Location and Use of Inverter Powered plugs & TV

gyrogypsy

Member
Just purchased lightly used 2018 Navion 24D. The Winnebago website has useless "wiring diagrams" and boondocking operation is not covered in the owners manual. I have read vague wiring/outlet references on this forum concerning older models, but none seem helpful in my case. I have toggled the "Inverter" switch with no apparent effect.

1. There is a conventional line cord plugged into my Inverter. Where does it go, and what does it do?

2. I'd like to run the television while dry camping. Is this possible with the installed wiring and systems?

3. Which outlets, if any, are powered via the inverter?

Thanks for your help in advance.
 
Last edited:

WinnieView1

Well-known member
In our 2014 24G the 1000 watt inverter powers these outlet locations that we are aware of;
*under the couch bed for the inflatable mattress
*cabinet above the rear bed
*outlet on the inverter in the basement cabinet

Our TVs are factory 12 volt and do not require the inverter.
 

gyrogypsy

Member
Thanks for your input. My TV requires 110V AC, and it just seemed strange that it would not somehow operate from the house battery alone.

Continued investigation revealed that the ground fault circuit interrupter (GFCI) built into my inverter had been tripped. Most CFCI's have a small light that glows when this has occurs. However on this on the light glows when it is working (i.e. NOT tripped). Pressing the RESET button the face of the inverter brought AC power to the outlets for the TV cabinet, next to the couch/Murphy bed, and above the dinette. It also powers the refrigerator that uses a compressor. Apparently Winnebago decided that if they also powered up the kitchen outlets it would only promote owners into plugging in their toaster or margarita blenders! I can understand "no microwave" unless generator running or shore power use.

I am so used to multi-fueled refrigerators I had not considered the issue of "non-working inverter" means "non-working refrigerator". Some of the potential systems-related issues should be better discussed in their manuals.
 

Winterbagoal

2018 Winnebago Navion 24V on a 2017 Cab Chassis
I was under the impression that the compressor fridge uses 12V power directly from the coach batteries. Was yours dead when the inverter's GFCI was tripped? I'll have to test that when I get a chance. :hmmm:
 

Winterbagoal

2018 Winnebago Navion 24V on a 2017 Cab Chassis
In our N24V most of the outlets at the back of the coach are powered by the inverter. As well as at least one power outlet behind the lounge TV, and the outlet on the outside of the bathroom wall down low between it and the sofa/bed, are also 120VAC hot from the inverter. I plug my battery charger into that one, and plug the "cigar" into the always hot 12VDC outlet below the dash pull out cup holder, to charge the chassis battery. I've been using 300W of solar for a couple of months to charge the coach batteries, which power the inverter, which does the rest.
 

billbo

Member
In our 18V24D the OEM batteries were too poor to really run the refrigerator very long at all. When those batteries are low the inverter is essentially worthless. Since you just picked up the lightly used 24D you probably should or might want to investigate the battery situation. I chopped the battery tray to hold two Trojan T-1275s for 300AH. There are a few other tips as well but bottom line if you plan to watch TV in boondock you really need better batteries unless the first owner already tended to that. At some point I will go LiFeP04 but for now the big Trojans are doing the job.

Another hint, buy the remote pendant for the PD9245 converter. It allows you to force the converter into BULK mode when boondocking. That's significant and I learned the hard way that the solar controller will turn on early in the AM. Then you start the genny to charge with the converter and the converter drops right into FLOAT which will not charge your batteries or put back what the refrigerator etc. took out overnight. The solar is putting a charge at low amps on the batteries, the converter sees more than 12.7 and it is done.

If the converter is charging when the solar controller turns on then the controller drops off. It will need a reset after charging with the generator run. I installed a 30amp switchable breaker on each negative lead to the controller. Turn them off to converter charge, then when done, turn them back on and the solar will finish the job during the day.

