New 647 engine

Midwestdrifter

Engineer In Residence
If the feds catch wind of a grey market non compliant engine importer, they may track down the buyers. When this previously happened with Mini Coopers, the end buyers had to remedy the issue and pay for an inspection, or have their vehicle crushed.
 

Csansom001

2003 High Top 158in (612.981)
It seems like these guys have been around for a while. Just to make sure before I call them, the EGR not being on there 100% makes it non compliant?


Thanks

If the feds catch wind of a grey market non compliant engine importer, they may track down the buyers. When this previously happened with Mini Coopers, the end buyers had to remedy the issue and pay for an inspection, or have their vehicle crushed.
 

vanski

'05 Snow Camper, '17 170 4x4, Adventure Vissionary
I’ve talked with these guys a few times. They seem legit and I would think they have too much to lose by knowingly importing a non emissions compliant 612 motor. Perhaps the supplier to MM simply fulfilled the order and MM didn’t know (not that ignorance counts in a court of law) they were importing an illegal motor.

But... if they have stated it’s coming with its own ecm then I’d hope they would find that suspicious..
 

vanski

'05 Snow Camper, '17 170 4x4, Adventure Vissionary
It seems like these guys have been around for a while. Just to make sure before I call them, the EGR not being on there 100% makes it non compliant?
yes! The ecm also is illegal. It won’t be mapped to your vin so in a state requiring smog testing wouldn’t even be able to test it.

Since there are no (is this really true?) smog laws in Georgia, some might argue this is like marijuana in states where it’s legal, but of course it’s not legal at the federal level.... lots of pot grown ‘legally’, at the state level, in CA, NV, CO, etc.
 
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Midwestdrifter

Engineer In Residence
The exporter has no legal requirements as far as the EPA is concerned. The engine is just considered parts if its under a certain displacement (light vs heavy duty.

Its on the installer to comply with the clean air act and relevant EPA regs. If the engine was not originally installed in that vehicle as certified, or its been modified to remove compliance, its illegal to install.

A skilled tuner could possibly change the VIN in the ECM, but I doubt that's the case here.

Typically most low volume gray market importers get away without attracting attention. An extreme example was folks who imported complete mini coopers as "used auto parts". Then cut the vin off a newer USA sold model, and grafted it on to the import. Change the VIN in the ECU (if applicable), and drive it. Eventually they got shut down, and several thousand owners got nastigrams in the mail on EPA and Customs letterhead.

You can read a bit more over here.


EPA regulates the entire vehicle, not individual parts, for cars, light trucks, medium duty passenger vehicles (MDPVs), chassis-certified HDVs, and motorcycles. If an engine is not installed, and is to be used in a car, motorcycle, or light truck, it may be imported as an automotive part. Anyone may import a non-chassis-mounted light-duty engine for use in a motor vehicle which is currently covered by an EPA certificate or will be covered by an EPA certificate prior to introduction into commerce. No approval or Customs bond is required by EPA. However, importers should be aware that several engine uses are violations of the Clean Air Act:
● Mounting an engine to a chassis to "manufacture" a vehicle without proper certification of conformity from EPA;
● Mounting a non-identical engine to a certified vehicle; and
● Importing an engine for use in an engine-certified heavy-duty vehicle or heavy-duty truck without a proper label indicating that it is covered under a certificate of conformity, or was built prior to 1970, or is otherwise excluded or exempted.
Edited to clarify the difference between parts and complete engines as the EPA defines them.
 
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99sport

Active member
I think I have about six thousand miles on the engine now. I am currently in Montana. I just drove up through Utah on Highway 89 and then up through Wyoming and the Tetons and Yellowstone and then the Beartooth Highway. I have been blown away with the engine and transmission. It has worked flawlessly. Passing any other vehicle at 8000 or 10000 ft on a mountain pass on a 2 lane highway is trivial.

That said, I agree with the other posters about emissions issues. Mine was a complete engine with all US market emissions components including the EGR. Metric Motors sells both long blocks and complete engines. For the long blocks, you are supposed to move over your emissions components. My first reaction was that they expected you to swap over your intake manifold and EGR and whatever else is needed on your 612 to get the emissions components swapped over. It sounds like, as everyone has said, they sold you a euro or Australian version, as that is what their supplier was able to obtain, but I would expect they would supply some caveat that even though yours came with an ECM you should use your original ECM and EGR, etc. Whether you actually do so is up to you and whether you think you can skirt the emissions laws in your situation. Resale value will certainly be affected if you don't swap over the emissions parts, as the van will not be able to to be registered in many states.

