantrex 3000w Inverter, Victron 100/30 Solar Controller, Renogy DCC50S 50a DC-DC charger, EasyStart on the air conditioner, and virtually rewiring the entire van. You can view his project on this thread, https://sprinter-source.com/forums/index.php?threads/98249/#post-1054574. He has put all his control panels and displays in his over door compartment. He just installed the New Lithionics Ion Gage and did a great job.

I recently installed an Ion Gage and I love it. It takes a 3-3/8" hole saw and is a pretty typical installation. They give you 25' of cord so I cut mine in two so it would be easier to route and I could shorten. I used these simple heat shrink style solder connectors, https://www.amazon.com/Kuject-Connectors-Waterproof-Electrical-Automotive/dp/B073RMRCC3/ref=sr_1_3?crid=2SL3L3FR8MH6&dchild=1&keywords=solderless+wire+connectors&qid=1625742319&sprefix=solderless,aps,300&sr=8-3, to reattach like wires together (stager the splices so they make a less bulky grouping than if cut straight across) to complete the wiring. Where I installed my Ion Gage the machine screws on the back were to long and hit my TV that stores in the cabinet. So I simply cut them shorter and cut the arms on the U bracket shorter with a cutting wheel. It has a great night display as well, not overwhelming like other back lit displays. It doesn't bother you at night. I really like how each half of the screen can display different parameter choices by using the arrows and pricing the respective half screen display. I like displaying voltage, current drawn from the battery, and % SOC. I really like having an at a glance display for the Lithionics BMS data you get off their App. I left my Victron BMV-712 installed to constantly display my chassis battery voltage because I like to monitor that as well. The Victron BMV-712 battery monitoring information isn't as accurate as the Lithionics internal BMS data so I no longer use the other BMV-712 features.


The Ion Gage was designed for the New Lithionics Gen 2 batteries with the OptoLoop port Connector. The thing I really like is that can be connected to multiple batteries or other Canbus devices like the Firefly Multiplex Interactive System as well. Lithionics also has an optional panel that allows you to mount the remote On-Off button with the Ion Gage so you never have to access the battery box/battery storage area to use it. For those who like At-A-Glance displays in addition to using Bluetooth connectivity to view App information on your smart device, the Lithionics Ion Gage is a nice addition to any Lithionics battery project.

 

[treemaze]

Here is another option for a DC/DC charger to replace the Sterling charger installed by LTV. I put one in the step compartment but I think it would also work under the passenger seat, where LTV installed the Sterling in my Unity (I tested it there temporarily).

What's Left

I fixed most things on my list of dislikes, but the underpowered Sterling 30A DC/DC charger is still there. Mainly because the options for 50-60A chargers and where to locate them didn’t seem worth it, based on size, cost, quality, heat dissipation. I’m sure I’ll replace it eventually though.

I wrote that in the winter when the Sterling charger could often provide its 24A rated output. When summer came the Sterling ran at half power or less, probably due to high temperatures in the small, unventilated space under the passenger seat. Overheating seems to be a common complaint, like in this thread: https://sprinter-source.com/forums/index.php?threads/75471/post-762126.

12A isn’t enough to charge the batteries if the fridge is running on 12V, in fact they will slowly discharge (unless there’s also solar power). For anyone with a factory-installed Sterling charger, I’d regularly check the current going to (or from) the batteries when driving.

Clearly it was time for a better charger in a better location. I liked how lvuman put the 50A Renogy DCC50S charger in the step compartment, so I did something similar, using the 50A Kisae DMT1250. It’s like the Renogy but more programmable, and the MPPT input works a little differently. It’s a tight fit in that compartment, with the top clearance less than the recommended 3 inches when mounted vertically. There is some ventilation there and the Kisae is more efficient than the Sterling, so hopefully less likely to overheat.


I needed to run a new cable between the passenger seat and step compartment. Reusing the factory wiring would have been easier but I was already using that to power an Amp-L-Start under the passenger seat. It helped to remove the carpeted board between the cab and house. In my 2020 Unity it was attached with 10 screws buried in the carpet. From the step compartment I ran the new 4 AWG cable under the Unity into this access space, where I could push it through a hole under the passenger seat.

Underfloor access between cab and house
















Kisae DMT1250 on front wall of step compartment


I didn’t use the solar input, which is rated for 50V/30A. The schematic at the end of this updated pdf shows the new connections.

