Drove the gas sprinter

65C02

404
Was his I4/7spd a 144 or 170 wheelbase? And did he calculate by driving a full tank at high way speeds 70-75 with the cruise on. That is really truly the only way to get accurate MPG results.

Apples to apples 144 - but your Highway apples would be different from his day to day mixed loaded work van usage.
 

Coast2Coast

2006 158 Cargo
I'm more of a real estate guy but I see a lot of indications that van conversions might be on the verge of their own housing bubble.

With that in mind, I'd offer the same advice as I would to a homebuyer. Get what you'll enjoy and can afford even in the worst-case scenario. Go with the idea that the additions/modifications that you'll appreciate will also be appreciated by the next buyer/owner and don't make compromises trying to impress that buyer who might not even exist in five years.

(A good friend says that the mistake most real estate investors make is that they spend all their time worrying about how they're going to handle the best-case scenario.)

You can still be excited and optimistic, but the very best strategy is one where you win either way, personally deriving heaps of value from the van while you're enjoying it and then being pleasantly surprised by getting the unexpected icing on the cake of a great resale price.

That said, we've had a 2006 3500 RV for ten years and I would love to have a gas-powered Sprinter if I could. The downside to gas is if you put on 50,000 miles a year you won't have as much engine-life left at then end of five years. And, there's no telling where the anti-diesel movement is headed. You can't even drive diesel sedans in some cities in Germany any more, and Germany is a country where auto enthusiasts love their big diesel engines.
I know what you mean, but it might be the other way around if Housing prices keep going up people will be moving into their Sprinters. I just spent 20 nights straight in the back of mine to get a taste of what it would be like. I had the California weather on my side. :smirk:

As for the diesel movement: Yes less and less Diesels in cars, but they arn't going anywhere for the pick up truck cargo van application. You would first have to take all the big rigs off the highway which seems next to impossible given they keep the economy going.
 
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Coast2Coast

2006 158 Cargo
Apples to apples 144 - but your Highway apples would be different from his day to day mixed loaded work van usage.
We got any highway roadside peaches yet.. :lol: So basically the 4 cylinder isn't that great in town but really excels on the highway like the T1N from my understanding. I'm light empty in the city and loaded on the highway. No not that kind of loaded. :doh:
 
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I estimate [M274] motor will average 18-19mpg in hilly terrain locations and 19 mpg flat terrain, up to 20mpg lower speeds up to 60mph. There will be someone that will get 21mpg, but I think most folks will average 18-19.
Remember this is on 87 octane ...
...which is less expensive than diesel.
 

Davydd

Well-known member
Not always less expensive. Last fall 87 octane gasoline and #2 diesel were the same price in Wisconsin. Diesel has what, 25% more energy? When I first drove a diesel Class B in 2006 diesel was alway less than gasoline.

I miss my 400-500 miles range (once 508 Miles) of my first T1N Class B RV. It gave one more security in crossing long expanses of desert. I’ve never gone over 350 miles with my NC3Vs.
 
Yes, diesels typically have longer range.

Years ago, I owned a 4x4 Suburban with the 6.2-liter V8 Detroit Diesel engine. The Sub went across the scales at 7,250 pounds, and it was the most gutless vehicle I've ever owned.

But even with 4.11 gears and lockers in both ends, 6" lift, 35x12.50R15" mud tires on custom steel wheels (including two full-sized spares in the back), 9,000-pound Warn winch with front and rear mounts, heavy fabricated steel bumpers, tool box, spare parts, spare fluids, shovel, axe, recovery equipment, etc., it got 20+ mpg on the highway- it's stock 40-gallon fuel tank gave it an honest 800-mile range.

We filled up in Vancouver Washington, and drove it all the way to Laguna Seca in Monterey California without refueling, towing a motorcycle trailer, with two motorcycles, all of our riding gear, all of our pit equipment, and all of our camping gear inside.
 

Coast2Coast

2006 158 Cargo
Not always less expensive. Last fall 87 octane gasoline and #2 diesel were the same price in Wisconsin. Diesel has what, 25% more energy? When I first drove a diesel Class B in 2006 diesel was alway less than gasoline.

I miss my 400-500 miles range (once 508 Miles) of my first T1N Class B RV. It gave one more security in crossing long expanses of desert. I’ve never gone over 350 miles with my NC3Vs.

On my last trip to California I rode for 900+ miles from my fill up spot in Vegas at $2.88 per gallon. I have two of these 5.3 gallon jerry cans https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/p...uLc4yvB4jF1ezDwjcXe2txahpkqHoYoUaAtBBEALw_wcB from Tractor Supply. They fit inside the side door step or behind the rear wheels nicely without getting in the way. Best to empty after you burn off the first 10 gallons. :smilewink: I used to do 700-725 when I drove slow 64-67 GPS speed, but now around 650 miles per tank with a load at 69-70 GPS speed.
 
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Boxster1971

2023 Sprinter 2500 144wb AWD
Bounce the right direction towards the only clear choice, the diesel.:clapping: There is still maintenance on a gas engine, you can also check this site https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/gasprices/states/index.shtml to compare gas and diesel prices in your neck of the woods. If everyone starts cheap'in out and buying the gas engine MB might follow the trend here and get rid of the diesel engine completely. Save the diesel. Volkswagen has made some real poor decisions, and MB's idea to remove the 4 cylinder from the USA line up was purely dominated by the crisis that VW went through here in the United States. Let's get the 4 cylinder diesel back in the states. How many signatures do we need? :rolleyes:
I sent several emails to MBUSA and Daimler asking them to bring back the 4-cylinder diesels. Here are the responses I received a few days later…

From MBUSA Customer Assistance Center...
==================
Dear Mike,

Thank you for your email to Mercedes-Benz USA.

Mercedes-Benz realizes that rarely will a single design element suit the individual preferences of every person. There are numerous factors that must be carefully weighed when determining any new design element or modification.

As a valued Mercedes-Benz customer, we welcome your feedback. It helps to keep us current in understanding the needs and preferences of our current and prospective customers. To this end, we have shared your comments with our Product Management Team for their review and future consideration.

We appreciate the opportunity to respond.

Kind Regards,

Jennah H.
Mercedes-Benz USA
(800) 367-6372
==================

… and this...
==================
Dear Mr. xxx:

Thank you for your recent email.

Mercedes-Benz believes all customer feedback is very important. We want to thank you for taking your personal time to provide this to us.

Acting solely as the distributor of our automotive products within the United States, Mercedes-Benz USA, LLC isn't involved in the design or manufacture of automobiles and related products. The research and design of our automotive products is conducted by our parent company, Daimler AG in Germany.

We truly appreciate you feedback and rest assured your comments have been duly noted.

Sincerely,

Romy
Executive Referral Manager
Mercedes-Benz USA, LLC
1-800-367-6372 (ext. 7832)
==================

Edit - here are the email addresses I used.
dialog@daimler.com
mercedes_benz@mailca.custhelp.com

I found some executive emails in a Google search but they just got this automated reply...

Thank you for your email. Please be advised that this is an unmonitored mailbox and the account will be deactivated in the near future. For customer inquiries, please contact the Customer Assistance Center at 1-800-FOR-MERC (1-800-367-6372) or send email to: mercedes_benz@mailca.custhelp.com
 
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HarryN

Well-known member
Bounce the right direction towards the only clear choice, the diesel.:clapping: There is still maintenance on a gas engine, you can also check this site https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/gasprices/states/index.shtml to compare gas and diesel prices in your neck of the woods. If everyone starts cheap'in out and buying the gas engine MB might follow the trend here and get rid of the diesel engine completely. Save the diesel. Volkswagen has made some real poor decisions, and MB's idea to remove the 4 cylinder from the USA line up was purely dominated by the crisis that VW went through here in the United States. Let's get the 4 cylinder diesel back in the states. How many signatures do we need? :rolleyes:

You might be sending your letter to the wrong folks. MB doesn't enjoy taking options away from their customers, it is the Federal EPA and CA / NY EPA equivalents that need your pressure.

The difference in emissions between most MB offerings world wide is negligible compared to vehicles produced just 20 years ago, and even those were dramatically better than 25 years before that.

The issue is over-regulation and overly aggressive responses to minor imperfections in results, not desire.

MB spent a fortune on that 4 cyl diesel and tuning it for a variety of vehicles, including the sprinter. I doubt that they intended to hold it back from the US market after all of that investment. Not sure if it is what I would purchase or not, but that is a separate discussion.
 

Boxster1971

2023 Sprinter 2500 144wb AWD
You might be sending your letter to the wrong folks. MB doesn't enjoy taking options away from their customers, it is the Federal EPA and CA / NY EPA equivalents that need your pressure.

The difference in emissions between most MB offerings world wide is negligible compared to vehicles produced just 20 years ago, and even those were dramatically better than 25 years before that.

The issue is over-regulation and overly aggressive responses to minor imperfections in results, not desire.

MB spent a fortune on that 4 cyl diesel and tuning it for a variety of vehicles, including the sprinter. I doubt that they intended to hold it back from the US market after all of that investment. Not sure if it is what I would purchase or not, but that is a separate discussion.
I'm not interested in having the USA reduce its emissions standards. However a global harmonized standard would be good economics for all automobile manufactures.

Manufactures make decisions based on economics - what they think will sell and make the most money. The jury is still out on if the Mercedes Vans decision to offer the USA a small gasoline engine will sell. It might just go the route of the V-6 gas engine they once sold under Dodge label.

When Mercedes dropped diesel cars and SUVs last year they said diesels were only 2% of their USA market. It was an economic decision. They can obviously make diesels that meet the USA emissions requirements.
 

dynaco1

Member
From CNN Business News:

"German car makers are in a particularly tough spot. BMW, Volkswagen and Daimler, which owns Mercedes-Benz, have big operations in China. They also face weak economic growth at home, residual pain from the diesel scandal and new emissions targets. Daimler (DDAIF) warned Friday of a slump in profits this year because of recalls, legal issues and weak sales. It expects a second quarter loss of €1.6 billion ($1.8 billion), and its van business is in dire straits".

