Air conditioner 12vdc/24vdc install

gilee

2006 Sprinter 2500 Camper
If that's the case, I would just install it, charge it, and use it. I am about 90% certain you have remedied the issue.
If the hoses are long enough, do you think hooking the hoses to the compressor but without re-charging the r134a, will cause a LOAD to the compressor?
It will basically be compressing air....

If the gasket seals well, they just reuse it. Only use a sealant if the gasket doesn't seal well in one area.
Honestly, the Compressor was under the Van for about 3 weeks, and I didn't even move my Van... so the gasket itself never seen any dirt/salt.
I looked at the gasket, and it is basically like new.

I will clean it, and rub some silicone grease with a cloth over it before installation to be sure it will be seal tight.
 

Midwestdrifter

Engineer In Residence
If the hoses are long enough, do you think hooking the hoses to the compressor but without re-charging the r134a, will cause a LOAD to the compressor?
It will basically be compressor air....
Not a significant one, as the TXV is designed to restrict and meter liquid.
 

gilee

2006 Sprinter 2500 Camper
Thanks MD...
Hopefully I can celebrate 2 things at once during the 4th! Independence and AC working. :smilewink:
 

gilee

2006 Sprinter 2500 Camper
Having some thoughts about the circuit boards... As all the mosfets and "could be" over 900Watts of loading constantly, must generate alot of heat...and they are all SEALED inside a waterproof case... Will a heatsink, passive cooling be enough to ensure the electronics longevity?

I wonder how the temperature distribute among the internal of the Compressor itself... Should I assume the High Pressure refrigerate is HOT, so the high pressure port half side of the compressor will be generating alot of heat, while the Low Pressure port sucking in Freezing/COLD Refrigerate in the LP port, so the other half of the compressor will be COLD... Is this assumption correct?
20220630_224704.jpg

If the above assumption is true, then the entire heatsink for the mosfets which sits right on top of the COLD Side of the Compressor, and the circuit board should be kept nice and cool while the compressor is running....

And if this is TRUE, then after I recharged the r134a, and test run the AC system, i should feel with my hand that half of the Compressor is COOLER, while half is HOTTER.... Right? If the COLD side electronics' cover is warm... Then something is wrong...??

Is my logic here making sense? Or the entire compressor will eventually saturated with soaked heat??
 
Last edited:

Midwestdrifter

Engineer In Residence
Being that the entire casing is aluminum, it may not be a big demarcation between hot/cold. The suction side flows over the motor itself, and cools the driver board heatsink. Returning refrigerant is usually around 50F or so, and does a good job keeping everything cool. The driver MOSFETs are likely >95% efficiency, so dissipated power is not extreme.

Discharge temperatures are quite high (well over 120F), which would not be sufficient to keep the motor windings and driver from overheating.
 

gilee

2006 Sprinter 2500 Camper
Being that the entire casing is aluminum, it may not be a big demarcation between hot/cold. The suction side flows over the motor itself, and cools the driver board heatsink. Returning refrigerant is usually around 50F or so, and does a good job keeping everything cool. The driver MOSFETs are likely >95% efficiency, so dissipated power is not extreme.

Discharge temperatures are quite high (well over 120F), which would not be sufficient to keep the motor windings and driver from overheating.
Thx MD!
I guess the core valve wont arrive till next week, so hope everyone have an awesome 4th of July!!!
 

gilee

2006 Sprinter 2500 Camper
Read your reply couple times and realized I made a typo in my previous post.
Subcooling temperature is 40.5-41C (Celsius, NOT Fahrenheit)

So the temperature reading at the evap outlet line is at 105F. While High Pressure Gauge is reading 180PSI which corresponding to 124F for r134a

With your math above (replacing 40 with 105), it will be 124F - 105F = 19F (NOT 84F)

I am abit lost here with all the numbers and terminology.