 

[TinManKC]

Here is another option for a DC/DC charger to replace the Sterling charger installed by LTV. I put one in the step compartment but I think it would also work under the passenger seat, where LTV installed the Sterling in my Unity (I tested it there temporarily).


I wrote that in the winter when the Sterling charger could often provide its 24A rated output. When summer came the Sterling ran at half power or less, probably due to high temperatures in the small, unventilated space under the passenger seat. Overheating seems to be a common complaint, like in this thread: https://sprinter-source.com/forums/index.php?threads/75471/post-762126.

12A isn’t enough to charge the batteries if the fridge is running on 12V, in fact they will slowly discharge (unless there’s also solar power). For anyone with a factory-installed Sterling charger, I’d regularly check the current going to (or from) the batteries when driving.

Clearly it was time for a better charger in a better location. I liked how lvuman put the 50A Renogy DCC50S charger in the step compartment, so I did something similar, using the 50A Kisae DMT1250. It’s like the Renogy but more programmable, and the MPPT input works a little differently. It’s a tight fit in that compartment, with the top clearance less than the recommended 3 inches when mounted vertically. There is some ventilation there and the Kisae is more efficient than the Sterling, so hopefully less likely to overheat.

View attachment 190863
I needed to run a new cable between the passenger seat and step compartment. Reusing the factory wiring would have been easier but I was already using that to power an Amp-L-Start under the passenger seat. It helped to remove the carpeted board between the cab and house. In my 2020 Unity it was attached with 10 screws buried in the carpet. From the step compartment I ran the new 4 AWG cable under the Unity into this access space, where I could push it through a hole under the passenger seat.

Underfloor access between cab and house
View attachment 190864















Kisae DMT1250 on front wall of step compartment
View attachment 190867

I didn’t use the solar input, which is rated for 50V/30A. The schematic at the end of this updated pdf shows the new connections.

Great documentation, thanks for sharing!

 

[SSTraveler]

Very nice job! Kisae products have very good reviews, I have been hoping someone would do a writeup on them. I believe this Kisae DC-DC charger is fan cooled like the Sterling, which is a plus over other type DC-DC chargers that only use surrounding air cooling. The battery box just has 2 vent openings on the left side, did you add anymore openings to increase air flow?

You say you didn't use the solar house battery charging feature, which includes trickle charging the chassis battery as well, so are you still using your Amp-L-Start for your chassis battery maintainer? Do you know if the Kisae DMT1250 has the same limitation as the Renogy DCC50S, in that if you use the MPPT solar controller it reduces the DC-DC charger output to 25a. To me that is a draw back of the Renogy DCC50S, the Renogy DCC50S also doesn't have an internal cooling fan.

You don't show/tell exactly how you ran the wire from the passenger seat to the battery box. I have seen what looks like a cable chassis out of the back of my seat base but I didn't realize it may run directly to the step battery box. Could you explain exactly how you got to the battery box with a new wire in more detail? If I replace my Sterling under the passenger seat I would like to install a larger DC-DC charger and put it in my inverter compartment, so having a good understanding of how one might run a larger gauge wire from the passenger seat base to the battery box or underneath the rig would be very helpful.

An option for running a wire back to the chassis battery is to remove both driver and passenger seat to reveal that you can easily push wires from the passenger seat wire chase that connects the driver and passenger seat bases together then out the wire chase that connects the front of the driver's seat to the chassis battery box. Thanks for telling/showing how to remove the carpeted section behind the seats.

 

[Klipstr]

In my Wonder there is a connection from the output side of the original IRD Relay setup to the positive bus bar in the battery bay. The wire gauge was at least #4 but may be #2. I'd have to go and look which I will do. In my case, since I'm only pulling 30A through to the Orion, #4 is fine. It's then fused to the battery side of that bus like all the other 12V inputs. You can think of the bus bar as having an input side and an output side. When I wired the Victron Orion in my setup, I removed the fuse linking the chassis alternator input to the output side of the bus and routed a wire from the input side to the Orion and then the output side of the Orion to the output side of the bus. Indirectly, as I have a positive post on my equipment board that carries all inputs (MPPT and Orion) to the output side.

I am doing an install this coming weekend and intend to do the same thing on an older Unity MB. I will jump the original IRD/Relay under the passenger seat with a 60A breaker (or maybe simply jump it since I'll have a breaker near the Orion), remove the existing fuse in the bus bar in the battery bay, run a wire from the input side to the Orion and output back. I know I said all of this in paragraph one! I will report back.

