Westy house battery/charging problem

Allobet

Member
I have been charging the westy batteries with shore power but they do not appear to charge.
When I turn on the car, I read 14V on the control by the windshield (I assume charging from car engine works)
When I turn car power off, the windshield control goes to Low battery sign (blinking and no voltage reading)
I connected to shore power and without disconnecting anything I measured the voltage across each battery and measured 4V each.
Did I manage to kill the house batteries?
What other troubleshooting should I do?
 

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OldWest

2004 T1N Westfalia
With that low of a voltage, batteries may be permanently dead. Some folks have revived dead batteries using battery desulfating chargers (search web).

Your batteries look like the high quality Sears Platinum AGM batteries (but unlikely for any warranty left). Do NOT replace with regular batteries, only gel or AGM (or newer li ones if a techie and willing to monitor).

https://sprinter-source.com/forum/showthread.php?t=54580&highlight=Battery+charger

https://sprinter-source.com/forum/showthread.php?t=35409&highlight=Battery+charger

A. Does coach battery charger work?

https://sprinter-source.com/forum/showthread.php?t=44597&highlight=Battery+charger

https://sprinter-source.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25330&highlight=Battery+charger

1. Plugged into shorepower
2..Plug icon displayed on windshield central computer console?
a..If not, check that all AC power circuit breakers are on, including the GFI main one.
https://sprinter-source.com/forum/showthread.php?t=34801&highlight=Battery+charger

b. Does microwave work? Do any receptacles work?
c. UNPLUG shorepower. Take metal panel off wall above the fresh water tank lid behind the rear seat. Will see the battery charger. Make sure the cord to the battery charger is firmly inserted. Plug shorepower back in. Any.change to plug icon on central computer console, voltage on batteries, etc.???

Note: Post a photo of the battery charger. Unless you are original owner, could be original or not.

https://sprinter-source.com/forum/showpost.php?p=577029&postcount=21

2. Battery Charger Dead.

There is a fuse (could be more) inside the battery charger. Will have to search for more details on what fuse size and how to replace.

https://sprinter-source.com/forum/showthread.php?t=43686&highlight=Battery+charger+fuse

3. Dead Dead Charger

The original battery charger is no longer available.and in any event, was a dumb one (leaving plugged in could cook batteries). Folks have replaced. Considerations include space available, type of batteries, typical power available (microwave and battery charger share same circuit and circuit breaker trips if both are being used heavily), smart or not multi-stage programmable charging for type of batteries, etc.

https://sprinter-source.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19717&highlight=Battery+charger

https://sprinter-source.com/forum/showthread.php?t=60104&highlight=Battery+charger+fuse

https://sprinter-source.com/forum/showthread.php?t=51756&highlight=Battery+charger

4. Cables

Terminals clean. All cables clean and tightly clamped to terminals.

https://sprinter-source.com/forum/showthread.php?t=58301&highlight=Battery+charger+fuse

5. Other

Where are you generally located (there could be some handy Westy owners nearby)?
Have you downloaded the repair manual CD?
Are you a DIYer or just need general info?
Every year on Labor Day weekend, there is a Westyfest on the east coast. Also, some other get-togethers periodically elsewhere.



Please share whatever you find or do. Thanks.
 
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Allobet

Member
When plugged to shore power I can hear the fridge running, microwave works and can turn on the AC.
I do not see the sign in the display and typically 12V circuit components like bathroom or kitchen lights do not turn on.
I plugged the solar panels and downloaded the Renogy app and it looks like the panels have tens of volts but there is no current going to battery. It also says battery is at 5.6V.
The battery connections looked pretty good to me (see pic I Sent) and connections on the panel next to battery look good too.
I am in New Mexico. Got the van last summer, third owner)

In my last trip few weekends ago, every thing was fine with batteries. I came back and in anticipation for a freeze I winterized and also connected solar panels to test if they would top off batteries but location was suboptimal so connected to shore power but realized that when in shore power, the fridge was running so turned GFCI off and kept charging but batteries didn’t bounce back

I am a DIY (just recently repaired the fridge’s latching mechanism) Would love to meet others and enjoyed reading this site to further understand the ins and outs of “the beast” (as we call it)
 

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OldWest

2004 T1N Westfalia
1. Fridge can be turned off at windshield central computer console by pushing on/off power buttom simultaneously with snowflake button.

2. Air conditioner converters have a 120 v cooling fan. Can turn off by turning off the Air conditioner 120 v circuit breaker (far right one).

3. No power plug icon on central computer console but everything else works on 120v, including microwave, seems to suggest battery charger issue (loose power cord, fuse).

