Emissions & dealing with the Fat Heads

Bobnoxious

Made in the USA Qualité Supérieure
Damn setup.

This is emmisions related to topic Adblue.

Das Warnszenario kann infolge von ECU / DCU Flashvorgängen oder einzelner Steuergeräte Reset‘s ausgelöst werden. Eine Deaktivierung erfolgt per Eigendiagnose nach erfolgter Gutprüfung aller Diagnosen die eine Warnszenario Relevanz haben. Die unten beschriebenen Testereingriffe ermöglichen eine schnelle Deaktivierung ohne abwarten einer Gutprüfung.

Translation:
The warning scenario can be triggered by ECU / DCU flashes or individual ECU resets. A deactivation is done by self-diagnosis after a good check of all diagnoses that have a warning scenario relevance. The tester interventions described below allow a quick deactivation without waiting for a good test.

My interpretation:
OBDII can, should, will or (maybe) reset no-start count down once OBDII determines all related input sensor data are Go!
 
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Bawareca

New member
My interpretation:
OBDII can, should, will or (maybe) reset no-start count down once OBDII determines all related input sensor data are Go!
This is correct. Except if you hit the 0 start deactivation scenario before the ECU determines that everything works fine. Also, some SCR control modules (not sure about the years) will not reset after low DEF warning has been triggered. They have to be replaced.
 

Bobnoxious

Made in the USA Qualité Supérieure
This is correct. Except if you hit the 0 start deactivation scenario before the ECU determines that everything works fine. Also, some SCR control modules (not sure about the years) will not reset after low DEF warning has been triggered. They have to be replaced.
That's unfortunate and should be brought to the forefront because it runs counter to advertised function.
 

lindenengineering

Well-known member
This is correct. Except if you hit the 0 start deactivation scenario before the ECU determines that everything works fine. Also, some SCR control modules (not sure about the years) will not reset after low DEF warning has been triggered. They have to be replaced.
Some SCR modules !!????
So far we have never experienced a module that would't come back to life after a simple DEF light triggering .
What we have discovered on some later Sprinter models,though, is those using the metal cased modules, (made up with a pressed metal case) is a repeat fault or dead circuit within the circuitry or programming. That dictates change out.
A typical example is module # 000 900 2308.
Looks like this:-
Dennis
https://www.ebay.com/itm/2016-MERCE...734430?hash=item1cdf7f1ede:g:ckUAAOSwsFJd8pyB
 

Bawareca

New member
Some SCR modules !!????
So far we have never experienced a module that would't come back to life after a simple DEF light triggering .
What we have discovered on some later Sprinter models,though, is those using the metal cased modules, (made up with a pressed metal case) is a repeat fault or dead circuit within the circuitry or programming. That dictates change out.
A typical example is module # 000 900 2308.
Looks like this:-
Dennis
https://www.ebay.com/itm/2016-MERCE...734430?hash=item1cdf7f1ede:g:ckUAAOSwsFJd8pyB
I stand corrected, they will not come back after deactivation scenario is triggered. The fault will not erase even after everything has been fixed. Upon installation of a new/used module everything will work fine. Had a few cases like that, but because I do the programming/SCN for other shops i often miss the details.
 

lindenengineering

Well-known member
Well this thread has gone quiet , needs a re-gen excuse the pun!
OK go back to Renault Freres and their bulletin I posted where they admitted/stated the system is ,limited to about 160,000 kms of life.

They also seemed to agree that the SCR Cat arrangement with urea injection was the most effective method of taming diesel exhaust emissions.
There is an interesting statement that indicates the system life is limited by the,materials used and their limitations.
OK , now staying with the Bluetec Sprinter for a moment we all know that the system has a much longer duration in most cases of more than their stated 160K Kms threshold, or say 100,000 miles. That's a given!

In fact we have seen original system with much higher figures than those quoted with the MB Sprinter product
That stated we start to see these systems plugged up from about 135,00 to 175,000 miles.
Interestingly we change out SCR (Bazooka tube Cats) three time more than the exhaust gas converting Cat/DPF's which hangs off the turbo.
So what are the symptoms to determine that you might ask?
In short the answer is NOx efficiency issues, when the gas conversion rate across the unit dips to below a 50% rate max when the recognized standard of gas conversion should be 75% or more .

At point critical you will get the Adblue light on, maybe the "count down to going nowhere", and for many the anxiety of making teeth marks on the steering wheel, and a tow to the dreaded dealer for a wallet flush. :devilish:

Now we can go over the multitude of NOx sensor issues & upgrades etc which have been beaten to death by posts on this forum, but few mention the internal upgrades on the SCR Cat itself. I know of four such changes where the internal vortex fixed vane has changes to promote DEF fluid mixing, the last one issued recently without fanfare has the rear NOx sensor orientation changed and moved up closer to the rearmost internal conversion "brick".
So if you have followed this narrative so far, and the SCR Cat's provision being there to merely convert (as the manufacturers say in their press blurb) an inert hot gas laden with nitrogenous oxides from activities created on the other side (upstream) of the exhaust system.
So why does it get plugged up?
After all its supposed in theory to have just hot gas for NOx conversion & some fine urea mist blown through it! Nothing more nothing less.!


Now I consider it naive to take the manufacturers statement as gospel, since we know the upstream provision the Cat & DPF to burn up soot to an ash substance and clean the exhaust gases of the most harmfully emissions produced of soot and carbon monoxide products .
So their statement falls short of the real fact that soot particles and ash will not stay in the CAT/DPF under hurricane like gas flow but rather drift down into the SCR cat and plug the bloody thing up!

Any wonder then when you exchange one old SCR Cat, it weighs about three times heavier than the new one.
So the unit is really acting as a filter, not just cleaning NOx gases as often stated.
Once the thing gets plugged up its curtains, its wallet flush time often resulting in changing the whole Kahuna.
But that's not all , with the system trying to get NOX parameters into programmed compliance, the DEF system is commanded to inject MORE DEF fluid in the SCR Cat which dries internally due to poor flow creates a stink and plugs it up some more..
Often the precursor of all this is a coated/ encrusted DEF dosing injector.
Its really like a word in your ear :-
"Hey Mr Jones take care of this crusted up dosing valve issue because the system is on the road to the undertaker".
I will add some more once this has sunk in.
Dennis
 

ZekesAutowerks

Sprinter service WNC
lindenengineering i see you talking about "acceptable cost to maintain the system" and i wonder just what that number is. There is so many variables to these systems and trying to explain them to customers is a nightmare. For instance a failed thermostat in the cooling system not allowing the engine to reach operating temp, preventing DPF rengen. Customer comes in with high soot load and you need a DPF..... well actually you need a DPF AND a thermostat, most shops miss this. OR an EKAS issue preventing regen, or a failed DPF pressure sensor preventing regen... on and on and on.

Not to mention the DPF and regen slowly kill the engine, and the turbocharger. Diluting the engine oil with fuel, even MB recommends oil/filter after 3 regens, yet the oil/filter interval is set at 10,000 miles. The system is doing regen way more than 3 times in 10,000 miles. Ive only ever seen one OM642 with over 500k and it was deleted. The million mile Mercedes diesels stopped being built in 2006.

Im not making a "fat head" argument for deletes, i make WAY more money fixing the systems. But here in North Carolina where diesels are exempt from emissions testing its hard to explain to a customer the right thing to do vs. the cheaper thing to do when every other Chevy and Ford you see has a 6 inch straight pipe.
 

lindenengineering

Well-known member
Exactly the whole thing is flawed with pitfalls, & I agree wholeheartedly with everything you have stated. :thumbup:
We know it in the trade.
We know it when dealing with with customers who are skeptical of our repair/maintenance recommendations & we get accused of fleecing the American public.
Yes maintaining the system comes with attendant costs and repair shop profits are up doing it with tech people who are qualified, & in turn demand higher salaries which is justified..
More so for me in Colorado where the heat is on to contain E compliance as state initiatives .

I contend the USA isn't ready for strict emission controls as a nation, never has been!
The states collectively are too diverse in that approach.
Add all that to a culture of a "pressure to compete" within the US Auto Alliance members who are becoming joke on this issue pandering to the political whims of successive administrations and we have this situation.

Then inside Washington we have a body of legislators who are "soft" on auto part corporations' lobbying interests promoting the excesses of SOME DIY activities which promote deletions, loopholes and such.

In the end its really up to the owner who becomes a customer to be more savvy about what is going on and to accept higher maintenance cost for the sophistication whether DIY or conducted in a shop.
After all how many times have you said ,"I didn't buy the damn thing., I didn't break it, you did".
"All I am offering is a bone fide method of fixing it which comes at a cost" .


Thanks for the post its refreshing when so many just don't want to go there ,even when its broken and its gonna be a big wallet flush.
Cheers Dennis
 
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lindenengineering

Well-known member
Oh lets stir up the turds in the punch bowl.

So the results of a semi plugged up SCR Cat.
Given a quote at a dealer for about $3500 for a Cat & new NOx sensors, our Mr Jones soldiers on with "in the can" remedies & hoping for a miracle or microwave fix on the cheap.
Then the flex pipe aft of the DPF/CAT separates at the SCR CAT ball joint style clamp and under all the blockage & the whole exhaust moves back on the pin sliders under the influence of excessive gas pressure.
The release of very hot gases scorch the transmission harness and the rig grinds to a halt on the highway!
The sound of a cash register is heard is in the wind .
Of course all this blockage is a causing additional plugging up issue for the DPF/CAT upstream and eventuality turbo. & EGR problems leading to expensive engine issues. Like a $16500 problem o_O !

You see when our fictional Mr Jones buys his new gleaming Sprinter rig, (but it could be a Ford, GMC, )The usual kind corporate goodbye parting words by "Dan" in the F&I office should really be:-
See yah in 130,0000 miles Mr Jones, when you have emissions problems, and just out of warranty.:devilish:

Our Mr Jones never sees the big picture down the road, he has visions of trouble free motoring for years after all, it is a Mercedes isn't it? :LOL:
However when time comes, faced with such repair bills, the emission controls can go to hell !
I have bills to pay & not worry about such stupid things!
I am all for emissions but it doesn't apply to me !


So our Mr Jones is faced with two alternatives , fix it at great cost or rip it all out & be damned.
Like I stated the USA isn't ready for such strict emission controls on their vehicles,.

So we have touched on our typical yet fictional customer called Mr Jones, all but one though a memorable nice past customer called Vern is "real" !
Nice enough guy, an Expeditor with a few vans operated them with his son. Just trying to make a decent living.

Faced with mounting emissions related bills, one day he said "Hey Dennis I ripped all that schit off my vans in Texas .
I don't need these stupid emission controls and my fleet is registered outside the Denver /Colorado Metros I don't need all this crap.
Solution B adopted for "good" but was it?


Someday I will refer to Vern again in a cryptic post ,its pertinent to this narrative.:rolleyes:
All the best and an Irish Catlick blessing to you all!
Testicles spectacles wallet & watch.
Dennis
 
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Aqua Puttana

Poly - Thread Finder
As a practical matter the high cost of emission system repairs would have me looking closely at leasing. The manufacturers seem to be on board with that these days.

That does throw emissions over to a new vehicle being built every three years.

But, back to the topic of emissions repairs and systems.

vic
 

lindenengineering

Well-known member
Well Vic
You have hinted on the other alternative option.
Not always attractive to many people unless they are cash short and opt to"buy 'a PAYMENT with reasonable credit .
If you are a fleet operator who are many & yes it can be very attractive especially on fixed overheads & operational costs .

