Victron Cyrix Li-Ct - Experience?

Zundfolge

Always learning...
Hi all, helping a friend with her van but also curious about this thing for my own application. I'd like the system to be as hands off as possible, so had been thinking about using the relay functions from the BMV-712 with a BSS ML-RBS, but I'm not sure that accomplishes what I need. I know that many choose to use something like a Sterling or other dc-dc charger, but I'm trying to keep the costs as low as I can, and those things are expensive. Seems like much of what needs to be accomplished in terms of charging and isolation can be set with a combination of D+ and BMV-relay input (into the ML-RBS), without any kind of buck-boost type charger? Possible plot twist, this is for a 2018 Promaster. Don't kick me off of sprinter-source plz thx.

So I'm curious about the Cyrix Li-Ct for this kind of application. Seems like it picks up where regular ACR's leave off in terms of Lithium charging? Or for the most hands-off approach am I better off going with something like a Sterling or other dc-dc charger?


I made this diagram mostly for myself to gather materials and organize my thoughts, but I'll put it here anyway. Thanks!
Vanronica jpg_2.jpg
 

RVBarry

2023 AWD 170 DIY CamperVan
Hi, if the alternator is over 150A, I believe you need to use the larger Cyrix model:

Also note if the vehicle has a smart alternator, it may never fully charge the lithium batteries.
This can be supplemented with a solar system.
 

SSTraveler

2014 LTV Unity Murphy Bed
The Cyrix-Li-Ct 12/24v 230a is a great choice for a Li battery charging relay for vehicles that don't have Smart Alternators.
Smart alternators typically have a lower voltage charge when the vehicle is accelerating and then a drastically higher voltage when the vehicle is coasting. This is a way to minimize the load on the engine when needing the power of the engine and then maximize the load when the vehicle is slowing down. Here's how you determine if you have a smart alternator or not:
1. Locate your main vehicle battery
2. Start the engine, ensuring any fans, radio, lights etc. are turned off.
3. Take a voltage reading across the main vehicle battery
4. Leave running for around 5/10 minutes, then repeat step 3
If your readings are around 14.4V DC then then you most likely have the traditional, non-smart alternator.
If your readings are closer to 12.5-13.5V, then it’s likely that you have a smart alternator. I don't know about the Ram Promaster, but for Sprinter 3500 chassis used in my brand motorhome, Mercedes added Smart Alternators to the 2019 and newer chassis. You might find this link as helpful to explain the various applications with alternator charging and Li batteries, https://shop.pkys.com/Alternator-Lithium-Battery.html. The PKNY.com site offers lots of detailed information on electronics products used in conversions, https://shop.pkys.com/Technical-Pages_ep_41.html.
 
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Ulter

Member
I don't know about the Ram Promaster, but for Sprinters, Mercedes added Smart Alternators to the 2019 and newer chassis.
Are you certain about this? I believe the only US-spec Sprinters that have “smart” alternators are the NCV3 4cyl. The new VS30 diesel do not have “smart” alternators. Does anyone know if the gas VS30 has a smart alternator? I know the Metris has one.
 

SSTraveler

2014 LTV Unity Murphy Bed
You are right, my statement was to broad, I'm referring to the 2019 and newer Sprinter 3500 chassis used as the platform for my brand motorhome. Regardless of the Sprinter terminology, the Cyrix isn't used with Smart Alternators. A DC to DC charger, like the Victron Orion Tr, would be a good choice.
 
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Zundfolge

Always learning...
Hi, if the alternator is over 150A, I believe you need to use the larger Cyrix model:

Also note if the vehicle has a smart alternator, it may never fully charge the lithium batteries.
This can be supplemented with a solar system.

I've tried searching to see if Promasters have them but I think I'll have to just test it next time I have the van. Also, the total alternator output is not what I'd use to determine the size of the Cyrix. An alternator would only supply what voltage the rest of the vehicle doesn't use, i.e. for most Sprinters the alternator is capable of delivering something like either 40A or 60A for supplemental charging ( I can't remember which is recommended). Hence 6AWG from the alt. + a 50A CB if you check my diagram. There would never be anywhere even close to 150A coming into the house bank (except in case of a short, hence the CB)...


The Cyrix-Li-Ct 12/24v 230a is a great choice for a Li battery charging relay for vehicles that don't have Smart Alternators.
Smart alternators typically have a lower voltage charge when the vehicle is accelerating and then a drastically higher voltage when the vehicle is coasting. This is a way to minimize the load on the engine when needing the power of the engine and then maximize the load when the vehicle is slowing down. Here's how you determine if you have a smart alternator or not:
1. Locate your main vehicle battery
2. Start the engine, ensuring any fans, radio, lights etc. are turned off.
3. Take a voltage reading across the main vehicle battery
4. Leave running for around 5/10 minutes, then repeat step 3
If your readings are around 14.4V DC then then you most likely have the traditional, non-smart alternator.
If your readings are closer to 12.5-13.5V, then it’s likely that you have a smart alternator. I don't know about the Ram Promaster, but for Sprinter 3500 chassis used in my brand motorhome, Mercedes added Smart Alternators to the 2019 and newer chassis. You might find this link as helpful to explain the various applications with alternator charging and Li batteries, https://shop.pkys.com/Alternator-Lithium-Battery.html. The PKNY.com site offers lots of detailed information on electronics products used in conversions, https://shop.pkys.com/Technical-Pages_ep_41.html.