Does this 19F (Not 84F) makes any difference in your response above?
My fault @Midwestdrifter , too hungry, and soaked wet.
Got everything connected, wired up, fully charged r134a, and started up the AC System with 400Hz @ 95% Duty Cycle.
Starts right up and working. :thumbup:

I recorded some measurements and will like to ask what you guys think.
  • Started charging at 5:45PM, Ambient Temp 80F
  • After fully charged 520grams of r134a and waited another 5-10 mins and recorded the Temperatures
  • Evaporator Vent outlet: 7.5C / 45.5F
  • Manifold Gauge Reading: 32PSI & 165PSI - 48C / 118.4F
    • The PSI does goes up and down periodically a little, like 31PSI & 170PSI - 50C / 122F
  • Condenser outlet Temperature: 36C / 96.8F
  • AC System consuming 1000-1050 Watt (all Fan on MAX) (@ 95% Duty Cycle)
So with Guage - Line Temperature = Subcooling.
118.4F - 96.8F = 21.6F
I think the Subcooling of 21.6F is considered very good.

But I am a bit confused on the reading is that, as I waited 15-20mins after fully charged. I see the temperature reading from the condenser outlet line keep going up, then down and up.... between 33-37C (91.4F-98.6F), and lowest to 31C / 87.8F...
While the High Pressure PSI, changes only between ~165to ~170PSI (I don't have the temperature reading next to the gauges, so I have to run inside and outside to read the 2 values, so maybe they changed?)

@Midwestdrifter, you think the condenser outlet line temperature & subcooling temperature is normal?
 

Midwestdrifter

Engineer In Residence
A small oscillation in pressure/temp is normal. The TXV is a mechanical device, and it has some internal friction, which can create a small hysteresis.

20F subcooling is within the normal range for 80F ambient. The subcooling will drop as the ambient temperature increases. This is normal. Excessive subcooling would indicate an overcharge, or restricted TXV.

45F evap outlet temperature is good. With a low side pressure of 32psi, that indicates your superheat is around 8F, so you have good airflow over the evap, and the charge seems good. You may be able to add a bit more refrigerant for slightly better high temp performance, but you would need to verify performance in ~100F ambients. You would also need to watch your compressor power consumption, as you may be near its max rating at that temp.
 

gilee

2006 Sprinter 2500 Camper
20F subcooling is within the normal range for 80F ambient. The subcooling will drop as the ambient temperature increases. This is normal. Excessive subcooling would indicate an overcharge, or restricted TXV.
Ok, so basically if ambient temperature is 90F, Subcooling will be lower, like 15F?
What temperature is considered excessive subcooling? Below 10F?

45F evap outlet temperature is good. With a low side pressure of 32psi, that indicates your superheat is around 8F, so you have good airflow over the evap, and the charge seems good.
May I ask where you or how you come up with the 8F superheat valve? (I am looking at the Low Pressure Gauge, and 32PSI is 0C for r134a.)

You may be able to add a bit more refrigerant for slightly better high temp performance, but you would need to verify performance in ~100F ambients. You would also need to watch your compressor power consumption, as you may be near its max rating at that temp.
What values/measurement telling you that I should add more refrigerant?

When you say power consumption, you mean the wattage the AC uses at max? Currently is around 1000-1050Watt, which is equate to around 76-80A. This is much lower than previously, as it runs in around 1200watt or 90amps.... I wonder if that is due to the excessive resistance of the burnt busbar.

I am not sure what you mean by "near its max rating at the temp".... Can you elaborate more on this? Thanks again @Midwestdrifter !
 

Midwestdrifter

Engineer In Residence
Ok, so basically if ambient temperature is 90F, Subcooling will be lower, like 15F?
What temperature is considered excessive subcooling? Below 10F?
What counts as excessive will vary with ambient temp, anything over 20F is a bit excessive. Low subcooling would be around 8F or so. You always need a bit of subcooling to prevent the refrigerant from flashing before it reaches the TXV.

May I ask where you or how you come up with the 8F superheat valve? (I am looking at the Low Pressure Gauge, and 32PSI is 0C for r134a.)
I see that 32psi is 37F vapor pressure for R134a, so 45-37=8F superheat. This is an estimate though, you need to measure the suction line to get the true refrigerant temperature coming from the evap. It will always be similar to the outlet duct temp, but can be a couple degrees lower sometimes.


