LHM limp home mode possible causes

Aqua Puttana

Poly - Thread Finder
lack loss of, no power on hills engine sluggish

Limp Home Mode (LHM) Possible Causes

Limp Home Mode or Limp-in is an operating condition set by the Sprinter computer(s). Technicians may refer to the vehicle computer as the ECU Engine Control Unit, ECM engine control module, or PCM power-train control module. The ECM or TCM transmission control module both have the capability of setting a LHM state. LHM limp home mode is a programmed response for the computer recognizing abnormal operation of your engine/drive-train. The intent is that it limits the power available and therefore will allow you to operate the engine and keep driving, but limit any damage to your engine and drive train.

There are various levels of LHM possible. The most severe is the transmission limited to one forward gear (usually 2nd gear) and reverse, with engine power reduced. LHM is not really a symptom as such, it is more a normal pre-programmed response to the recognized problem. The MIL Malfunction Indicator Light, or sometimes called the CEL Check Engine Light may or may not be lit when the computer calls for LHM.

Please read this: It is important to note that all loss of power situations are not necessarily LHM set by the computer. Regular old problems like a plugged fuel filter, dirty air filter, mechanical turbo control linkage failures, plugged exhaust system, etc. may also cause a lack of power which is not computer set/related. The computer only sets LHM if it becomes aware of a problem, sometimes the sensors don't notice so it just doesn't know. It would be so much easier if MB included a "LHM Set" dash light indicator.

Any diagnosing of why your Sprinter went into LHM needs to include reading the trouble codes available. It very well may require using a dealer computer scan tool. That is a DRBIII or DAD for T1N model NAFTA Sprinters (2006 and older).

Added:
As a point of clarification.

No scan tool can "Clear LHM's".

Limp Home Mode LHM is a reduced power mode enabled to protect the drive train from severe damage. It is set by a module(s) when certain unusual vehicle operating conditions are detected.

LHM response can range from simply disabling the turbo (reduced power) to setting engine RPM limits to limiting the transmission operation. The transmission operation can be limited to Park/2nd gear/neutral/reverse, and in the most severe lockout, no transmission drive response at all.

Repairs or other corrections to the vehicle need to be effected to restore operation. Most all lower level engine related LHM modes will be disabled without clearing the DTC's aka codes once the offending problem is corrected, or if the detected problem just goes away (for a time).

Transmission LHM
Even after repairs, to restore proper operation transmission related LHM generally does require accessing the TCM to clear the transmission related DTC's. A Sprinter specific scan tool aka "higher level" is needed to access the TCM to clear those DTC's. Clearing the companion DTC's found in the ECM aka ECU is not enough.

There is a danger in not fully recording the DTC's before clearing a module history. DTC's can be cleared which may never again present to help aid in troubleshooting. A failing part can trigger a DTC and then not be noticed after that failure.

Loss of history using a generic OBDII scan tool can be even more devastating to troubleshooting. A generic tool has the ability to clear codes which it can't even display.

If under warranty I would never clear ANY DTC history. The dealership often needs that information to apply warranty repairs. That can include mandated emissions control related extended warranty.

The act of clearing DTC's with a scan tool of itself is not a repair. Not all lack of power situations are computer set LHM.

:2cents: vic
No Scan Tool??? Maybe this will work.

Thanks goes to Nick. :thumbup:

Thought this might be useful if people are stuck in limp mode in the middle of nowhere and have no code reader. Couldn`t find the info on google when I searched so I asked my local hire van place to write it down as I forgot the sequence when they told me several months ago.

I know this works on older Ncv3`s, Ive just tried on my 02 T1N it works on that (my T1N has no central locking so I just ignored that step)

1.Key in
2.Turn ignition on and off 7 times (do not start)
3.Take key out and lock with remote button on key
4.Wait for lights to go out
5.Unlock with remote button on key and start .

Just tried it on my T1N and its cleared my traction control light that was stuck on, I didn`t have any lights(step 4) on to go out but it beeped when I removed the key.
Used it on a Ncv3 hire van that went into limp mode and it got me home :thumbup:
One caution on the above.
We don't know what the 7 times key sequence really does. It likely erases all DTC history. That can be a very bad thing if you are under warranty.