My hesitation to using the Cyrix is that while it seems to check the box of a Lithium compatible ACR, I'd like relay function from the BMV-712 for over temperature, SOC, and voltage. Plodding through information and diagrams now of both the Cyrix and the ML-RBS to see what will ultimately work and work well. Since this is for a friend and not for me it needs to be as hands off as possible whilst protecting her $1,400 battery. Just want her to really only have to monitor SOC and tailor her usage accordingly, but not have to flip any switches or open and close any relays, unless she needs the momentary connectivity of an assisted start, which would be via an in cab switch. It's looking like I can get this functionality from the ML-RBS with Auto Release. Diagramming now...
 

Ulter

Member
The Promaster does NOT have a smart alternator. Yes you can use the smaller Li-Ct. Good idea to add a circuit breaker or switch near the seat to switch the Li-Ct off on long drives.
 

GHansen

Dangerous, yes, but mainly to himself
Are you certain about this? I believe the only US-spec Sprinters that have “smart” alternators are the NCV3 4cyl. The new VS30 diesel do not have “smart” alternators. Does anyone know if the gas VS30 has a smart alternator? I know the Metris has one.

Timely topic as I just installed an alternator charging kit in my 2015 4-cyl NCV3. I bought the kit at AM Solar here in Oregon and it came with the Victron Cyrix-Li-ct 12/24V-230A. I didn't realize there were 'smart' and 'non-smart' alternators when purchasing the kit. Do all NCV3 4cyl models have smart alternators? And if mine does have a smart alternator does this mean the Cyrix should be replaced with something else, or just that it may not fully charge the batteries (3 Battle Born Lithium)?
 

Zundfolge

Always learning...
Well I can't seem to figure it out without needing to use both the Cyrix, and an ML-RBS to take advantage of BMV relay functions. Below is what I was playing with to see it all lain out, but realizing that D+ would always provide current with the thing on, so overtemp or other functions would be overridden by that current...

Back to the drawing board.Vanronica V1.1_2.jpg
 
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Ulter

Member
It’s hard to say because you won’t know unless you test it. First time I heard about smart alternators was when Avanti mentioned it. This was after I installed a Li-Ct in my 2014 4cyl Sprinter. I didn’t notice anything odd about the way this Sprinter charged. It seemed similar to my 2007 6cyl Sprinter that I had before.
 

Zundfolge

Always learning...
Ok I have one possibility below. If you focus on the upper right quadrant here, Cyrix is active in its normal operating conditions, as well as will take signal from in cab switch; ML-RBS is active from D+ signal through a generic NC relay, and the BMV-712 can open and close that generic relay based on its setpoints. That will either open or close the ML-RBS. The key was installing that other relay to isolate the D+ signal.

Now, there may be a much easier way to do this but I am no electrical engineer by any means whatsoever, so I'd gladly welcome any input anyone has as to how to accomplish this in a simpler manner? Surely I'm overcomplicating things...Vanronica V1.3_2.jpg
 
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RVBarry

2023 AWD 170 DIY CamperVan
An alternator would only supply what voltage the rest of the vehicle doesn't use, i.e. for most Sprinters the alternator is capable of delivering something like either 40A or 60A for supplemental charging ( I can't remember which is recommended). Hence 6AWG from the alt. + a 50A CB if you check my diagram. There would never be anywhere even close to 150A coming into the house bank (except in case of a short, hence the CB)...
Current, not voltage.
A large alternator will have a large amount of current available.
The sprinter DO NOT limit current to 40A. That is an MBZ recommendation not to EXCEED 40A, but there is no automatic limit or enforcement.
My hesitation to using the Cyrix is that while it seems to check the box of a Lithium compatible ACR, I'd like relay function from the BMV-712 for over temperature, SOC, and voltage. Plodding through information and diagrams now of both the Cyrix and the ML-RBS to see what will ultimately work and work well.
Ok I have one possibility below. If you focus on the upper right quadrant here, Cyrix is active in its normal operating conditions, as well as will take signal from in cab switch; ML-RBS is active from D+ signal through a generic NC relay, and the BMV-712 can open and close that generic relay based on its setpoints. That will either open or close the ML-RBS. The key was installing that other relay to isolate the D+ signal.
My understanding is the Victron Cyrix devices replace the need for a relay, so I don't know why you would also need the ML-RBS?