What values/measurement telling you that I should add more refrigerant?
I am not sure you need to add any, not without checking the system performance at a higher ambient. The reason I think you might need a bit more at high ambient, is that your subcooling is a touch lower than I would expect, and your superheat is a touch low. It isn't enough to be sure, as these TXV and variable compressor speed systems need to be observed in actual conditions before adjusting the charge.


When you say power consumption, you mean the wattage the AC uses at max? Currently is around 1000-1050Watt, which is equate to around 76-80A. This is much lower than previously, as it runs in around 1200watt or 90amps.... I wonder if that is due to the excessive resistance of the burnt busbar.
Yes, monitoring compressor power is part of adjusting and troubleshooting most AC systems. Lower power consumption is very likely related to the repair, which is part of the reason a power/current monitoring is important. If we had a good baseline of compressor current (say from a factory spec manual for this system), we could have pinpointed the compressor right off as a problem.

I am not sure what you mean by "near its max rating at the temp".
The compressor is a constant speed type, the controller tries to maintain a specific rpm. As the ambient temperature increases, the high side pressure increases as well. High head pressure increases the compressor load and power consumption. Increasing the condensing temperature/pressure will improve system output in hot weather, but also increases compressor load, so you need to take compressor load into account if tuning a system for very hot weather. Since this is a TXV system it isn't as simple as an orifice/cap tube type, but its still doable.

Because this system has a decent sized accumulator, it is less sensitive to charge volume at lower ambient temperatures. The important thing at high temps is to have enough refrigerant to saturate the condenser to get the best heat rejection, within the compressors limits obviously. It isn't clear yet if you need to add refrigerant, so just use the system, and if hot weather performance (outlet duct temp) isn't up to spec, we can reassess.
 

gilee

2006 Sprinter 2500 Camper
Thanks @Midwestdrifter :thanx:

I just realized I mixed up the word condenser and evaporator when I talked about measuring subcooling temperature. oops. I always meant the condenser for subcooling.

What counts as excessive will vary with ambient temp, anything over 20F is a bit excessive. Low subcooling would be around 8F or so. You always need a bit of subcooling to prevent the refrigerant from flashing before it reaches the TXV.
From yesterday reading... The condenser out line reading changes between 31C to 36.5C (87.8F to 97.7F), mostly within 33C to 36C (91.4F to 96.8F) all within ~165-170PSI plus or minus a little

With my condenser out line temperature changes almost 10F, that means my Subcooling temperature will range between 118.4F - 91.4F = 27F OR 118.4F - 96.8F = 21.6F

Based on the number, no matter what condenser out temperatures reading, I still get over 20F, so it
should be considering excessive right?

Since like you said, since "oscillation in pressure/temp is normal" and we are talking about ~10F difference, should I use the high or low reading for calculating the subcooling? Or it doesn't work that way?


I see that 32psi is 37F vapor pressure for R134a, so 45-37=8F superheat. This is an estimate though, you need to measure the suction line to get the true refrigerant temperature coming from the evap. It will always be similar to the outlet duct temp, but can be a couple degrees lower sometimes.
I thought superheat is calculated by Line Temperature MINUS Gauge Temperature. In this case, shouldn't it be 37F - 45F = -8F Superheat?

Do you recommend I tape my temperature sensor to the suction line right before the compressor Low Pressure Port? My outlet of the Evaporator line are fully insulated, so unless I rip them apart, I won't be able to probe it.



And thank you for clarifying all the other questions I had earlier.
I will clean up all the wiring and etc, and continue to use it for this summer while closely monitor the power consumption, ambient temperature and the evaporator vents' temperature.
Will definitely update everyone once I get any updates!
But as of now, I am super grateful and excited that the AC is back up and working again! Will know for sure it is fixed once it works for few days/weeks!
 

Midwestdrifter

Engineer In Residence
Based on the number, no matter what condenser out temperatures reading, I still get over 20F, so it
should be considering excessive right?
Its a bit high, yes, but your ambient temps are low. Compare the compressors rated power to the actual power. Is it within spec? If so, then its possible the system just has a very big condenser. If it stays like that at high ambient temps, and your compressor power is elevated, then you may need to reduce the charge some.

Since like you said, since "oscillation in pressure/temp is normal" and we are talking about ~10F difference, should I use the high or low reading for calculating the subcooling? Or it doesn't work that way?
You use the instant reading, so note the pressure at the time you take the temperature. If the readings are changing too quickly, use an average.

