Why lockdowns are the wrong policy

[ECU]

Now here is a different kind of thinking:
I know which world I would rather live in.

Actually, that is the same type of thinking. The Irish are just supporting the Choctaw to stay at home and live off of the generosity of others. Same thing I was saying.
Or you could say that the Irish are finally able to step up from welfare and be self supportive.

 

[rollerbearing]

The sad part is that the homeless group is showing to be resilient to the virus.

This single line lays bare your intent.

 

[flman]

The issue is employer liability.
If an an employee gets infected while on the job ,is sick for an extended duration or dies, then who is responsible?

In a nutshell will Workmans Compensation cover this and what could be determined as running a risky workplace in court of law exposing the employer to huge legal costs & compensation .
In short worrisome if you don't enact the social distancing & face mask policies with customers, limits & contact.
Dennis

I think I am going to hide under my bed, because something might happen to me otherwise.

 

[ECU]

I have zero respect for the homeless. Locally, motels have opened, due to the virus, to homeless for free. The local population did not take the offer. Still living on the street.
How did these people get here? Government housing kicks out people who don't get along and follow the rules. So these are people who are so antisocial, they can't even get free housing.
If a dog was this bad, you'd put it down.
Maybe you don't have the problem where you live. Around here, it looks like the Zombie apocalypse. No short term out of luck types. We have tents at city hall. Even in the good times, I wouldn't send a kid to the corner park alone. You can't have a bike parked outside, they'll take what ever is loose or easy to steal.
Yes, you're right. They all belong locked away.

 

[flman]

Today, I did my first client hand shake, neither of us washed our hand or disinfected afterwards, and we broke the six foot rule with no mask!
I am back to only washing my hands before I eat, or touch food, well except for apples and other skinned fruits.

 

[flman]

ECU said:


The sad part is that the homeless group is showing to be resilient to the virus.

This single line lays bare your intent.

Because they are not sanitizing or staying sterile, the idiocracy of this lock down grows more apparent every day.

 

[lindenengineering]

Just ancillary comment;-
ADT the payroll company are about to report 21 million jobs have been cut last month!
Scary
Dennis

 

[OrioN]

 

[ECU]

Y'all can now see what I mean.

 

[autostaretx]

Well it's all under planning & revision, but already we are enacting a disinfect policy on all hand contact areas in the cab before and pre-handover with a label of sorts to show all contact surfaces are clean & ready for customer delivery.
Its whole new ball game for the employer/business owner.
Dennis

May i suggest contacting these folks: https://smile.amazon.com/Royal-Toilet-Seat-Bands-Case/dp/B00M2F55F6?tag=sprintersou02-20

For their ever-popular paper product to place on the steering wheel:


only $46 for 2000.... (free shipping)

--dick (help-the-forum tag has been added to Amazon link)

 

[Aqua Puttana]

As you discuss, there's a bunch of things to consider. Not just Flattening the Curve.

I've begun to wonder...
We already have a group of people who stay home and don't work. It is called Welfare. Permanently. They get housing, healthcare and food. These people are also the folks most at risk according to data.
...

The professionals at living off the system need something to fill in all of the time that they have on their hands. Before the government crashed the economy a six pack and some friends were not a bad way to pass the time. Maybe stop by a bar or a club once in a while. Under the "New Normal" even that simple life is regulated out of existence. People will now have more time to contemplate just how bad their life is and how they aren't being properly taken care of. There are a bunch of politicians who will be happy to continue to point out the failings of government when it comes to the poor. Could that alone be enough of a spark during the upcoming hot summer of lock down?

If kids do school from home, we wouldn't need daycare, so that money can be released for other needs.
...

NY Gov. Cuomo almost gleefully described how a single teacher was teaching 50 kids over the internet. many of the children were almost "500 miles away". My daughter teaches in an inner city school. She can be tough. Some of the only social graces these kids get is from the teachers. A day at school can be an escape from a terrible home life. Bricks and mortar schools ain't all bad.

...
Also businesses are closing due to the taxation. Business can get their Paycheck protection money, then close. When this is all over, a new business will be formed...

...

Just last night I commented to my wife that business people like the true slum landlords will get lots of money out the government. The less worldly business people who just run their businesses and pay employees won't know how to work the system. That will result in many good solid businesses going away. The crooks will profit.

Basically the world followed communist China into this virus outbreak solution of economic and citizen lock down. Can this cure ultimately be worse than the disease? Only time will tell.

Yep. I'm a pessimist. That is based upon watching various business and political people in action over many decades now.

I hope all of this turns out better than I envision our future.

vic

 

[elemental]

NY Gov. Cuomo almost gleefully described how a single teacher was teaching 50 kids over the internet. many of the children were almost "500 miles away". My daughter teaches in an inner city school. She can be tough. Some of the only social graces these kids get is from the teachers. A day at school can be an escape from a terrible home life. Bricks and mortar schools ain't all bad.