I'm not a Victron expert though, and would recommend you talk to a good reseller such as AMSolar or PKYS.
 

Zundfolge

Always learning...
My understanding is the Victron Cyrix devices replace the need for a relay, so I don't know why you would also need the ML-RBS?

I'm not a Victron expert though, and would recommend you talk to a good reseller such as AMSolar or PKYS.

See my above comments about integrating relay functions from the BMV...
 

Zundfolge

Always learning...
Hm ok, looks like maybe I can get rid of the RBS. In all of their diagrams they integrate the external VEBus BMS (not sure if their batteries have built in BMS's or not, I think they are external?), so since this build is using a Renogy battery with its own built in BMS I wonder if the charge disconnect signal is simply 12V, or a different signal that only the VEBus can provide? I wonder if the relay signal from the BMV can substitute? I'll have to diagram this out and contact them to see what they'd suggest. Thanks for your input!
 

RVBarry

2023 AWD 170 DIY CamperVan
Let us know what you find out.

In some diagrams I've seen, both a BMS and BMV are used. Annoying how complex Victron systems can be.

All smart batteries have an internal BMS, but it is a last resort as it will completely shutdown the battery for a period of time, or until all current (charging and loads) is completely removed. (different brands behave differently)
I assume Victron's batteries are smart, but they've priced themselves out of my market so I'm not studying them. A lot of people use other batteries with Victron electronics.
 

RedBlogger

New member
Disclaimer: I don't actually own a Victron BMV myself, all knowledge I have about it comes strictly from my reading through the manual a few times in the course of doing research for my own future build.
2nd disclaimer: I'm generally familiar with what an ACR does, but had never heard of the Cyrix-Li-CT specifically until 5 minutes ago when I read your post :)

Therefore, treat this post with the appropriate amount of dismissability :) That being said...

It seems to me you don't need the second device, the BSS ML-RBS, and will be just fine with just the Cyrix-Li-CT and the BMV. Looking at the Cyrix manual, I think you have the right idea in your post#15, to just send a generic +12V signal to the Cyrix as your control input. You just need to use the D+ as this +12V signal, and use the BMV's relay to control when to send it.

The Cyrix has 4 terminals:
van battery +ve
lithium battery +ve
a Control Input
a battery -ve for grounding

In the Cyrix manual, it says it will engage when the Control Input is "high" (it sees ~12V at the control terminal) and disengage when the Control Input is "free-floating or pulled to ground". So it seems to charge through the Cyrix-Li-CT, it needs to see BOTH a ~12V signal at the control input AND a voltage greater than ~13V at either the starter battery terminal or the lithium battery terminal.

Note:
It looks like the Cyrix is operating by sensing voltage on both batteries, meaning in theory you have the option of wiring things such that, when the van is off, the Cyrix will automatically charge the van battery from the lithium battery when V_lithium > ~13 V
If you go with wiring the D+ signal into the Cyrix relay controls, you will lose this feature. Does that matter? I'm guessing the answer is no...
(Of course, you would still have the ability to manually connect them using the start assist switch)

So here's what I would do:
- wire the D+ into one of the relay terminals on the BMV
- wire the other BMV relay terminal to the Control Input port of the Cyrix
- program the relay control settings in the BMV appropriately
- For manual start assist, run a wire from the lithium battery +ve to one terminal of the cab switch, the other cab switch terminal goes to the Control Input on the Cyrix. I think you can even make this a momentary switch (so she can't forget to turn it off), as it seems like the Cyrix programming will read a momentary +12V at the Control Input as a command to close the relay for 30sec

There are a large number of BMV settings, especially if you're adding temperature monitoring and control, but I think you want to carefully set these ones as far as lithium battery voltage/SOC (names of settings taken from the BMV manual):
- SOC relay: will close the BMV relay terminals (i.e. send ~+12V to the Cyrix Control Input, enabling charging) when SOC is less than this value. I would pick something like 85% here. If you only want to enable charging when the battery is very low, and rely on solar or shore power most of the time, pick something like 20% here.
- Clear SOC relay: will open the BMV relay terminals (i.e. disable charging on the Cyrix) when SOC is above this value. I'd pick like ~95% here to be on the safe side.
- Low voltage relay: will close BMV relay when V_lithium is below this value. Pick something safe based on your battery's datasheet.
- Clear Low voltage relay: opens BMV relay when V_lithium is above this value - again pick something safe
- High voltage relay: closes the BMV relay when V_lithium is above this value. Probably want to set this value to something outrageously high like 50V. You never want to connect the van and lithium batteries when V_lithium is at high voltage
- Clear high voltage relay: see above
- other settings like temperature control, minimum relay engagement times, etc. are at your discretion :)


Hope this helps.
 