I thought superheat is calculated by Line Temperature MINUS Gauge Temperature. In this case, shouldn't it be 37F - 45F = -8F Superheat?
Superheat is always positive, as the line temp will always be above the gauge temp. If your line temp is below the gauge temp, then its subcooled (liquid) refrigerant, if line temp is above gauge temp, then the refrigerant is superheated (gas).

Do you recommend I tape my temperature sensor to the suction line right before the compressor Low Pressure Port? My outlet of the Evaporator line are fully insulated, so unless I rip them apart, I won't be able to probe it.
That is fine, If your lines are fully insulated, the temp difference between the evap outlet and the compressor inlet will be negligible. On very long line sets sometimes its necessary to measure at the evap directly, but that isn't the case here.

I would check the system once in high ambient, but otherwise I wouldn't bother checking it regularly unless your power consumption gets unusually high.
 

firebat45

Well-known member
Just want to chime in and say that this info is super useful. It might seem like it's just you two talking and you could just as easily use PMs, but I appreciate it being posted so that I can follow along, and I am sure other people do too.

I'm picking up my mini split this evening and hopefully will be installing soon.
 

Midwestdrifter

Engineer In Residence
Just want to chime in and say that this info is super useful. It might seem like it's just you two talking and you could just as easily use PMs, but I appreciate it being posted so that I can follow along, and I am sure other people do too.

I'm picking up my mini split this evening and hopefully will be installing soon.
I am glad its helpful.

Be aware that mini splits are bit different than the system described here. Mainly the metering device is an EEV, and its located inside the outdoor unit, So all the external lines carry vapor. Not a huge difference, but does matter sometimes. Mini Splits almost always have to be charged by weight unless they have a special charge adjustment/test mode with fixed compressor speed (not common).

Good luck!
 
Last edited:

gilee

2006 Sprinter 2500 Camper
Its a bit high, yes, but your ambient temps are low. Compare the compressors rated power to the actual power. Is it within spec? If so, then its possible the system just has a very big condenser. If it stays like that at high ambient temps, and your compressor power is elevated, then you may need to reduce the charge some.

You use the instant reading, so note the pressure at the time you take the temperature. If the readings are changing too quickly, use an average.

Superheat is always positive, as the line temp will always be above the gauge temp. If your line temp is below the gauge temp, then its subcooled (liquid) refrigerant, if line temp is above gauge temp, then the refrigerant is superheated (gas).

That is fine, If your lines are fully insulated, the temp difference between the evap outlet and the compressor inlet will be negligible. On very long line sets sometimes its necessary to measure at the evap directly, but that isn't the case here.

I would check the system once in high ambient, but otherwise I wouldn't bother checking it regularly unless your power consumption gets unusually high.
Thanks again MD!
I will clean up all the wiring and unplug the temperature sensor for now. Will do another measurement when temp hit mid-high 90F here, or if anything unusual.

I did let out r134a for approx ~3-5 sec (wide open) as I didn't close the low pressure valve on the manifold (With AC off, so not sucking in air)
Last time, I charged 530gram, this time I charge 550gram but I lost about 3-5 sec of r134a... so I can only guess I am maybe around 500gram of r134a in the system now.


I just ran the AC system for about 20mins (81F outside, Humidity 61%) at different Duty Cycle, and I recorded some numbers.
It does feel GREAT, that this time, the AC just RUN when I turn it on. Crossing my finger this will stay working this time around!


Comparing with the FACTORY SPEC of the compressor:
2000RPM = 5% Duty Cycle (at min), 35%=3000RPM, 65%=4000RPM and 95%=5000RPM (at max)
1657299618556.png
Do keep in mind: Condenser Fan draws 9.5A & Evap Blower 4.5A (Total 182Watt @ 13v)

20220708_120640.jpg20220708_121215.jpg20220708_121547.jpg20220708_121820.jpg
The Total AC power consumption are: (all seems lower than Spec stated)
  • 95%, 5000RPM/8000BTU = 1040Watt - 180Watt = Compressor @860Watt (Spec stated 0.89KW)
  • 65%, 4000RPM/6200BTU = 810Watt - 180Watt = Compressor @630Watt (Spec stated 0.71KW)
  • 35%, 3000RPM/4500BTU = 610Watt - 180Watt = Compressor @430Watt (Spec stated 0.54KW)
  • 5%, 2000RPM/2900BTU = 450Watt - 180Watt = Compressor @270Watt (Spec stated 0.37KW)
Interestingly enough,
as I tune down the compressor RPM (lowering the BTU output), the Evap vent temperature rises, and the condenser output line temperature drops.