MB needs a Sprinter gasoline engine to compete with the Transit (not because diesel is a dwindling fuel). To continue with two diesel engine designs might serve to cannibalize their own already-slim market share.
 
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Boxster1971

2023 Sprinter 2500 144wb AWD
… IMO, MB needs a Sprinter gasoline engine to compete with the Transit (not because diesel is a dwindling fuel). To continue with two diesel engine designs might serve to cannibalize their own already-slim market share.
IMHO - Mercedes-Benz has lost the market for USA vans to Ford. Sprinters might sell well in world market, but it USA Ford sells over 100,000 Transit vans per year. They are everywhere. The Sprinter is a premium market and if they think they can outsell Ford in USA they will go bankrupt trying to do it.

http://carsalesbase.com/us-car-sales-data/ford/ford-transit/

http://carsalesbase.com/us-car-sales-analysis-2018-q1-large-commercial-van-segment/
 

avanti

2022 Ford Transit 3500
The profound unreliability of Sprinter diesel emissions and associated instrumentation systems is in the process of killing the platform. The chickens are coming home to roost. The True Believers and the diminishing number of lucky owners of trouble-free vans can deny the reality of the issues until the cows come home. The fact is that the situation is dire and I see no evidence that it is getting better, or even that MB is putting much effort into addressing it.

Dennis has suggested that modern gas engines are just as complex and have the potential for having similar problems. This may be true, but I don't think so. There are FAR more gas engines in the world, so they can be expected to attract far more R&D money. The industry clearly knows how to build reliable, clean gas engines. It is not at all clear to me that the same can be said about diesel.

Grand Tour is correct in his comments about horsepower vs torque. All these "it is torque that counts" comments reflect 20th century thinking. With enough HP and a good-enough transmission, you can have any torque you want. The new many-speed transmissions are superb. They make the traditional arguments concerning power-curves irrelevant. They permit engines to operate in their sweet-spot across a very wide range of conditions. They are at least as important as the engines themselves in explaining why the "torque" arguments are no longer relevant.
 
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OrioN

2008 2500 170" EXT
IMHO - Mercedes-Benz has lost the market for USA vans to Ford. Sprinters might sell well in world market, but it USA Ford sells over 100,000 Transit vans per year. They are everywhere. The Sprinter is a premium market and if they think they can outsell Ford in USA they will go bankrupt trying to do it.

http://carsalesbase.com/us-car-sales-data/ford/ford-transit/

http://carsalesbase.com/us-car-sales-analysis-2018-q1-large-commercial-van-segment/
Your own link contradicts your opinions..... :rolleyes:

Sprinter Van sales have increased year after year, and their ratio to Ford Transit/E Series has increased over said period. :thumbup:








.
 
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OrioN

2008 2500 170" EXT
Not recently. First quarter year-over-year US sales are down 9%. Market share is down worldwide:

View attachment 115377

https://www.daimler.com/dokumente/i...nberichte/q1/daimler-ir-factsheet-q1-2019.pdf
None of this has relevance or correlation to the the point I made to the point Boxster made....

MB recent or current market share decline in USA is based on MB's USA production plant logistic AND emissions cheating shortcomings resulting in not enough stock to sell, and not the public.







.
 
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Grand Tour is correct in his comments about horsepower vs torque. All these "it is torque that counts" comments reflect 20th century thinking. With enough HP and a good-enough transmission, you can have any torque you want. The new many-speed transmissions are superb. They make the traditional arguments concerning power-curves irrelevant. They permit engines to operate in their sweet-spot across a very wide range of conditions. They are at least as important as the engines themselves in explaining why the "torque" arguments are no longer relevant.
Yup. The Sprinter is now available with a 9-speed automatic, and Ford and GM have a 10-speed automatic. There are no driving conditions under which the fat oart of the powerband is not a split-second away.
 
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Avanti is right- the Transit has been crushing the Sprinter since before the Sprinter even existed. Ford has sold over 8 million Transits since 1965. The Sprinter is just a blip on the radar- and the Sprinter will be a TEMPORARY blip, if they don't get their diesel emissions system problems sorted out right quick.

The first three minutes of the first video is a little history of the Transit, and then moves into the Ford Transit Nurburgring lap attempt made by Sabine Schmitz"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQJKQjXpGQA

…and the second video continues to the completion of Sabine's Nurburgring lap attempt:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5KiC03_wVjc

BTW, we spent some time with Sabine when we visited the Nurburgring. We were there to drive my wife's new BMW Track Pack car on the Nurburgring at speed. We were there for about four days, and stayed at the Hotel am Tiergarten, which is owned by Sabine and her mom. Sabine loaned my wife one of her own personal fire suits and helmets and took my wife for a VERY fast lap of the Nurburgring in the passenger seat of her Porsche 997 GT3 RS during a VLN practice session...and then invited us to have beers with her after she was done driving for the day. :cheers:
 

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