The real issue is often that a new Sprinter owner buys what is often considered a low mileage unit, say 135,000 recorded miles and quickly thereafter is confronted by emissions related problems borne out of ignorance of potential pitfalls by buying used.
Service records tell all in many cases to the knowledgeable, but all too often people buy vehicles without pre -purchase inspections BEFORE signing the paperwork & commitment to buy.

I for one wouldn't buy a new Sprinter without seriously consider leasing with view to disposal at 3 years or under 100,000 miles and still under an emissions warranty.
The same really goes for electric cars !
ONLY lease with a limited use period and dispose of at 2 years
Dennis,
 

Kajtek1

2015 long/tall limo RV 2.1l
I bought my low-mileage Sprinter at 255k miles.
It did show historic code for DPF, but I paid the price where even putting new DPF was still a good deal.
Since DPF should be consider wearable, it should not break the deal IMHO.
Point is that lot of owners jump on $7000 Sprinter with bench bed on it and having no experience with diesel at all - come to the forum crying.
 

ZekesAutowerks

Sprinter service WNC
Speak of the devil. Dodge dealer told him it was in limp mode because all it needed was a service regen. A.K.A kicked the can down the road. Sent him to me, guess who had to break the bad news. It was an Itasca RV zero room to work on the engine. Fun times. CE0342B6-7CE7-4E4E-93FA-4D37BA15F783.jpeg
 
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Bobnoxious

Made in the USA Qualité Supérieure
Suggested repair?
 

lindenengineering

Well-known member
Yes isn't that engine bay access a wonderful set up! :devilish:
The last Houdini act I did on that Sprinter variant was to drill out and remove busted glow plugs.
Yes its an engine out job .
I usually feed the engine on a BG carbon upper cylinder clean for 30 minutes before a teardown to strip out the carbon in the head ports..
Makes head port & valve head clean up a breeze.
As a fellow tech I worked with in overseas locations:-
That's a "fillet minion job" with a bottle of expensive Barolo to wash it down as a reward for the struggle.
Added to the bill-- of course.:LOL:
Dennis
 

turbo911

Active member
look as i see it the whole diesel emmissions issue as is flawed. every nox killing appliance installed from egr dpf to def to scr results in engine killing by products. couple that with poorly designed and executed placement of components (ekas linkage, oil seals in oil cooler, to name a few. dennis you asked what was appropriate time to replace a filter, the bigger question that i have is why would you maintain those filters(egr,dpf,def scr< etc when you know they are building contaminants in your oil and cylinders effectively killing your engine prematurely. no offense but if you presented me with a $16500 engine replacement estimate plus labor, i think that i would look at a full electric conversion. with all the space available in the sprinter framework a slightly higher cost (about $22.5K )should get you a conversion that gets you 150-180 mile range plus better performance ,ZERO emmissions , using recycled tesla battery modules and a variety of electric engines giving the same hp and torque equivalents.
 

lindenengineering

Well-known member
look as i see it the whole diesel emmissions issue as is flawed. every nox killing appliance installed from egr dpf to def to scr results in engine killing by products. couple that with poorly designed and executed placement of components (ekas linkage, oil seals in oil cooler, to name a few. dennis you asked what was appropriate time to replace a filter, the bigger question that i have is why would you maintain those filters(egr,dpf,def scr< etc when you know they are building contaminants in your oil and cylinders effectively killing your engine prematurely. no offense but if you presented me with a $16500 engine replacement estimate plus labor, i think that i would look at a full electric conversion. with all the space available in the sprinter framework a slightly higher cost (about $22.5K )should get you a conversion that gets you 150-180 mile range plus better performance ,ZERO emmissions , using recycled tesla battery modules and a variety of electric engines giving the same hp and torque equivalents.
Do I need to answer this?
It brings me back to my past statements
The United States is not ready for stricter emission controls ,including the maintenance aspect & if that can be clearly understood then there can be some meaningful discussion.
Lets start with the need for Americans' to have cheap fuel. as a political and economic necessity.
Dennis
 

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