Confirm you have original battery charger (it'd be pretty funny if a prior owner got rid of (by disconnecting) battery charger--I can go months without shorepower as solar panels keep house batteries charged except rainy weather).

Added Note: I see photo of what looks like original battery charger. Double-check right side items are firmly plugged in. White plug looks askew.

Also, what is red cable in left part of photo?


4. NOTE: Some external battery chargers do NOT work if battery voltage is too low.

5. Solar not working is interesting. How is solar wired? Can solar and battery charger work in conjunction, or does solar cutoff battery charger in some manner (switch?).

I'd play with that big red switch with and without shorepower to see what's happening.

I'd also check every cable connection to see if loose (wiggle hard). Both solar and battery charger off may suggest a loose connection.

Also, if you have a amp-hr meter installed, there must be a shunt. So those connections should be checked (follow batteries' positive cable to shunt).

My solar is wired directly to house batteries so there can be multiple charging sources at the same time.

Hopefully, the techies will.chime in.
Keep us posted re what you find re battery charger (behind metal panel above fresh water tank lid) as to connections, etc..
 
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Allobet

Member
The red cable on the left comes from the external connection of the solar pannels and goes to the renogy controller.
Even if charger were fried, batteries should charge with solar pannels but the Renogy app showed 14V on pannels and no current.
Can shore power be plugged at the same times as solar? Could that lead to frying batteries?
 
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OldWest

2004 T1N Westfalia
My solar panels are wired so they operate whenever there is sun. So if alternator is running, the solar panels also work (I can tell because the voltage goes down when driving in shady areas and voltage goes up if sunny--solar panels regulator charging voltage is set higher at 14.4v than alternator). Same with shorepower. (All voltages go up/down by temperature.)

Not a techie to understand why one charging source would not be confused by the voltage from another simultaneous charging source and think batteries were charged. But it seems to work. Unlikely to fry batteries with multiple charging sources, especially solar for only sunny hours. More likely if left on shorepower continuously as dumb charger.

The fact that both solar.and battery charger are not working suggests something common to both (e.g., a connection), while alternator still reads charging voltage.

Also, can't read your red switch in photo but it looks like you have to turn on your solar system for it to charge (connect to batteries). Wonder if this switch also somehow disconnects battery charger too?
 
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Allobet

Member
The red switch needs to be ON for renogy controller to charge batteries.
I have been thinking about what you said about the refrigerator. The control panel on top oh windshield only sends power to refrigerator when it depends on batteries sobre en IRPF yountyrn Of off, Sven connecte to shorepower, t’he refrigerador Will Turn on if allowed by circuit breaker.
Thinking further about it, I turned off the main circuit breaker to stop the fridge rather than just turning off the fridge breaker and that means I probably turned off the battery charger.
Also I suspect the solar panels cannot charge batteries if there isn’t enough juice for the controller to operate.
So i turned on the main breaker, turned off the fridge breaker and plugged back to shore power to see if that charges the batteries a bit or enough so I can connect to solar for trickle charge during storage.
 

OldWest

2004 T1N Westfalia
I didn't quite follow what you're doing.

1. Fridge

Fridge is 12 volt DC only. On/off by windshield central computer display control.

No circuit breaker but there is a 12v fuse behind back seat.

NOTE: If 12 voltage is too low, the fridge will NOT run (compressor won't work).

2. Cooling Fan for Air Conditioner Converters

When plugged into shorepower or generator is running, the cooling fan for converters runs. This is a different cooling fan (120.volt AC).than the one for fridge (12v DC).

The AC circuit breaker far right turns off AC power to converters, and the cooling fan.

The cooling fan is under closet but sounds like under fridge.

3. Sources of.Charging

A. Alternator

Engine running. Alternator charges house and engine batteries.

Westfalia battery charger does nothing--has no power to do anything.

Solar could be charging house batteries?

B. Shorepower or Generator Running

Engine off. Alternator.does nothing.

Westfalia battery charger should be charging (power plug icon on windshield computer display?)

Solar could be charging???

Note: Engine running while plugged into shorepower (or generator running). Alternator could be charging AND Westfalia battery charger could be charging too.

C. Solar

Apparently, must switch solar on.

Does solar switch disconnect other charging sources?
 

OldWest

2004 T1N Westfalia
Thoughts:

Some chargers will NOT charge if battery voltage is too low (indication ot a short inside battery?). I do not know if that is the case with the Westfalia battery charger or the Renorgy solar controller

If you can borrow a 12 volt charged gel or AGM battery and transfer all the cables, you might get better information as to the charging issues.

This might work by putting a new charged battery in paralled using jumper cables, BUT probably better to just transfer all the cables over.