My son is spending the last quarter of his high school senior year in "online classes" due to COVID-19. The amount of educating going on in these classes is no where near that of a interactive physical classroom. I'm supervising his work to make sure he keeps up with it (he is smart, but stupid at the same time). He is adept at on-line communications; that isn't the barrier. A lack of in-person immediacy and fewer interactive communications is a barrier. If Cuomo thinks that the quality of the education is the same for the one teacher teaching 50 over the Internet as one teacher with 25 or 30 in a classroom, then he is an idiot.

My daughter is spending the third quarter of her sophomore year in college in "online classes" due to COVID-19. She is disappointed in the quality of many of the classes, but not all. Some classes are working out even better as an on-line experience. But most are diminished in value. The worst at the ones were the instructors aren't even recording a lecture, just sending out reading assignments and work to be completed. Could it be done better? - perhaps, to some degree. But at a minimum this would require replacing all of the current instructors with ones who are good at "distance teaching" in addition to teaching in general and understanding their field of expertise. In other words, it adds additional requirements onto the instructors, which diminishes the pool of available talent. And even then the interactive learning between the instructor and classmates would be diminished if not lost altogether.

I completed the final two courses of a masters degree program using on-line classes (instead of the physical courses I had been attending) because of circumstances that moved me 3,000 miles away from the college where I had started the program (i.e., it wasn't due to COVID-19 but other circumstances). One of the courses (an advanced software engineering course) was more or less the same as it would have been in person, but only because the instructor was extraordinarily diligent in recording each lecture, offering on-line office hours, and being very communicative via e-mail, AND the course material was biased towards accessibility in an on-line setting (lots of self-study, lots of project-based assignments). The other course would have been substantially better in person, despite the two instructors bending over backwards to have excellent lecture teleconferences (with recordings in case a lecture was missed), tailor exams to on-line resources, etc., because the full interactive discussion experience was not possible.

Online classes are extremely attractive to administrators who see the student to teacher ratios as limited only by the ability to correct work (and their they dream of all automated assessments), but in many (maybe most) cases they are not as good as in person, interactive learning. In my experience, of course.

 

[elemental]

Basically the world followed communist China into this virus outbreak solution of economic and citizen lock down. Can this cure ultimately be worse than the disease? Only time will tell.

I read an account that stated the present USA "lockdown" response to a major virus epidemic was developed under the Bush administration, but this is the first time it has been executed on this scale. At the time the response approach was developed, the economic impact was a concern. I hope that this full-scale execution of the response is being carefully monitored so that a future response can be more refined with greater attention paid to economic consequences.

No one wants people do die, but for this epidemic people under 40 have less chance of death than from the flu. Protect those who need protecting, let the folks who aren't in (any more than normal) danger keep on keeping on. I'm in the over 40 but under 60 range, with a slightly elevated risk compared to under 40, but I would be more than willing to have things going on as they were in January. I might be more circumspect with some behaviors, but I would like to at least have the choice. In my area the "authorities" haven't gone as nuts as in others, so we have still been able to make use of our local parks and marinas, but seeing what is going on in other places I can sympathize with the protestors.

The seniors who are at risk for COVID-19 should take the precautions they feel are necessary, and should (perhaps) be supported by government services and rules/regulations that make sure they can get the care they need and can participate as much as possible in ordinary activities (up to their accepted level of risk). No one will be forcing them to go out shopping, eat in restaurants, fly on planes, or stay in hotels. Lifting the lockdown is not an all-or-nothing situation with respect to age ranges. (I say this with two sets of parents in their 80s/90s.)

 

[elemental]

For those who wish to read an economic analysis - https://hbr.org/2020/03/understanding-the-economic-shock-of-coronavirus.

There is no magic wand to be waved - there is not enough $$ in the country to make all the states whole in any meaningful way. The path forward is to figure out what CAN be done and to get doing it as deliberately as possible.

 

[sikwan]

I have zero respect for the homeless. Locally, motels have opened, due to the virus, to homeless for free. The local population did not take the offer. Still living on the street.
How did these people get here? Government housing kicks out people who don't get along and follow the rules. So these are people who are so antisocial, they can't even get free housing.

I wish the homeless issue was a simple one. Like you I felt the same way until I starting learning more about the issue and the biggest issue is loss of family which causes financial instability. If I became homeless right now, I'm sure I will feel right at home like all the admins that decide to upgrade a forum.

As for the lockdown, I see some positives...

