Lithium Upgrade with (630AH) Lithionics Batteries

EnerGT

2020 LTV Unity MB
I used the LibreOffice Draw software on a PC.
Hi Tree, would you mind posting or emailing me your LibreOffice file? It is an excellent diagram. I would prefer not to post my email to prevent spam and it appears you are not setup for IM.
 

SSTraveler

2014 LTV Unity Murphy Bed
Something lvuman and I discovered about the Renogy DCC50s, when you use the dual charging inputs of both DC-DC charger and solar. Renogy limits the output of each source to 25a. We didn't pick this up when we read the manual before he installed it. It's ridiculous that Renogy would design it this way since the DC-DC charger is fully capable of putting out 50a charging from the alternator. Ivuman discovered the work around is to just turnoff using a switch (many just replace the GoPower controller with a switch) or flip the circuit breaker on the Positive wire of the solar panel feed to the Renogy for when you are driving to get the maximum 50a Alternator charging. Then just flip the solar panels back on to the Renogy when parked at a campground or in storage. We still believe the Renogy DCC50s is a great option to get both alternator charging and a chassis battery maintainer (from mixed chemistry battery systems). But I wanted to let you know what we discovered about it.
 

SSTraveler

2014 LTV Unity Murphy Bed
Here is a new video describing the Lithionics internal heater feature. This certainly resolves the last of concerns in switching to Lithium batteries.
 

lvuman

Active member
Here is a new video describing the Lithionics internal heater feature. This certainly resolves the last of concerns in switching to Lithium batteries.
This is good stuff! The internal heater was one of the top-selling points for me when deciding on the GTX12V315A Lithionics battery. I didn't know, however, that the internal heater could also be shut down or powered from a separate 12v or even a 120v power source. Love it!
 

SSTraveler

2014 LTV Unity Murphy Bed
We had a bit of a cold snap here in SC and for the past couple of days we have had lows in high teens and high of mid 30s, so it made me start researching about this Lithionics battery internal heater feature. If I do switch to Lithium batteries I want to be able to park my Leisure for the winter and rely on the solar to maintain the batteries as I do with my AGM batteries (House and Chassis). So I have been reluctant to consider a change to Lithium batteries because I understand the typical Lithium batteries(100ah small ones) can be damaged if they are charged when the battery temperature is below freezing. But I see these Lithionics batteries have built-in internal heaters with a thermostat that maintains the Lithionics lithium cell/core to a temperature between 35 and 40 degrees Fahrenheit. This permits sub-freezing charging operation as well as a safe and durable storage condition in winter months. If I read this testing data correctly it only uses 1a per hour,,when the heater is running, so my 200w of solar would continue to maintain the batteries easily through the winter even if the heater operates occasionally. I like it!
 

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lvuman

Active member
That's really a huge plus to have the heaters. We may only get a few days of sub-freezing weather here in AZ but nice not to worry about the batteries. What little charge they use will be quickly replenished with solar. They are the only batteries that have a built-in (mounted on top of the battery) shut off switch that will completely shut off the battery including the BMS if you wish. If they are switched off, you can store the batteries in freezing weather with very little discharge so that's always another option.

Storage.png
 

SSTraveler

2014 LTV Unity Murphy Bed
I found this Facebook Post from a guy who installed 1890ah of Lithionics Batteries in his boat and he does a great job of describing why he selected Lithionics over other Lithium batteries like Relion, Battleborn, or Victron. I certainly found his post informative in doing my own research on which lithium battery to choose. He selected the Lithionics 12v315GTX (315ah) Lithium batteries for his following reasons;

-Uses cells with lower Internal resistance (critical factor for battery life
and Battery Monitoring)
-Advanced Smart Internal Battery Monitoring Sytem (with Bluetooth
connectivity)
-Powder coated aircraft grade Aluminum case that is IP67 Rated
(Ingress protection code [IP] 67 means battery can be immersed into
water 1m deep for 30 minutes)
-Superior High Power Density (30% smaller than 3 x 100ah batteries)
-Up to 250a continous charge/discharge current
-Underwriters Laboratories (UL) testing and advanced safety features
(Every component in the Lithionics battery is &L listed)
-Battery switch on the battery itself to turn it on/off
-Grade A Battery Cell Technology (Large Prismatic cells with only 0.25 -
0.50 milli-ohm cell impedance)
-Higher discharge surge rate (meaning it can handle heavy load surges
like when the air conditioner compressor turns on)
-Internal Battery Heater (uses 1a/hour to maintain Battery temperature
between 35-40° F)
-And his list goes on and on
 

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blue

2011 LTV Unity CB
I understand that these are great batteries, but aren't they ridiculously expensive? I think I saw $4500 for the 315 Ah from one vendor.
 

kcshoots

VanTripping.com
Very good system. However, I could have gotten you almost 3x the power for 1/2 the price. To get high power out of this 12VDC system, you’ll need thick, heavy and expensive copper cables. See my remedy at:
Thanks for the share and info. It seems that putting four lithium batteries in series for 48 VDC or two for 24vdc could work well if a DC-DC converter is used to get 12 VDC for charging appliances and lights and a 24 or 48 vdc inverter input. Would certainly reduce wire size and fuse capacities.
 