The OEM design for the solar is not really up to the task. I think the output of the PWM solar controller runs about 25ft over 8 gauge copper. Not a good thing because you get far too much voltage drop at low voltage like 13.2. At least .3 to .5 voltage drop depending on charge amps and state. You need the voltage to push the amps back into the batteries. One fix is to move the controller near the batteries, allows the feed voltage of 18vdc over the 25ft run, helpful but still significant voltage drop. Another fix is to pull at least 6 ga or better yet 4 ga wire - a real pain. The best fix would be 24volt panels on the roof and a MPPT controller mounted up front near the batteries. That would allow the 25 ft existing run to be at 36VDC which makes the voltage drop negligible. The problem is finding 24volt rigid panels to fit on the little roof.

The initial impulse is to "add another solar panel" on the roof or even the MPPT controller. You will hardly get real payback unless you address the voltage drop issue. In some charge states and times of the day the third panel of like kind should actually increase the voltage drop significantly to almost negate the added benefit. You must have the potential difference - volts - to push the charge amps into the batteries.

I'm offering this because you mentioned "dry camping". Of course you have a generator, I got the diesel 3.2 and it has been good for the first 250hours. Dry camping with the compressor refrigerator presents an entirely new set of challenges. Adequate battery, working solar and probably a whole lot less TV watching. If you can drop the cash LiFeP04 would really help the situation if you want to dry camp without a whole lot of generator run time.

The little inverter will run the TV and a few chargers but it is pretty small. It is PSW.
 
Last edited:

Winterbagoal

2018 Winnebago Navion 24V on a 2017 Cab Chassis
I let our 12V compressor fridge run 7X24 hours a day, all last week off only the coach batteries, with only my 300W of solar charging them, no generator or shore, and it stabilized after a few hours on day one at perfect temps in the freezer and the refrigerator. I'm still using the factory Napa 8240 wet cells and my Navion isn't parked in the shade, and there were a couple of overcast days. I think the extra 100W panel I added last year makes all the difference.
YMMV.
 

billbo

Member
Mike,

Perhaps you got the one in a million refrigerator but I did not. Those OEM batteries have about 75AH each so your preferred AH usage is right at that. I did that test with the OEM batteries as well, three nights. The fourth day the batteries were truly toast. That's if you do nothing else at all in the coach. OK. I have posted the graphs of the refrigerator load draw. about 3 amps at a 70% duty cycle which varies slightly with weather, temps etc.

Now if you have three panels at 6 amps in parallel you should get max amps of say 18 at perfect solar conditions. In a normal state the solar controller is charging around 13.2 volts. At a distance of 25ft the voltage drop is .57volts at the end of the run which means you are putting 12.63 volts potential to the batteries. You can check that with one of the voltage drop calculators online or even a mobile app.

Like I said, you got a one in a million refrigerator. Why? You do not get 12 hours of that solar per day. You will never get to absorption stage for the batteries. Around here there is great solar from 10 AM to 4 PM this time of year with normal clouds etc. If your refrigerator has to run at least 16 hours with no charge source applied it is a stretch. Even the funky Lichtsinn video the batteries were dead on the morning of the fourth day. How many times a day do you open the fridge door?

You have to add in the parasitic draws as well so put another .5 AH and the fridge will take 3.2amps as outside temps rise to 80*F. It sounds like it will work but even Lichtsinn, trying to sell the things, got 3 days and nights - but I'm guessing they just tossed the batteries at the end of that video, just like I did. Then, when you start living in the rig, everything goes out the door and turns into amp hours used. Don't think about turning on the inverter. Turn on the LP switch only when using hot water. Don't use the inside lights in bright mode, only dim. Use the camp toilet if you can and shower there as well, water pump has a good draw. Leave the bed out all the time - that motor is a hard hit for amps.

My Fluke 375 FC shows the little refrigerator in my rig actually performs and operates better than the Norcold stated amperage draw when the graphs are checked. The cycle time is normal for a 12VDC compressor fridge.

Not arguing with you but with 300AH of good battery, 150 AH usable we can make the thing run. Solar I discount although it has harvested over 72 AH parked in full sun with those OEM flexi panels. The down side is the charge is not being effective as it should be. Now that I know how to manage the converter and solar issues in operation I can boondock as long as I want but folks will hear the generator. When I get the solar rebuilt as noted it will be a great benefit but will not be a solution for living in the rig, just a generator run time help.

We just got a new Suby Outback for DW so my check book frowns when I mention LiFeP04 but I really want them to cut down genny run time in camp. They recharge really fast compared to FLA. I would expect with a good solar install and LiFeP04 I would state with a smile that I can boondock easily and 24x7 would indeed no longer be a challenge.

The expected longest life of the flexi panels is 5 years, the mfg said they normally will turn opaque in about two years and drop off. One of mine was replaced early in ownership under warranty.
 
Last edited:

billbo

Member
On a normal day our AH usage overnight is just over 100. During the day between generator runs the solar will usually operate the fridge and other light use. I also use my CPAP at night as well for about 6 - 7 hours and in planning the future solar install and LiFeP04 I will estimate 125AH used before and after solar hours. A good solar install will provide that on good solar days, otherwise the genny run time will be much shorter and camp a whole lot quieter with lithium.

During solar hours you subtract the usage from amps available and I would think most folks might average 5 amps/hour or more during those hours, so subtract that from solar amps being harvested to get what's left over to stuff back into the batteries to replace what you used the night before. If you don't get 100% replacement during the day you begin a very fast downward spiral in 3 days and nights, regardless of battery capacity.
 
Last edited:

Winterbagoal

2018 Winnebago Navion 24V on a 2017 Cab Chassis
bill,
Maybe you just were unlucky and got a one in a million fridge/battery combo that doesn't meet your expectations? I researched many of our coach's pros and cons before we bought, and this fridge/battery/solar issue was mentioned here and there, and I did watch the Lichtsinn videos. I fully expected it to be less than perfect, but after we took it out on the road and used it, I was pleasantly surprised.
Our fridge works fine, door opened when necessary during the day for normal usage and to verify temperature. Sometimes the compressor was running when I checked it, and sometimes not. Sounds like maybe you just got a lemon, as I don't see a lot of people complaining about their factory coach battery usage as related to fridge use. Yes, some folks have opted to increase their capacity, but that's normal for many RVers. Some just like to tinker, and some just like to complain. Some like to have that extra "safety net" of battery power available. I'm planning to upgrade to lithium when the factory jars finally start to show signs of consistent weakness, but until then, I think they'll do for our purposes.
Just to clarify, during my week long adventure running the fridge 7X24, my inverter was always "on", I had the water pump set to "on" but no water usage meant no activity, the Maxx Air fan was running almost all day long on the "auto" setting during the hotter temps but would eventually shut off overnight, the propane valve was "closed/off" as it wasn't required when parked in the driveway, and my coach to chassis battery charger was plugged into an outlet with inverter power, and available to charge the chassis battery if required, but typically it only draws power for a few minutes when first plugged in to top up the chassis battery. After that I don't usually see it running. On the best sun days, I was pulling over 15A from the 3 panels when the overall power consumption load was at it's highest during the daylight hours. As stated, I did open the doors a few times a day to check temps.
That's about all I have to say on this topic. Again, YMMV.
 

billbo

Member
Well, my fridge was replaced early in ownership as well, along with many others and those issues are rampant over the internet on several forums. My guess is there was never a single issue with the refrigerator, only the electrical supply side. When the thing has power it runs just fine.

Like I said, no arguing here either. If you are happy so am I but most everyone I have dealt with in forums and on the phone has had issues providing adequate power to keep the thing running. I have never seen anyone express run times like you with the OEM batteries, especially with other loads.