At 5% or only 450Watts, my AC vent still blowing 14.5C (58F) of cool air. I think this will be enough for sleeping time at night.


My only concern right now is that, the vent output temperature is only 9.5C / 49F at MAX 95% duty cycle. I didn't wait too long, maybe 5 mins after started the AC, but I am thinking if that can be related to venting/losing approximately 3-5sec of r134a when I was unhooking the gauges (valve wide open)....
 

Midwestdrifter

Engineer In Residence
My only concern right now is that, the vent output temperature is only 9.5C / 49F at MAX 95% duty cycle. I didn't wait too long, maybe 5 mins after started the AC, but I am thinking if that can be related to venting/losing approximately 3-5sec of r134a when I was unhooking the gauges....
If its very humid, the evap outlet vent temp can be a bit higher than expected. If you leave it running with the doors closed, the temp should drop as the humidity gets pulled out of the air.

Your power consumption at full speed is >90% of rated, so I don't think you need extra refrigerant at this stage.
 

gilee

2006 Sprinter 2500 Camper
If its very humid, the evap outlet vent temp can be a bit higher than expected. If you leave it running with the doors closed, the temp should drop as the humidity gets pulled out of the air.
Got it. Thank you MD! Hopefully that 3-5sec of losing r134a still have around 500gram in the system.
Will update everyone again in few weeks or end of summer.
 

spaner

Florence - 144 AWD Cargo
I am glad its helpful.

Be aware that mini splits are bit different than the system described here. Mainly the metering device is an EEV, and its located inside the outdoor unit, So all the external lines carry vapor. Not a huge difference, but does matter sometimes. Mini Splits almost always have to be charged by weight unless they have a special charge adjustment/test mode with fixed compressor speed (not common).

Good luck!
I will second the comment from @firebat45 - In about 6 months plan to hack my Midea U shape (I am assuming I can think of it as psuedo mini split) in half and so trying to absorb the black art of HVAC
 

Midwestdrifter

Engineer In Residence
absorb the black art of HVAC
Your gonna need two chickens, and a goat, some candles, and maybe a bit of newts eye. How good are you at drawing pentagrams?

The midea unit uses a cap tube, so its a bit simpler to get a good charge without resorting to weight, assuming the computer controlled compressor plays nice with R410a, as its hard to get R32 here in the states. You may need to adjust the cap tube length if you use R410. I didn't look at the pressure specs, but you may be able to use R260/propane a cheap alternative.

I also believe you can hack together a standalone control unit for those, as the compressor drive chip can likely be driven separate from the on board logic. It wouldn't be simple, but doable with an arduino and a bit of code.
 

gilee

2006 Sprinter 2500 Camper
I spent some time looking at using arduino to drive my AC system, and see that Arduino hardware wise will only output 490Hz natively (chip's frequency) And I tried running the compressor before I took it apart, and the compressor does want to spin up anywhere between 10Hz to 600Hz that I tried.

So today, I tried running the compressor at 490Hz @ 50% Duty Cycle (using the PWM controller - not Arduino) and notice the compressor consume more power than 400Hz @ 50% Duty Cycle. 490Hz uses 850Watt at 50%, while 400Hz only uses 720Watts.

I am not good at PWM/wave forms, but thinking if 490Hz @ 50% is something like 400Hz @ 65%?
I do worry to run it too long, as the seller told me do not change the Frequency (keep it only at 400Hz) and adjust the Duty Cycle only.

Any thoughts on this? Maybe can shine some light onto how the compressor usually operates with Frequency + Duty Cycle, PWM input.
If I have to keep it at 400Hz, it will be alot more work, when working with Arduino.
 

Top Bottom