Although most of the vocal forum members are firm believers in maintaining emissions compliance (as it is, after all, a violation of federal law, no matter what state you live in, to do otherwise), there are a couple of forum members that would love to pull the tune out of that Euro ECM now that gde is shut down.

Edit: I'd also suggest you NOT post the name of the shop doing the install, as they are the ones breaking the law. I am certain there are forum members that would immediately report the shop to the relevant Washington state authorities. Good luck and I hope your new engine works out for you - mine has been fantastic so far.

2nd edit: I bought a used JDM engine about 10 years ago from one of the many importers and they explicitly stated everything except the long block had to be swapped from the old engine (exhaust, intake manifolds, etc,etc). Inspecting the engine, I found the only actual difference was one hole on the intake, and so I figured it was easier to just add the hole to the new intake. However, my factory Honda engine is still going with over 350,000 miles and the JDM engine is still under my workbench in the garage. The point being, as Midwest drifter pointed out, the installer, not the importer is responsible for emissions compliance.
 
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Csansom001

2003 High Top 158in (612.981)
Appreciate your reply 99!

I had a thought that I messaged Midwest about but figured it may be helpful to forum as a whole so figured I’d make it public here;

Based on my thread reading and limited knowledge (by no means a mechanic), is the only difference between my engine pictures below and a compliant one the intake manifold and EGR? Specifically, if there is no EGR on European ones, is there something else that makes the engine different ASIDE from the intake manifold and EGR?

I was thinking that because it is brand new, maybe it would be worth just transferring my old intake manifold and EGR and calling it a day?

A wiring harness came with the engine but apparently the connections are different so the guys installing are using my old wiring harness. Should have an update tomorrow. I by no means am trying to skate emissions - I just want a working van.

I think I have about six thousand miles on the engine now. I am currently in Montana. I just drove up through Utah on Highway 89 and then up through Wyoming and the Tetons and Yellowstone and then the Beartooth Highway. I have been blown away with the engine and transmission. It has worked flawlessly. Passing any other vehicle at 8000 or 10000 ft on a mountain pass on a 2 lane highway is trivial.

That said, I agree with the other posters about emissions issues. Mine was a complete engine with all US market emissions components including the EGR. Metric Motors sells both long blocks and complete engines. For the long blocks, you are supposed to move over your emissions components. My first reaction was that they expected you to swap over your intake manifold and EGR and whatever else is needed on your 612 to get the emissions components swapped over. It sounds like, as everyone has said, they sold you a euro or Australian version, as that is what their supplier was able to obtain, but I would expect they would supply some caveat that even though yours came with an ECM you should use your original ECM and EGR, etc. Whether you actually do so is up to you and whether you think you can skirt the emissions laws in your situation. Resale value will certainly be affected if you don't swap over the emissions parts, as the van will not be able to to be registered in many states.

Although most of the vocal forum members are firm believers in maintaining emissions compliance (as it is, after all, a violation of federal law, no matter what state you live in, to do otherwise), there are a couple of forum members that would love to pull the tune out of that Euro ECM now that gde is shut down.

Edit: I'd also suggest you NOT post the name of the shop doing the install, as they are the ones breaking the law. I am certain there are forum members that would immediately report the shop to the relevant Washington state authorities. Good luck and I hope your new engine works out for you - mine has been fantastic so far.

2nd edit: I bought a used JDM engine about 10 years ago from one of the many importers and they explicitly stated everything except the long block had to be swapped from the old engine (exhaust, intake manifolds, etc,etc). Inspecting the engine, I found the only actual difference was one hole on the intake, and so I figured it was easier to just add the hole to the new intake. However, my factory Honda engine is still going with over 350,000 miles and the JDM engine is still under my workbench in the garage. The point being, as Midwest drifter pointed out, the installer, not the importer is responsible for emissions compliance.
 

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99sport

Active member
99 sport,
How were the injectors handled on the new engine?

Were they all replaced with rebuilts?

Just assumed the glow plugs are new?

That engine is the 612 beauty queen, gotta love the intake manifold.

bill in tomahawk
Mine came with brand new (bosch) injectors, new glow plugs, new high pressure fuel pump, new accessory drive and water pump, new manifolds with turbo and EGR and new harness (correct for my US OBD II ECM)
 

Nautamaran

2004 140” HRC 2500 (Crewed)
Appreciate your reply 99!