Back to the Kisae. I am going to research that but appreciate the pioneers! The Orion heat is killing me! I could run a pizza shop in my inverter bay when that thing is on! What I really notice is that something throttles the input current when the Orion/BMS/battery gets too hot. My example is the solar is producing more than 30A and the Orion is producing 30A (me thinks but since Victron deigns not to actually show me that), but the Lithionics only shows 45A in. The BMS and and battery were both in the triple digits heat wise. When the whole mess is cool I do get the full 60A+ I expect...

Is the Kisae cooler and does it keep its current up when warmer? I have no need to use the solar portion of it. I would want to get the entire 50A via the alternator.

I only chose the Orion because it simplifies the apps running on the phone for monitoring...

 

[treemaze]

The battery box just has 2 vent openings on the left side, did you add anymore openings to increase air flow?

Could you explain exactly how you got to the battery box with a new wire in more detail?

An option for running a wire back to the chassis battery is to remove both driver and passenger seat to reveal that you can easily push wires from the passenger seat wire chase that connects the driver and passenger seat bases together..

That’s a good point about running wires between the two seats to get to the chassis battery. I took that route connecting the Amp-L-Start and chassis battery voltage sense wires. I turn on the Amp-L-Start for a couple hours every 3-4 weeks when the Unity is parked.

The battery box/step compartment does have the vent openings on the left, and also a big opening next to the fuse block in back. Given how much dust gets into there after driving on only paved roads, there must be a good amount of air flow.

Hole In Back Of Step Compartment ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, Entry Into Underfloor Access Area





















That 25A limit on the Renogy is sort of weird; I doubt the Kisae has that but don’t know for sure. Here’s what I could find in the manual:

The DC to DC Battery Charger is a fully automatic multi-stage, multi-input battery charger with the ability to charge from either an alternator linked to a battery, or via solar power with its built-in Maximum Power Point Tracking (MPPT) Solar Controller. With two inputs available, the house battery will be charged from either the engine while underway, or via the solar panels when stationary. The process to choose either engine or solar is fully automatic and both functions are controlled from within the unit itself without the need for external relays.

It’s easier to run the cable between passenger seat and step compartment than show how to do it! The cable exited the step compartment through the hole in the back, then ran under the Unity for about 3 feet where it went through a hole in the chassis into the area I exposed by removing the carpeted board between cab and house. LTV ran a bunch of cables there that also go under the passenger seat and it’s easy to follow those. Instead of the yellow foam you see in my photo, LTV filled that hole with a lot of gray foam.

Another option is to just replace the Sterling with the Kisae under the passenger seat. It’s easy to try and could always be moved later. The Kisae does switch to half power when it gets too hot and turns off entirely if hotter still. A half power DMT1250 should equal a full power BB1230.

 

[treemaze]

Is the Kisae cooler and does it keep its current up when warmer? I have no need to use the solar portion of it. I would want to get the entire 50A via the alternator.
I only chose the Orion because it simplifies the apps running on the phone for monitoring...

The Kisae definitely runs cooler than the Sterling, but that isn’t saying much. It switches to half current at 60C and turns off at 65C. The problem is there are few if any good places to put these chargers. Ideally it would be in an air-conditioned space with lots of room to dissipate heat, not in a metal box a couple feet from 60C asphalt!

It would be interesting to see the volts/amps going in and out of the Orion, and compare that with the Sterling and Kisae. That power delta is just going to show up as heat.

Originally, I wanted to get the Orion to go with my other Victron stuff. Probably would have if it could connect to the Cerbo GX.

 

[DiverBob]

I installed an Orion on my Twin Bed under the seat between the cabin door and passenger door. This seat has the propane heater in this location so on the side of the seat between the seat and passenger seat there is a large metal grill for air to enter into the furnace. I attached my Orion directly to the grill using 1/4” short bolt and lock nuts. The grid hole size is perfect for 1/4” bolts to fit so the Orion hangs in place. This gives the heat exchanger fins on the Orion more area for heat dissipation without noticeably impacting air flow needed by the furnace. Even when the batteries are low and needed several hours of driving time to recharge there hasn’t been excessive heat noted by me

 

[treemaze]

I installed an Orion on my Twin Bed under the seat between the cabin door and passenger door. This seat has the propane heater in this location so on the side of the seat between the seat and passenger seat there is a large metal grill for air to enter into the furnace. I attached my Orion directly to the grill using 1/4” short bolt and lock nuts. The grid hole size is perfect for 1/4” bolts to fit so the Orion hangs in place. This gives the heat exchanger fins on the Orion more area for heat dissipation without noticeably impacting air flow needed by the furnace. Even when the batteries are low and needed several hours of driving time to recharge there hasn’t been excessive heat noted by me

That does sound like a good location. Reminds me that my Unity MB has lots of space near the furnace too. Getting cables there would take a little work.