SSTraveler

2014 LTV Unity Murphy Bed
I understand that these are great batteries, but aren't they ridiculously expensive? I think I saw $4500 for the 315 Ah from one vendor.
They may retail for that but the feedback I got from other Lithionics owners is that the more experienced you are, hence not requiring their technical support, the lower the cost of the battery is. They told me that they felt the price they paid was very competitive, with other battery options they considered. Lithionics Batteries are more attractive, based on all the extra features and based on the fact that the battery price isn't written in stone. But you need to contact Lithionics and discuss your project and they will work with you on the pricing. So it is definitely worth contacting Lithionics to see what they can do for you! Here are quotes from other folks who recently installed Lithionics batteries.

I can attest to this. If you are a DIYer and not requiring Lithionics technical support, I would encourage you to talk to Stephen at Lithionics. You can get, what I firmly believe is the best battery on the market for your installation, for very little over the cost per amp-hour of any competitor. I wouldn't be surprised to eventually see their batteries as standard in new LTVs. Their Bluetooth abilities and internal heaters are a huge plus.
I had the same experience as lvuman after contacting Lithionics. The GTX12V315A is a great battery and would be a good choice for anyone who wants that capacity and has the space to install it. If you're even considering adding 300+ ah of lithium batteries it's worth contacting Lithionics to see the options.
They have a Fact sheet explaining their web pricing policy.
 

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aksotar

2017 4x4 144 Cargo
Lithonics will prorate your retail price based on your experience ?!?! The Dealer here in Anchorage quoted me the same price as the Lithonics Owner quoted me... plus more for shipping... I talked with the Lithonics Owner who referred me to the Anch Dealer... we talked at length, I explained what I've done to my BBs to make them usable here in Alaska in the Winter..
if you have 200 watts of solar, don't figure you're getting 200 watts of power all day long.... short days, low sun angles, weather all knock that number down BIG TIME in actual output.....will your daily solar be able to power the warmer as well as recharge the battery ?? And if it snows for a couple of days and your panel is covered ??
I have Battleborns because they were the best 2 yrs ago, technology has now started to address LiFePo4s cold weather limitations... BB has temp controlled adhesive warming pads for $200 ea you stick on their batteries... most any good quality LiFePo4 will have a BMS which will not allow them to be charged if cold/frozen...
the reason I'd consider Lithonics is, besides the built in warmers, the size... I can easily fit the Lithonics in my house battery box but would be squeezing in a third BB, and all the associated wiring.... 3x BBs= $3300, 1x Lithonics=$4500 IMHO....
 
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lvuman

Active member
I found this Facebook Post from a guy who installed 1890ah of Lithionics Batteries in his boat and he does a great job of describing why he selected Lithionics over other Lithium batteries like Relion, Battleborn, or Victron. I certainly found his post informative in doing my own research on which lithium battery to choose. He selected the Lithionics 12v315GTX (315ah) Lithium batteries for his following reasons;

-Uses cells with lower Internal resistance (critical factor for battery life
and Battery Monitoring)
-Advanced Smart Internal Battery Monitoring Sytem (with Bluetooth
connectivity)
-Powder coated aircraft grade Aluminum case that is IP67 Rated
(Ingress protection code [IP] 67 means battery can be immersed into
water 1m deep for 30 minutes)
-Superior High Power Density (30% smaller than 3 x 100ah batteries)
-Up to 250a continous charge/discharge current
-Underwriters Laboratories (UL) testing and advanced safety features
(Every component in the Lithionics battery is &L listed)
-Battery switch on the battery itself to turn it on/off
-Grade A Battery Cell Technology (Large Prismatic cells with only 0.25 -
0.50 milli-ohm cell impedance)
-Higher discharge surge rate (meaning it can handle heavy load surges
like when the air conditioner compressor turns on)
-Internal Battery Heater (uses 1a/hour to maintain Battery temperature
between 35-40° F)
-And his list goes on and on
It's obvious from my installation here that I am a huge fan of Lithionics batteries. The more I see a post like SSTraveler just posted, the more excited I get but the real kicker here is that the GTX12V315A battery can fit virtually into any step compartment. My original 2, 6-volt Interstate batteries gave me a total of 100ah max (200ah discharged to 50%) and weighed a total of 124lbs. I was originally going to replace the 2, 6v batteries with one GTX12V315A battery to increase my usable amp-hour capacity to 283ah with a battery weight of 68lbs. That's 183 more amp-hours with a weight savings of 56lbs. That's crazy good plus I didn't have to daisy-chain two batteries together. The best part, fortunately, I talked to LIthionics with questions and what I was planning and they graciously worked with me. The end result, I decided to buy 2 batteries instead which made for a super installation!
 