Although this LHM info is posted in a T1N section much of it applies to both the T1N and NCV3. Please note that the model specific information is intermixed.

20120103 edit:
My personal method of determining whether there is a computer set LHM.

Sometimes the computer isn't involved with low power situations. The test I feel applies is this:

Lower forms of LHM.
After having not made any repairs or alterations, if your normal operation and power returns after a simple shutdown and restart then whether you have an MIL (aka CEL) lit or not, the computer was involved in limiting the power. In most cases the symptoms will eventually return.

Additional info:

More severe forms of LHM.
If a shutdown/restart doesn't return operation to normal and you have a MIL (aka CEL) lit then the computer has likely set an LHM which requires repairs and may require clearing the codes with a scan tool.

Limited to one forward gear (likely 2nd) and reverse gear.
The most severe level of LHM. This form of LHM is often related to transmission problems. This requires repairs and most always requires reset by a scan tool capable of communication with the Transmission Control Module TCM to restore proper operation.

These are some known conditions that may cause the ECM to set LHM.

Turbo Boost Pressures abnormal

Any time the turbo boost, or the Mass Air calculated value, is not in a range that the ECU considers normal it may set LHM. Some possible turbo boost leak areas are:
In 2004 - 2006 NAFTA Models - Turbo resonator failure. Typically a seam cracks. One indication of leakage is oil being found on that cracked seam.

In all models - splits in the turbo outlet hoses and loose clamps are a possibility. Cracked Charge Air Coolers have been reported. Charge Air Cooler cracks don't seem to be a common failure, but should be inspected. There is a mechanical turbo blade positioner on pre-2004 OM612 engines and an electrical positioner on the 2004 - 2006 OM647 engines. Anything that may allow turbo air to leak, or anything that reduces turbo air flow to the manifold can be a problem.

Turbo boost system leaks should be repaired in a timely manner. The turbo may be set to full output to try and supply proper intake pressures if there is a leak. Operating at full output all the time may reduce the service life of the turbo.

EGR Exhaust Gas Recirculating Problems

The EGR has been known to cause an LHM response. On pre-2004 OM612 engines an EGR cleaning may address the problem. Post 2003 model EGR units do not seem to need regular cleaning. There is recent threads that indicate post OM612 EGR valves will respond to DIY cleaning if it is discovered that the valve doesn't snap back closed freely. DO NOT REMOVE THE EGR body SECURITY SCREWS WITH THE LITTLE REJECTION NUB IN THE TORX HEAD.


After I wrote the above introduction rather than re-inventing the wheel I contacted JD Caples to see if he had any input. The following is what he contributed. Many thanks to Jon for his efforts and input. I just cut and pasted, so it may be a bit disjointed. Additional LHM cause information posted by others is encouraged. Hope this does some good. vic

Jon's Input:

Transmission Sensor Readings (whether an actual physical condition or faulty sensor reading)
From Andy Bittenbinder:
Limp home mode is typically triggered by overspeed indications from
the internal transmission input speed sensors, engine overspeed or
improper gear ratio faults. You will likely find TCM DTCs (Diagnostic Trouble Codes) related to
these faults. Cause can be electrical, control unit or transmission
related. Doktor A
More from Andy Bittenbinder:
The TCM(transmission control module) is able to signal the illumination of
a MIL(malfunction indicator lamp)which we see in the instrument
cluster as the small engine/trans(drivetrain) pictogragh. It does this
by communicating with the ECU(engine control unit) to trigger that
lamp. The TCM stores its own failure codes(DTCs) which can then be
accessed by technicians. It can recognize many misc. elect. problems
and some hydraulic problems.
First a few words regarding limp-home/shut down modes. Some (minor)
DTCs(failure codes) will allow the trans to resume business as usual
when problems go away on their own. More serious anomalies will shut
down all the internal solenoids and default to whatever gear you
happen to be in at the time. After you cycle the ign. key (or shift
into park) it will then go into a limp-home mode which is (usually)
2nd gear and reverse and a shut off of the TCC(torque converter
clutch). