The built in charger for my house batteries in my 2008 Navion does not work very well. Running my generator for hours and hours does not charge the batteries very fast or bring them up to a full charge. What are my options for a replacement charger that will work more efficiently?
Replacement Chargers
- Thread starter allroader
- Start date
Old Crows
Calypso 2014 View Profile
Our '14 View Profile (and I believe many years and models) has a Progressive Dynamics PD-9245. https://www.progressivedyn.com/rv/p...onverters/pd9245c-45-amp-rv-convertercharger/
Look at this site carefully and learn about the Charge Wizard (4 stage charging) Of particular interest are the graphs showing the charge rates AND the time it takes to charge a battery. Recharge Curves & Recharge Profile. Depending on the battery state of charge when you started charging, it may take A LONG TIME to achieve a full charge. It is not a fast process.
14.4-VOLTS (Boost Mode)
Returned the battery to 90% of full charge in approximately 3-hours. The battery reached full charge in approximately 11 hours.
13.6-VOLTS (Normal Mode)
Required 40-hours to return the battery to 90% of full charge and 78-hours to reach full charge.
13.2-VOLTS (Storage Mode)
Required 60-hours to return the battery to 90% of full charge and 100-hours to reach full charge.
https://www.progressivedyn.com/rv/power-converters/pd9200-series-rv-power-converters/#charge-wizard
PD92201 Converter Status Remote Pendant A handy accessory that allows you to check on the charging status and, if you want, change it.
https://www.progressivedyn.com/rv/charge-wizard/pd92201-converter-status-remote-pendant/PD92201
Look at this site carefully and learn about the Charge Wizard (4 stage charging) Of particular interest are the graphs showing the charge rates AND the time it takes to charge a battery. Recharge Curves & Recharge Profile. Depending on the battery state of charge when you started charging, it may take A LONG TIME to achieve a full charge. It is not a fast process.
14.4-VOLTS (Boost Mode)
Returned the battery to 90% of full charge in approximately 3-hours. The battery reached full charge in approximately 11 hours.
13.6-VOLTS (Normal Mode)
Required 40-hours to return the battery to 90% of full charge and 78-hours to reach full charge.
13.2-VOLTS (Storage Mode)
Required 60-hours to return the battery to 90% of full charge and 100-hours to reach full charge.
https://www.progressivedyn.com/rv/power-converters/pd9200-series-rv-power-converters/#charge-wizard
PD92201 Converter Status Remote Pendant A handy accessory that allows you to check on the charging status and, if you want, change it.
https://www.progressivedyn.com/rv/charge-wizard/pd92201-converter-status-remote-pendant/PD92201
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Yeah, batteries are in need of replacement if OEM and maybe in any case depending on health.
The topic of the PD9245 was hashed recently in another post below.
I suggest a trip by url over to battery university to understand a bit more about charging
FLA batteries. Agree with Old Crows, most folks underestimate the time required to actually recharge FLA batteries and get "behind the curve" dry camping. Also nice to know although the PD9245 is rated in literature as a 45amp charger mine would never put out more than 10 amps to the batteries which is a good thing because the cables would not handle 45 amps.
good reading:
https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/charging_the_lead_acid_battery
There are many places to read about charging voltages and amps per stage and the preferable way to do that. PD just amazes me. Not. The graph is just misleading. The way I understand it bulk charge at 13.6VDC and up to 10 amps (at least the two PD9245s I had) gets the charge up to around 90% over some period of hours, then the voltage is "boosted" and amps lowered to finish off the charge because internal resistance of the battery has increased with the bulk charge. After completion of the final charge the converter/charger will drop into maintenance at lower volts and amps to keep the battery topped off. Anyway and however the PD folks want to do it, bulk charging for the first 90% at 14.4 volts and high amps will boil the holy juice out of those batteries. I know, the graph shows it the other way but they also claim the PD9245 is a 45amp charger and it is NOT. It can provide 45amps max, total. The wiring from the batteries to the converter tells me WGO is well aware of that with 8ga wires.
The topic of the PD9245 was hashed recently in another post below.
I suggest a trip by url over to battery university to understand a bit more about charging
FLA batteries. Agree with Old Crows, most folks underestimate the time required to actually recharge FLA batteries and get "behind the curve" dry camping. Also nice to know although the PD9245 is rated in literature as a 45amp charger mine would never put out more than 10 amps to the batteries which is a good thing because the cables would not handle 45 amps.
good reading:
https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/charging_the_lead_acid_battery
There are many places to read about charging voltages and amps per stage and the preferable way to do that. PD just amazes me. Not. The graph is just misleading. The way I understand it bulk charge at 13.6VDC and up to 10 amps (at least the two PD9245s I had) gets the charge up to around 90% over some period of hours, then the voltage is "boosted" and amps lowered to finish off the charge because internal resistance of the battery has increased with the bulk charge. After completion of the final charge the converter/charger will drop into maintenance at lower volts and amps to keep the battery topped off. Anyway and however the PD folks want to do it, bulk charging for the first 90% at 14.4 volts and high amps will boil the holy juice out of those batteries. I know, the graph shows it the other way but they also claim the PD9245 is a 45amp charger and it is NOT. It can provide 45amps max, total. The wiring from the batteries to the converter tells me WGO is well aware of that with 8ga wires.
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Winterbagoal
2018 Winnebago Navion 24V on a 2017 Cab Chassis
It's an excellent, inexpensive, addition to any PI charger that supports it.
I have one, and use it when necessary, and even sometimes when not.
Alphacarina
2006 Itasca Navion 23H
If his 2008 Navion came with a single voltage power converter (like our 2006 Navion did) then the converter is at least part of his problem . . . . maybe most of his problem
Switching to a 3 or 4 stage charger to replace a single voltage converter can speed up battery charge times by a lot, but faster charging requires higher amps and higher amps requires bigger charge cables than the ones that came OEM in the coach. Replacing the converter with a charger without replacing the cables won't accomplish much
I switched to a 55 amp charger to replace my 45 amp converter and with larger cables, I do actually see 45 to 50 amps initially and of course that decreases as the batteries (I have a pair of 6 volt golf cart batteries) begin accepting a charge
When charging any battery bank with any charger from a genset, there is no point in even trying to recharge to 100% because the closer to full batteries get, the less and less charge current they accept. Best to recharge in steps of an hour or so, two or three times per day and only go for a 100% charge when you're plugged in somewhere. Maybe you can replace 35 or 40 amps the first hour, but the next hour will probably only get you half of that and maybe half again the third hour
If you're not in the habit of plugging in every day or two, I would look at investing in solar, because daily genset charging isn't an efficient way to make electricity
Don
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Winterbagoal
2018 Winnebago Navion 24V on a 2017 Cab Chassis
You can't force current into a battery, unless it's in a position or condition, to accept it.
So, I would agree.
My guess is that you have a single stage, float (only) charger that puts out only about 13.6 volts, fine for maintaining but way inadequate to charge batteries in any reasonable time. I went through this early in the game with my then new 2013 Itasca Reyo. I easily solved the problem by replacing my OEM inverter with a 3 stage inverter/charger. Never touched the OEM (Schumacher) charger/converter.
1. What charger/converter do you have? Is it single or muti-stage?
2. Do you have an inverter? If so, what make/model?
1. What charger/converter do you have? Is it single or muti-stage?
2. Do you have an inverter? If so, what make/model?
On those occasions when my batteries get to 50-60% SOC, I run the generator only long enough to restore enough amp-hrs (~30) to get through another day. This usually takes about an hour. To run longer at a single stretch simply wastes fuel as the input amperage declines.
Check out the following links if you really want to be annal about proper charging of your house batteries, especially if you have converted to Trojan 6 volt batteries!
I changed out the single stage charger for a Inteli-Power® 4600 Series. Much faster charging now and it doesn't boil my batteries if I leave it plugged in.
I originally had the OEM Schumacher single-stage converter/charger referred to below. I did something similar but much easier. I simply replaced the OEM Xantrex 1000w inverter with a Xantrex 1000w, 55A inverter/charger. The connections are the same, same modular cable for the new remote readout unit; simple drop-in replacement with slightly larger footprint. I never touched the Schumacher converter/charger. This was in 2013 when I also replaced the OEM house batteries with Lifeline 6v AGMs. This system has been flawless since that time. The Xantrex unit outputs higher voltages during bulk and absorption stages and simply overpowers the Schumacher.
I believe you had posted about this inverter upgrade in another thread on this forum, but I thought you had also used an increased capacity model of 2000 watts. Your primary goal was to reduce generator run time to recharge the batteries, which you said was accomplished to your satisfaction. My desire has been primarily to energize some more convenient outlets other than the ones originally powered by the inverter, which I have figured out how to do, see the the thread “Hardwire a permanent extension cord to the inverter”. I would also like to be able to provide equalization to the batteries, which are Trojan T-106 lead acid. I don’t see where the Xantrex units have this capability, maybe AGM batteries don’t need it. In a more perfect world where money was no object I would use the Progressive Dynamics modified converter-charger upgrade to the Schumacher unit along with a 2000 watt or more inverter. Most likely what will happen is I should install wiring from the inverter to an additional 30 amp outlet in the service bay and plug the shore power cord into that when I want to use other outlets with the inverter. At the moment I am thrilled to know there is a way to energize the other outlets in the rig without any major rewiring.
You are correct that the Xantrex inverter/charger I installed is 3 stage, not 4, i.e. no equalization. How much difference that makes long term, I don 't know. I understand what you are trying to do and why a suicide cord is a bad idea. The solution offered by Kevin.Hutch looks sound and safe.
The main point of my post was that it is possible to overcome the limitations of the Schumacher "float only" charger without modifying it at all. Before I did this, I contacted a Xantrex dealer and asked if it would work. He told me the 3 stage charger would simply overpower the Schumacher. That has proven to be the case. The Schumacher still serves as a converter, i.e. 120v AC to 12v DC.
It is a near travesty that any RV manufacturer would provide only a float charger to a possibly new and unsuspecting RV buyer.
The main point of my post was that it is possible to overcome the limitations of the Schumacher "float only" charger without modifying it at all. Before I did this, I contacted a Xantrex dealer and asked if it would work. He told me the 3 stage charger would simply overpower the Schumacher. That has proven to be the case. The Schumacher still serves as a converter, i.e. 120v AC to 12v DC.
It is a near travesty that any RV manufacturer would provide only a float charger to a possibly new and unsuspecting RV buyer.
Alphacarina
2006 Itasca Navion 23H
I think the RV manufactures were/are very late coming to the understanding that anyone would want to live in their coaches anywhere but in an RV park, plugged into all the 'necessities'
They say my Navion has 34 gallons of fresh water, but they put an asterisk beside that letting you know that 6 of those 34 are in the water heater . . . . but when the 28 runs out, you'll not be using that last 6 very easily, will you? You're not going to be living 'off grid' very long with only 28 gallons of water. What were they thinking? How are you going to fill 33 gallons of black water, and 32 gallons of gray water tankage with *only* 28 gallons of fresh water?? Even assuming you're not going to be drinking or cooking with it, a fresh water tank of at least 50 gallons would seem to have been a minimum requirement
. . . . and, in a rig with a built in genset, supposedly for making electricity, didn't they consider that maybe some of that would need to be used to recharge the batteries so you continue to have 12 volt power? With the single voltage converter, putting any meaningful amount of power into the battery bank would mean running the genset all day (or all night) long. I don't think it's a 'near travesty' . . . . I think it qualifies fully. All in the name of saving $75 or $100 off the price of a $100K motor home
Don
They say my Navion has 34 gallons of fresh water, but they put an asterisk beside that letting you know that 6 of those 34 are in the water heater . . . . but when the 28 runs out, you'll not be using that last 6 very easily, will you? You're not going to be living 'off grid' very long with only 28 gallons of water. What were they thinking? How are you going to fill 33 gallons of black water, and 32 gallons of gray water tankage with *only* 28 gallons of fresh water?? Even assuming you're not going to be drinking or cooking with it, a fresh water tank of at least 50 gallons would seem to have been a minimum requirement
. . . . and, in a rig with a built in genset, supposedly for making electricity, didn't they consider that maybe some of that would need to be used to recharge the batteries so you continue to have 12 volt power? With the single voltage converter, putting any meaningful amount of power into the battery bank would mean running the genset all day (or all night) long. I don't think it's a 'near travesty' . . . . I think it qualifies fully. All in the name of saving $75 or $100 off the price of a $100K motor home
Don
Off the subject, but regarding tanks, my rig has: fresh water 25 gal (plus 6 in HWH), gray 30 gal, black 40 gal. I occasionally (but rarely) camp with electric + water, no sewer. Thus, it is possible to fill the gray tank in 3-4 days. But 40 gal black tank!!! This is nuts. I never even hit the 1/3 level except when filling/cleaning it at the end of the season. Perhaps the thinking is don't dump the black until it is full (more velocity for solids removal) but that is not for me. A little design creativity could have given up some black tank capacity for more gray/freshwater.