SSTraveler

2014 LTV Unity Murphy Bed
The Lithionics GTX12V315A does seem like a much better option for a small motorhome like the Leisure. To think that you could have 315ah of Lithium power in the step battery box where you only used to have 200-235ah of Flooded Wet Cell or AGM lead Acid batteries or the small 100ah Lithium batteries. I definitely would not dismiss these out of hand because everyone says they cost to much. I know there is room for negotiating the price when you are talking factory direct, so I'll definitely contact Lithionics to get a price. I don't mind paying a little extra per ah if I can maximize the little space I have to get the most battery power, then there is all the features!

20201227_043814.jpg
 
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Klipstr

2018 Wonder FTB
I've got a really good idea:

SSTraveler should reach out to Lithionics and get us forum members a standard discount off of list price. We have beaten these battery options to death and I would suggest there is more knowledge within this forum than any of the others discussing solar. If anyone will cause less technical support it's us!

If not a standard discount for all time then maybe a quantity discount if we can a number of us to commit to purchase? I actually took a step forward after being bashed earlier today: I measured my spaces. I still don't know what I can put in these spaces but will research when I get back to Rio. This Show Low woodworking trip has really cut into my solar time...
 

SSTraveler

2014 LTV Unity Murphy Bed
I did it, I bought one! I just can't get over how nice these Lithionics batteries are. This 315GTX addresses all my wants for a Lithium Battery. I particularly love that it gives me 315ah in my step located battery box (my 2014 box measures 25.75"x11.5"x9.25" with a top side opening of 25-3/16"x8-3/8") and that it has an internal Bluetooth battery monitoring system, internal heater and on/off safety switch. I contacted Lithionics yesterday and Steve Tartaglia, the Owner/General Manager responded to me personally. He was so nice, he patiently listened and responded to all my questions. He said I should get over 2 hours of air conditioner operation from the 315ah. I'll really just be overjoyed with 2 hours, so that was good to hear. He's an avid RVer himself and simply loves Leisure's. Since I don't need any technical support, I got what I believe to be an outstanding price, so I ordered one and should get it in the next couple of weeks. As Klipstr points out, we can be our own best technical support!

So contact Lithionics, make sure you mention you are a Leisure owner, describe your project, how many 12v315GTX battery (s) you are looking for, what DIY level of capability you have (I believe the less technical support you need the better the price), and see what Lithionics can do for you. He doesn't just want to push batteries out the door, he wants to make sure Lithionics batteries meet the need and are safely installed, so he won't just give a flat price. But take it from me, the Special Pricing for Leisure owners, was very competitive with other batteries I've considered. The fact that Lithionics offers such a high quality battery, superior capacity in a compact size, (fits in the step battery box), with all the advanced features, I didn't hesitate, I ordered one!

He also sent me a bunch of pdfs with product details and wiring diagrams for Lithionics batteries with either Victron components (Multiplus, Cerbo, Touch 50, solar controllers, etc.) or Xantrex components (Freedom XC Pro inverter, Solar controller, etc.), and Sterling DC-DC chargers. Lithionics also sells Victron, Xantrex and Sterling products. I haven't decided on my inverter yet so I didn't get a price on that. I've attached this great presentation that covers virtually everything about Lithionics and it's batteries.

Anybody interested in well maintained, 1.5 year old Interstate AGM batteries at a good price? Pick up in South Carolina! ?
 