WGO failed to properly address the issue, claiming with many folks it was the thermostat, replacing many many thermostats, then claiming it was a fuse holder on top of the fridge. It probably was simply the power supply for most owners. It is a very real challenge. The power used with this fridge and normal camping is about the same as in a 40ft long class A DP with residential but you have a small roof etc, limited weight capacity and space for a big battery bank which translates to lithium.

Those forum posts are easy to find on iRV2 and the WGO owners and even the Yahoo groups if you can read those. I personally would rather sit in the RV and tinker than try to follow the Yahoo groups now.

It is not about tinkering but trying to find the issues and make the thing work. In any case I like the scientific approach - the Fluke does not lie if you know how to use it. A good battery monitor will show you as well exactly what is going out and going back into your little OEM batteries. My first recommendation to anyone with one of these rigs who is contemplating boondock camping is to install a good battery monitor first, Victron 712 or Trimetric form Bogart. Set it up, use it. No more guess work. If you have a good test piece like the Fluke it will also help you chase it down.

It is not about my satisfaction for my use or being disgruntled at all. It is about helping others who are being told a stupid thermostat or fuse holder is the issue - it is not. The issue is providing stable power to the fridge. If you never want to dry camp/boondock the little OEM batteries and a power pole work fine, there are no issues at all.

There are three versions known of the little fridge in the wild. The version I have is the replacement unit Norcold gave me after four months. It has performed well since installed and with the Trojan batteries. Dry camp was not successful until I made the modifications noted to recharge the batteries during the day.

New owners are still posting for help to make the refrigerator operate. The recommendations I give are based on having a fully functional, properly operating DE0061. It does appear some early units had bad thermostats and one series may have had a bad fuse holder. My replacement unit has neither of those issues and it does operate better than the Norcold specification sheet. Temperatures between the freezer and bottom section are moderated with an air dam I made up so the freezer can operate between 4*F - 8*F and the bottom stay around 36-38*F. Without that air dam things in the bottom would freeze solid overnight.

What would be interesting is to graph your refrigerator runs and compare them to mine and to check the serial numbers of the DE0061 in your rig. We know of three series of serial number runs, there may be others as well. One thing we know is the thermostat and fuse holder issues were mediated sometime in the 2019 model year runs but it is hard to know what unit WGO put in each rig and exactly when that happened on the line.

The reason I would like to graph your refrigerator run is to compare it to mine - not to dispute you or cause some irritation to another forum poster. I'm just curious and wondering if they have a model series which really performs better than the one in my rig. It is also possible they installed 6 or 4ga wire in some runs from the solar controller - who knows. That's easy to check by pulling the solar controller and looking at the stamp on the output side wires or the POS feed goes under the PS seat to a jumpered circuit breaker labelled "solar".
 
Last edited:

Winterbagoal

2018 Winnebago Navion 24V on a 2017 Cab Chassis
Mine is a DC0061R fridge. Based on the unit id label inside the door. I don't know the serial number. Does that make this an apples and oranges discussion? If so in your opinion, then sorry for the confusion. I assumed all 2018 Views/Navions were similarly equipped, being built in the same shop. I have/had heard of some early/late build variations/changes in installed hardware, but that's supposed to be normal for the industry.
 

billbo

Member
Mike,

It is normal for the industry to change things as they learn and move along in each model year. That really makes chasing issues like I had tedious.

So we have different models, mine is a DE0061. My unit is made to operate on AC or DC however WGO only connects the 12VDC side. Kind of like we knew three models or variants but no clue when they hit the line.

On the WGO owners forum a poster just installed a Zamp 170 watt panel to compliment his 2 flexis and two Trojans T-125s. I believe he has operated his fridge 7 days now with the vent fan on during the day and overhead lights a few hours at night, no inverter time, no charging at all except the solar. He and I have the same model but unless we did a test with the Fluke no way to know if they are behaving the same. The graph of the current draw is a good and accurate depiction of the cycles in amps and duration. As he has time he plans to improve the output wires by adding a parallel run of 8ga which is almost as good as having 4 ga wire.