 

[SSTraveler]

The battery box/step compartment does have the vent openings on the left, and also a big opening next to the fuse block in back.

That 25A limit on the Renogy is sort of weird; I doubt the Kisae has that but don’t know for sure.

I forgot about wire run holes in addition to the vents. The Kisae manual isn't as clear as the Renogy manual as to how the DC-DC charger and Solar charger is controlled inside the unit. So it could function just like the Renogy DCC50S, limiting alternator charging to 25a if the solar charging feature is being used simultaneously. Lvuman came up with the right approach on that just install a switch on the solar panel output to turn it off when driving so you get the full 50a DC-DC alternator charging. I definitely like the Kisae over the Renogy because of its cooling fans. These units get so hot that being fan cooled is definitely a plus. Thanks for the extra details as to how the seat base opening gets to the exterior underbelly. I'm going to add your Kisae installation to my DC-DC Charger guide. Your approach gives people another option to consider.

 

[SSTraveler]

I was able to watch my Sterling charging on this trip and it is virtually non existent. I guess it is overheating almost immediately after driving. If I'm going pull the seat off to increase the ventilation I'm going to replace it with a Kisae50a DMT1250. I was very so impressed with Treemaze's post, that I decided it is worth a try over the Sterling! I like the idea of more alternator charging as well. I'm to keep the Trik-L-Start vs using the MPPT Solar feature, which also maintains the chassis battery.

 

[SSTraveler]

I was able to watch my Sterling charging on this trip and it is virtually non existent. I guess it is overheating almost immediately after starting the engine. If I'm going pull the seat off to increase the ventilation I'm going to replace it with a Kisae 50a DMT1250 DC-DC charger. I was so impressed with Treemaze's post, that I decided the Kisae is worth a try over the Sterling! I like the idea of more alternator charging as well. I'm going to try to keep the Trik-L-Start to keep chassis battery charged if it is compatible with the Kisae.

Treemaze is correct that the Kisae MPPT Solar feature is only to add to house battery charging. It is not like MPPT Solar charging feature of the Renogy, that charges the house battery and maintains the chassis battery charged. I'll report back after I get it installed.

 

[treemaze]

It will be interesting to compare notes after using the Kisae for a while. I couldn't find anything in the manual that mentions the Kisae can maintain the chassis battery with solar power, like the Renogy can. But I'm not using the solar input so haven't tested that.

The Sterling can use the "ignition on" signal from the Sprinter to enable charging, and the Kisae doesn't have that. So in theory it will keep charging the house batteries even after the engine turns off, if the input voltage is high enough (12.8V, I think). On my 2019 chassis the input goes to 0V when the engine turns off, but other model years may be different?

 

[SSTraveler]

Yes, it will be interesting to compare notes. You are right about the solar feature not charging the chassis battery simultaneously to the house battery, or at least the manual doesn't speak to that. The Kisae can use an ignition signal, referred to as a "Control", that overrides the voltage sensing to turn the DC-DC charging on with the ignition on. It doesn't discuss if the ignition being turned off turns the charger off. I need the charger to function under ignition only mode or the Trik-L-Start may trigger a charging do loop. It may turn out I have to manually turn off the DC-DC charger when parked in storage and using a switch manually turn the Trik-L-Start on. I'll figure it out for sure. The Kisae DMT1250 does have an optional remote, since I'm putting this under the passenger seat, I may get as will so I can control it from a more accessible location.

 

[treemaze]

At first I thought the Kisae's "Control" input would function something like the Sterling's "Ignition" input. It's the opposite: that input on the Sterling can disable charging, and the Kisae's input enables charging under a wider range of voltages. Fortunately, the cable LTV ran to the Sterling's input in my 2020 Unity, which I've now connected to Kisae's alternator input, loses power when the engine shuts off. If it didn't, I might use the Victron Battery Protect 100 in series with the Kisae's alternator input, and use the Sprinter's D+ signal to turn it on.