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ssalaria

2020 Serenity
SSTraveller, congratulations. If you are stamping this it has got to be good! :)

I am in a bit of a dilemma. I have a 2020 Serenity that came with two stock AGM batteries. I probably can wait a bit, but all of above is very tempting. I am still identifying my "needs" as far as LTV RVing is concerned. Someone had warned me not to go and buy every little or big thing you see others purchasing till you have spent some time RVing and know your real "needs" and "wants".
In this battery swap situation, this is going to be a big purchase/upgrade. I am already considering replacing the flex solar panels (as some of you know). Currently they are covered so they do not damage my roof but very soon I will order my hard panels and swap. This is a MUST project based on several posts here.
As far as this battery, I am a DIY guy but still learning (and have a lot to learn) about these DC systems. Thank goodness for experienced folks like you SSTraveller and Kilpster.
If I was to consider this Lithionics battery, I would need some guidance on what advantages (functional) does it provide above what the two AGM batteries do. Some items I think about:
Will they give me longer charge capability? If so how much longer before I have to plug in?
Will it give me the ability to run my microwave, toaster and coffee maker in some combination in tandem and for longer than current (I am currently able to run my microwave via my 2000w inverter for about 2 minutes before the systems starts beeping at me and shuts down the inverter occasionally that I need to reset). If it does that will be a big PLUS for me.

I will need to look at what the current throughput vs. future is going to be and what does that buy me. I am sure several folks here are probably wondering the same thing.
Then comes the swap. Is it a straight swap. Two for one. For the Serenity it would mean the new battery(s) one or two will have to fit in the outside battery storage compartment (one would not be an issue. I am not sure about two). Also is it a straight swap or other things need to be upgraded? And this is where you'all's guidance comes into play.
 

DiverBob

2018 Unity TB
Some items I think about:
Will they give me longer charge capability? If so how much longer before I have to plug in?
Will it give me the ability to run my microwave, toaster and coffee maker in some combination in tandem and for longer than current (I am currently able to run my microwave via my 2000w inverter for about 2 minutes before the systems starts beeping at me and shuts down the inverter occasionally that I need to reset). If it does that will be a big PLUS for me.
The installed lead acid batteries are probably about 235Ahr, which means you have around 50-75% of that value if you want to maximize the battery lifespan (Check with the AGM manufacturer’s specs for recommended maximum discharge value for maximizing lifespan). Lithium batteries should never be discharged more than 80% of capacity (however many manufacturers may rate a battery at 100Ahr but internally it is around 120Ahr so you get the full listed 100Ahr rating. I believe Lithionics does it this way also). LA batteries like staying at 100% charge all the time, Lithium doesn’t care. LA batteries charge fairly quickly up to around 85% capacity, getting that last 15% up to 100% requires a much slower charge rate so it takes a lot more time to charge. Lithium will charge all the way up to 100% at the same rate so much faster charging.
How often you have to re-charge is solely dependent on how fast you use the power! That’s why it’s a good idea to do an energy audit, figure out how much power everything in your RV uses, multiply that by the amount of time its is used. Adding everything up gives you how much power you use in an average day. Then you can add in how much margin do you want (if depending on solar for recharging then expect rainy days or parking under tree cover). That will give you a good idea of how much battery you need. Once you know how much battery capacity is needed you need to figure out how you want to go about re-charging that battery.
The energy audit should also identify your biggest power users, normally the microwave, Air Conditioner, electric induction heating cooktops, etc. This determines how big an inverter is needed to run that equipment. For instance the microwave typically needs at least a 2K inverter. But you aren’t going to be running much else while the microwave is running either. A 3K inverter is capable of running your air conditioner (still need a soft start on the AC in most cases depending on the surge capacity of the inverter - I’d still add the soft start anyway just to quiet down the compressor start cycle).
There is a lot of factors that go into the decision for electrical upgrades, many of us have gone through the process and are ready to give advice and help you to not make the mistakes we made along the way!
 

ssalaria

2020 Serenity
Thank you DiverBob.

That is an excellent recommendation. I think I am going to try to stick to not having to upgrade the inverter and hope 2000w will suffice.
I will check on the Ahr for the AGM batteries. I think this is where I need to dig in and your recommendation will help. Fridge will always be running so I have to take that as something that is constant. Don't want to mess with turning it off and on when using a microwave. Other items can run alternately (micro with toaster or coffee pot). But two things you helped me with:

1. Calculate total daily use.
2. Calculated full load (appliances running in parallel).
This is a good start.

While we are on this. Let me ask the group this question. If the Lithionics batteries were down to minimum (and I would know via the Bluetooth connectivity), how long would it take to charge them back to 100% if I turn on the engine and let it run? In my head I always consider solar as a backup trickle/bonus considering I will eventually end up with 400w on the roof by replacing current stock 300w flex as a direct swap without having to upgrade any other components and doing a direct swap and adding an additional 100w of "real" hard solar panels.

As always "Thank you in advance".
 

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