I'm still trying to find 24 volt panels that will fit on the View roof and it is beginning to look like I might have to do the 12 volt rigid as well just for roof size, then improve the cable run on that 25 ft output.
 

Geriakt

2017 View 24J
If your 1000 watt inverter does not power your 110 volt main cabin tv, you have a problem. The inverter has a plug connected to it for the tv.
 

gyrogypsy

Member
Bilbo - It appears you have looked intelligently into many things I am about to. It also explains the difference between the "battery" and "solar" display panels' voltage measurements. You also explained why the solar controller never fully charged the battery.

My wonder-wife and I are also on CPAPs. Until just now, we have done years of boondock-style camping in our 4WD pop-up, and "just plane camping" in our Cessna 185 bushplane. We have been using a Goal Zero Yeti 400 portable power station with a 100W foldable solar panel, using the 12VDC output, not the built-in 120VAC inverter to power both our CPAPs w/out humidifiers. It will run both for four days from a single full charge. The Yeti 400 has a wonderful LCD display of power in/out, estimated remaining capacity, etc. I mention this as we just returned from our inaugural two night camping trip/shake-down. The coach battery/inverter was too anemic to run the refrigerator and CPAPs, and thankfully we brought the Yeti to complete the evening. I am considering the addition of 12VDC cigar lighter plugs near where the inverter powered bedroom outlets are. Not sure about the difficulty in locating coach 12VDC source wiring, r&r the paneling, etc. Ditto for pulling larger DC wiring. I am a retired electronic engineer, ham radio operator, and FAA A&P mechanic, so I feel pretty comfortable in doing this as long as things can be disassembled non-destructively.

I have a battery condition tester, and will check out the current coach batteries. I will consider your suggested replacement should they warrant replacement. I know there are a lot of articles about creating one's own Lithium battery pack, so that may be a lower cost route. One of the OEM solar cells was already removed from my used Navion, so a revamp of that system is also warranted. I saw the Lichtsinn video and was not much impressed, but this is my first "full-size" RV. Upgraded solar sounds like a great winter project in my heated hangar!

A final comment - who was the wunder-kid that designed the Jensen entertainment center user i/f? Seems like a lot of gyrations of the single big spin-push knob to get anything done. I had to experiment to find the TV audio setup required to drive the system. Still learning the in-dash system too. Full glass airplane cockpits are easier!
 

billbo

Member
Yeah, retired electrical engineer here as well although I wound up being a network engineer the last 15 years I worked.

My best friend in all the troubleshooting was my Fluke clamp meter with bluetooth, let me graph the compressor fridge during operation and monitor the charging etc.

One of my OEM Zamp flexi panels died in the early months of ownership, replaced in kind - warranty. They have a limited life span so watch them for output. I definitely recommend rigid panels for replacement, still hoping to find 24 volt panels that will fit and use a MPPT controller.

The voltage drop is a killer for charging but once you know that the fix is not really too bad. I'm waiting until Fall and slightly cooler weather to do the work, just too hot for me to stay outside right now. Humidity is up now also.

My CPAP is an AirSense 10, great little unit, low amperage draw but - no longer runs on 12VDC. Needs a transformer to change voltage so I get a current "waste" either way I run it, the little inverter is probably a little more idle current.

The batteries I used are Trojan T-1275 for 300AH total. If you get the solar fixed, wiring runs, all that done T-145 in series will be good enough probably but either weighs in really heavy on the OCCC. Mine are about 85lbs each. LiFeP04 becomes really attractive and desirable because they are lighter and charge much faster - all at a price. Check out the battery tray and measure - I had to take the Sawzall to mine to get the big batteries installed. With two CPAP machines and the 12VDC compressor fridge it sounds like a great time to think about Battle Born lithium batteries.

Yes, the Jensen actually made me pull out the manual to get the TV sound redirected. ON the dash NAVI you will need to update the software from time to time with the DOCK software on a PC or Apple using the SD card. It gets cranky if you don't do the updates.
 

Top Bottom