1. Employees that do not need to be physically at work (lab work, mechanic, etc.) can now work remotely, saving building and travel costs.
2. Besides free daycare (k-12), students can now learn from home. I can take them fishing when the hours permit.
My kids don't learn anything in school anyways and they certainly don't need to deal with the mental issues that some teachers have.

Most people like to hang onto traditions. The lockdown opened up a lot of possibilities.

 

[sikwan]

but in many (maybe most) cases they are not as good as in person, interactive learning. In my experience, of course.

I look at this differently. The biggest factor for success / failure in a child is the parent.

Parents (me included) think that sending their child to a top school will garner a successful child is false. Every parent wants their child to express themselves by running and speaking (before they're 5). When they get into school, they're taught to "sit down" and "shut up." I noticed this in my younger child. I taught him to be open-minded and to express himself. Once he got into school, that all changed. I thought he was getting older, but no. It was the teachers. He was rewarded for being quiet (shutting up).

I had asked every person that was an expert in something where they had learned their skill. It was always outside of school. This is even true for myself. We totally eliminated apprenticeships and replaced them with colleges that forced the next generation into debt.

 

[Aqua Puttana]

...
No one wants people do die, but for this epidemic people under 40 have less chance of death than from the flu. Protect those who need protecting, let the folks who aren't in (any more than normal) danger keep on keeping on. ...

The seniors who are at risk for COVID-19 should take the precautions they feel are necessary, and should (perhaps) be supported by government services and rules/regulations that make sure they can get the care they need and can participate as much as possible in ordinary activities (up to their accepted level of risk). No one will be forcing them to go out shopping, eat in restaurants, fly on planes, or stay in hotels. Lifting the lockdown is not an all-or-nothing situation with respect to age ranges. (I say this with two sets of parents in their 80s/90s.)

There could be other viewpoints than "Stay Home. Save Lives."

To avoid further economic disaster maybe the at risk people need to protect themselves for the good of the nation. The exposure to the virus by those at risk individuals can be personally minimized while the economy is allowed to get back up and running. I'm willing to accept some risk to avoid a financial collapse or social unrest.

As I've said before, NY Gov. Cuomo's messages seems to often hammer death, death, death and open the businesses extremely slowly aka return to public sanity extremely slowly. I get it, but there are other factors too.

When the media reports on states that are opening the focus is always on the deaths. There is never any mention that businesses may actually get back up and running without spiking the virus infections to the point of overwhelming the hospitals. This is all new territory and yet many in the media and some politicians act as though they know exactly what is going to happen. Sacrifices can result in gains, but gains can also require sacrifices.

People will die. It is a novel corona virus with no vaccine.

The younger population and those at less risk have stepped up to the plate and isolated while some of the treatment protocols could get sorted out. Maybe it's time for the older people and others to step up and accept some risk and further inconvenience for the general good.

As a reminder. I don't have the answers. I have many questions.

vic

 

[flman]

The lock down has no advantages, the little guy and his employees are getting totally screwed. In a country where all men are "created equally" , what part is equal about some businesses making windfall profits while at the same time some businesses are running in the red? I have already emailed President Trump about this issue and I hope it is not falling on deaf ears. I also intend to write Ron Paul, the biggest constitutional hawk in DC.

Also I did the math on the 1005 people polled by fake WAPO, and my calculations came up that only 0.00030308231456913% of Americans were polled.

 

[OrioN]

I wish the homeless issue was a simple one. Like you I felt the same way until I starting learning more about the issue and the biggest issue is loss of family which causes financial instability. If I became homeless right now, I'm sure I will feel right at home like all the admins that decide to upgrade a forum.

As for the lockdown, I see some positives...

1. Employees that do not need to be physically at work (lab work, mechanic, etc.) can now work remotely, saving building and travel costs.
2. Besides free daycare (k-12), students can now learn from home. I can take them fishing when the hours permit.
My kids don't learn anything in school anyways and they certainly don't need to deal with the mental issues that some teachers have.

Most people like to hang onto traditions. The lockdown opened up a lot of possibilities.

Some teachers can stop worrying abooot drinking on the job.

 

[flman]

I wish the homeless issue was a simple one. Like you I felt the same way until I starting learning more about the issue and the biggest issue is loss of family which causes financial instability. If I became homeless right now, I'm sure I will feel right at home like all the admins that decide to upgrade a forum.

As for the lockdown, I see some positives...

1. Employees that do not need to be physically at work (lab work, mechanic, etc.) can now work remotely, saving building and travel costs.
2. Besides free daycare (k-12), students can now learn from home. I can take them fishing when the hours permit.
My kids don't learn anything in school anyways and they certainly don't need to deal with the mental issues that some teachers have.

Most people like to hang onto traditions. The lockdown opened up a lot of possibilities.

Most of this post is good but the negatives outweigh the positives, see post 58.