CAUTION: Lots of stuff on Westy is electronic and a hassle to get replacements. So proceed with a lot of caution.

The fact that batteries are so heavily depleted (after how long?) Is a big concern. If the batteries have internal shorts or problems, then don't want to be fooling around with them. Some other Westy owner had leaking batteries--bad news. But no bulging or leaks?

Could go to an auto place and have them test your house batteries.

Or just get new ones. There should be some stickers (or other info?).as to the age of the batteries.

Might be better to wait for some techie folks to chime in with better advice.
 

autostaretx

Erratic Member
If dumb charger was dead, would I see voltage go up when turning the car ON?
Quite possibly ... turning on the car may engage the isolation relay, paralleling the house and starter batteries with the alternator.

So the house now sees the "properly charged" starter battery's voltage.

--dick
 

Allobet

Member
you were right OldWest, the noise was the AC fan and not the fridge.

So what I heard is that if powered to shorepower, even if circuit breaker is off, the batteries should be charging. If they are not then maybe it is an indication they are dead.

I thought that maybe if trying to charge the batteries the circuit breaker had to be on in case the converter was after the breaker and wouldn't get power if breaker was off.

i used the van 2 weeks ago and it was fine. So it hasn't been that long since I have been trying to recharge.

Another thing, we had some freezing temps. I didn't remove the batteries. should I have done that?

I don't know how old the batteries are since I bougt the westy last spring.

If I need to get mew batteries, do you have a recommendation?

Are th westy batteries in parallel or series? What their full charge amount per battery?

You mentioned going to an auto shop to test the batteries, but I can read the coltage from handheld voltmeter. Is there a different diagnostic they can use?
 

OldWest

2004 T1N Westfalia
1. Battery charger needs power. So main circuit breaker and specific microwave-battery charger circuit breaker must be ON.

If microwave display is on, then there is power to that circuit.

If no plug icon on windshield central computer console, then no signal from battery.charger.

Note: The air conditioner circuit breaker can be OFF just to turn off the noise of the cooling fan. Nothing to do with battery charger.

2. Westy coach batteries are usually 12v batteries in parallel (your Sears Platinum AGM are most likely 12v batteries). Saying "most likely" just in case I'm wrong and Sears made a 6v one which looks the same as 12v one.

Hard to see the cables in your photos, but you should be able to see how they're wired in parallel or in series.

Not to discourage a DIYer, but batteries can be dangerous and if don't have the basics, may not be worthwhile to fiddle around with this. I'm not a techie, have to read multiple explanations to see how stuff works, and need step by step paint-by-numbers instructions. Lots of stuff may make armchair sense but different if hands-on.

These batteries are heavy and hard to remove and install (drop a battery and could crack the irreplaceable water tank).

Note that some Westy owners may have two 6v batteries in series.

Don't remember for sure, but the Sears Platinum were around 100 amp-hr rated each. Fully charged, you should see 12.8 volts. These batteries can handle below freezing temperatures.

3. Auto stores can perhaps recharge the batteries (may have to fool chargers with a parallel good battery to recharge), after charged--put a load on them to see if can hold a charge, etc.

As your batteries are so depleted, you may not be able to see if anything works.

4. There was a thread on Group 31 batteries.

https://sprinter-source.com/forum/showthread.php?t=54580&highlight=Group

5. Basics

A. Battery Charger

Try doing the first step of making sure battery charger power cord is plugged into the battery charger and that the white plug is firmly inserted (it looks askew in photo).

Plug into shorepower, confirm circuit breakers are on, confirm microwave display is on, and does plug icon on windshield central computer display light up or not?

Check voltage on batteries to see if charging.

If no plug icon, then perhaps internal fuse inside battery charger.

B. Solar Charger

Figure out if solar charging system is working.

C. Connections

Battery compartment is dusty-dirty. No obvious signs of corrosion on terminals but could be a bad connection.

Fact that neither solar.charging system nor battery charger works to charge seems to suggest some disconnection somewhere.


Keep us posted.
 

Allobet

Member
I purchased these chargers and they should get here on Wednesday and I will try what they suggest:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/css/order...0b1-f29c0f3dd754&pf_rd_r=WFNFDTC23RARZPPXXKPH
https://www.amazon.com/Optima-Digit...ormance+Battery+Charger&qid=1572888007&sr=8-3

I read this about AGM batteries:
https://www.optimabatteries.com/en-us/support/charging/resuscitate-deeply-discharged-battery
"Here's the problem: Most battery chargers have built-in safety features that may prevent chargers from recharging deeply discharged batteries. A traditional battery that's at 10.5 volts or less is seen as defective, having either a short, a bad cell or some other defect. Most analog chargers are binary and are either on or off. If they don’t come on, it may be because the charger thinks the battery is “bad.” Turning on to charge a “bad” battery could create an unsafe scenario. But the fact is that the AGM battery may be just fine; it has simply slipped below the minimum voltage threshold of the charger to turn on, and the charger doesn't know what to do with the battery, so it does nothing."

Question: I assume that to do this charging I need to remove the battery and disconnect the leads. Can I connect the charger with all the existing leads on?
 

OldWest

2004 T1N Westfalia
1. Disconnect

Why take a chance?

While a charger may be able to charge both simultaneously, may be better to charge and test each one separately to see if each one separately can be charged.

Also, why run the risk of killing other electronics, etc.

This is also an opportunity to clean all terminals and clamps. Take a photo overall, and a specific photo of each terminal so you can put every washer, clamp, etc., back exactly as original (cable routing too). I didn't see your battery charger temperature sensor in your photo.

No shorepower, main 12v red handle disconnect off under drainpan, etc. There may be some items which are NOT turned off by the 12v red handle disconnect switch.

To be on safe side, remove batteries. Caution--they are heavy!!! Better to have two people--one to lift and another to guide each battery out. Folks have used various tricks including a longer rope around battery handles, etc.

HINT: Fill fresh water tank to full so water is fully supporting tank walls.

This is also an opportunity for you to check outside of each battery, water tank condition (no cracks, deformation, pass through floor hole to exterior bottom is clear, clean, etc.)

Also, might consider purchasing or borrowing a cheap 12v battery to use for testing purposes while you try to revive Sears Platinums. Can be a very small 12v one as you're not putting heavy loads on it for testing purposes.

A portable jumpstart battery might work as a test battery if recharging one from the cables is okay. Good thing to have.

2. Smart Chargers

Several folks have installed smart chargers.

Washington state folks have a small maintenance charger under the kitchen sink with a switch to choose either the maintenance charger for storage or the Westy charger.

Discus142 has a huge combination Magnum inverter and charger.

Kiltym, Foster and others were exploring various chargers.

OneManVan has a complicated set up to utilize the air conditioner converters for bulk charging, a small 60 amp-hr lithium battery with smart charger.

James Cook Friends Forum folks have changed out their dumb Westfalia charger for smart ones (but European so different voltages).

Searching "battery charger" gives a bunch of threads.

3. DO NOT JUMPSTART SPRINTER ENGINE BATTERY

Dr A (a big contributor to this forum, engineer, tech, etc.) says you should not jumpstart the engine starting battery if dead--jumpstart meaning jumper cables to another vehicle with engine running.

Folks have caused thousands of dollars of damage to their Sprinter electronics by doing this. Presumably bec engine starting battery was defective and got voltage spikes.

Dr A recommends using a replacement battery and then figuring out the problem.

Although he didn't address, a small emergency jumper.battery (not another vehicle alternator) in parallel might be okay.

Several folks here have jumpstarted using another vehicle and no problem. Presumably, battery was fine and only discharged. Same with Westy folks running generator to recharge starting battery.
 

Allobet

Member
So here is the update. I received all the chargers I ordered to test.
Oldwest: you were right! These batteries are heavy!
So I decided to try CPR in place.

I unplugged all sources of power, disconnected 12V circuit.
I took a picture of the connections and disconnected them from one battery
Since I couldn’t lift the battery out of its location, I took a chance and decided to charge it in place.
Weather is cold so tanks are unfortunately empty. More mass would help dissipate heat if battery were to overheat.
I connected the NOCCO GENIUS G7200 and it said the battery was below 25% but it didn’t diagnose a bridged or damaged battery.
I started charging cycle for cold AGM BATTERIES last night.
This morning battery was 25%
I assumed that if more charge wasn’t showing it was because of battery needs to be “repaired”
Set the NOCCO into the repair cycle and 3h later the battery is 50%.
Will keep you posted but this looks good.
Once I finish with this one, I will connect all cables to this one, disconnect second one and try the other one.
 

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OldWest

2004 T1N Westfalia
Great.

1. Safety (goggles, ventilation, etc.). Beware of that crescent wrench--don't want it to become Mr. Sparky.

2. Cables. Make sure the batteries are NOT connected to systems as you are disconnecting cables from one battery at a time.

There are two ways to put batteries in parallel, and in one method, you could still be connected even after disconnecting one battery (remember that the 12v power switch under drainpan does not disconnect all loads).

https://caravanchronicles.com/guides/how-to-connect-two-batteries-in-parallel/

(Perhaps, keep all negative cables disconnected until both batteries are charged.)
 

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