I had a thought that I messaged Midwest about but figured it may be helpful to forum as a whole so figured I’d make it public here;

Based on my thread reading and limited knowledge (by no means a mechanic), is the only difference between my engine pictures below and a compliant one the intake manifold and EGR? Specifically, if there is no EGR on European ones, is there something else that makes the engine different ASIDE from the intake manifold and EGR?

I was thinking that because it is brand new, maybe it would be worth just transferring my old intake manifold and EGR and calling it a day?

A wiring harness came with the engine but apparently the connections are different so the guys installing are using my old wiring harness. Should have an update tomorrow. I by no means am trying to skate emissions - I just want a working van.
The emissions are largely a function of ECM programming and devices fitted. I expect the long block and fuel system is identical and fitting your old manifold and ECM will achieve the same performance and emissions.

Achieving an “identical engine“ is a pretty high bar. Even fitting the om647 intake for better EGR life and glow plug access is a violation...

In your place I would, at a minimum, have the shop move the intake from your old engine, use you old ECM (with its certified factory tune) and make sure the EGR is operative. This will insulate you from a casual inspection by a future mechanic. This might even make the engine “identical”? I don’t know.

Good luck,

-dave
 

Midwestdrifter

Engineer In Residence
Identical basically means same equipment fitted as verified by MFG part number. So if the parts catalog says the only difference is the manifold and EGR, then swapping those means its identical. Any EPA inspector would be satisfied with that.
 

Csansom001

2003 High Top 158in (612.981)
Update;

I think there was miscommunication on my part and shop haha. I went in to suggest transferring over the intake manifold and EGR to ensure it’s compliant and they had already done the transfer and were like “yeah dude no way were we leaving that other manifold one on.”

I ordered a long block given they did not have a complete 612.981 available. Turns out they did, it was just European style. So outside of the intake manifold and EGR valve, the engine included new injector nozzles, turbo, and high pressure pump. The engine also came with a wiring harness, not an ECM (misspoke earlier due to my lack of knowledge). The wiring harness was for a German fitment. So basically - use old wiring harness and transfer over intake and EGR.

Interestingly, the guys found a loose bolt from the transmission install floating around in the flex plate area. You can see it shredded that thing up. This is almost exactly where the bottom end noise was coming from. So at the end of the day, maybe I didn’t need a new engine, just a new flex plate? Such is life. Previous engine had 342k miles.

Thanks for the replies - I’ll update how it’s driving in a few weeks!
 

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Cheyenne

UK 2004 T1N 313CDi
Why had the old flex plate been welded?

Looks like someone working on it previously new it was broken and tried to bodge a repair?

Would be interesting to know who or when?

Keith.
 

Cheyenne

UK 2004 T1N 313CDi
Interestingly, the guys found a loose bolt from the transmission install floating around in the flex plate area. You can see it shredded that thing up. This is almost exactly where the bottom end noise was coming from. So at the end of the day, maybe I didn’t need a new engine, just a new flex plate? Such is life. Previous engine had 342k miles.
So why did the repair shop not halt work at that point and call you?

IMO Any respectable shop should have done just that and not pressed on blindly!

Keith.
 

lindenengineering

Well-known member
Now Keith you see what we have to deal with in the USA :devilish: as professional shop .
Only the other day I brought in a dead Sprinter which was locked up and had a new engine installed.
Having left the torque converter bolts out during the DIY install it came apart after 9 miles of use.
Blaming the engine builder he sold it to us.
Talk about "Hammer & French letter" repairs !!!:giggle:
Now you see one in all its glory.:D
Dennis
 

Csansom001

2003 High Top 158in (612.981)
They gave me a heads up. But at that point and believe me, a long ass story leading up to that point, I wanted the new engine and peace of mind given I live/travel and work remotely from my van. I was losing roughly a quart of oil every 2k miles on old engine and couldn’t figure out why - multiple phone calls to the Doktor and ultimately figured it was going internal.

As for the welding - no idea.

So why did the repair shop not halt work at that point and call you?

IMO Any respectable shop should have done just that and not pressed on blindly!

Keith.
 

tom2turbo

Member
Based on my thread reading and limited knowledge (by no means a mechanic), is the only difference between my engine pictures below and a compliant one the intake manifold and EGR? Specifically, if there is no EGR on European ones, is there something else that makes the engine different ASIDE from the intake manifold and EGR?
Love those smooth intake runners.
 

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