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Zundfolge

Always learning...
It seems to me you don't need the second device, the BSS ML-RBS, and will be just fine with just the Cyrix-Li-CT and the BMV. Looking at the Cyrix manual, I think you have the right idea in your post#15, to just send a generic +12V signal to the Cyrix as your control input. You just need to use the D+ as this +12V signal, and use the BMV's relay to control when to send it.

In the Cyrix manual, it says it will engage when the Control Input is "high" (it sees ~12V at the control terminal) and disengage when the Control Input is "free-floating or pulled to ground". So it seems to charge through the Cyrix-Li-CT, it needs to see BOTH a ~12V signal at the control input AND a voltage greater than ~13V at either the starter battery terminal or the lithium battery terminal.

Note:
It looks like the Cyrix is operating by sensing voltage on both batteries, meaning in theory you have the option of wiring things such that, when the van is off, the Cyrix will automatically charge the van battery from the lithium battery when V_lithium > ~13 V
If you go with wiring the D+ signal into the Cyrix relay controls, you will lose this feature. Does that matter? I'm guessing the answer is no...
(Of course, you would still have the ability to manually connect them using the start assist switch)

Head's currently swimming trying to make sense of the correct option here. I now know that I can do away with the RBS - which is good (like $220 good). I see that the Cyrix needs both Vbatt input to 85 to close the relay; and 13.4V at either battery terminal (87 or 30). I'm not sure I see the need to integrate D+ into the equation since it's sensing voltages to parallel the battery connections. Again, I think I need to diagram this, words only go so far.

There are some good explanations here in this victron community thread. One thing I'm still confused about is whether the Li-Ct, or the Li-Charge would be the right choice? I think the Ct is the way to go, sounds like the "charge" version is for using specifically a charger, and not the integration into a 2 battery system of dissimilar chemistries.

One seemingly not ideal attribute of this thing is that I don't want it to connect when it senses that the LiFePO4 battery is 13.4V+, which would happen with the van off and during PV input. Seems like an oversight in design - at least for my application. I only want bidirectional function during "start assist," but I can't see why it would be designed to charge the lead battery from the Lithium one. There ought to be a way to accomplish what I need since the thing also needs Vbatt on pin 85 - so as long as that input is controlled by the BMV, and crap, maybe D+.

I have more homework to do...
 

RedBlogger

New member
One seemingly not ideal attribute of this thing is that I don't want it to connect when it senses that the LiFePO4 battery is 13.4V+, which would happen with the van off and during PV input. Seems like an oversight in design - at least for my application. I only want bidirectional function during "start assist," but I can't see why it would be designed to charge the lead battery from the Lithium one. There ought to be a way to accomplish what I need since the thing also needs Vbatt on pin 85 - so as long as that input is controlled by the BMV, and crap, maybe D+.

I have more homework to do...

I agree 100% that this is an undesirable feature. For what it's worth, I will also be disabling it in my future electrical system.

That is the only purpose/benefit of integrating D+ into the system: to disable this feature. Some people would be content to just tee-in the van battery or lithium battery +ve into the Cyrix's Control Input (pin 85 as you say), essentially meaning it is always high and enabling charging, and just let the voltage thresholds within the Cyrix control the enable/disable of charging.

I think you are making things too complicated for yourself :)
Attached is a diagram of how I would wire it up in your case. I think this would work (use fuses where appropriate)

case 1: If D+ is off --> no connection between van and lithium batteries
case 2: If D+ is on --> charging is possible only IF the BMV is allowing charging (lithium SOC and voltage are "in range") by sending the D+ signal through its relay into pin 85
case 3: If D+ is on AND BMV is allowing charging --> charging is possible only IF one (or both) of the van battery and lithium voltages are >~13V (or whatever the exact enable voltage within the Cyrix is)
case 4: If D+ is off and the momentary switch is pressed --> Cyrix will connect the batteries for 30 seconds, for emergency starting

In that 3rd case, I guess it is theoretically possible to have the scenario where the engine is on, the BMV is allowing charging, the Cyrix is connected because one (or both) of the battery voltages are above the threshold, but the lithium battery is at a higher voltage than the van battery, so charging will be going the "opposite" way. Seems unlikely though, since if the engine is on, the van battery should be at alternator voltage, whereas the lithium should never be above ~14V or whatever the max safe voltage is.
 

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RVBarry

2023 AWD 170 DIY CamperVan
One seemingly not ideal attribute of this thing is that I don't want it to connect when it senses that the LiFePO4 battery is 13.4V+, which would happen with the van off and during PV input. Seems like an oversight in design - at least for my application.
Hi, if the vehicle is parked for long periods, it's good to have something topping off the chassis battery.
There's a lot of DCDC chargers and small solar panels offered as solutions to that for RV'ers.
 

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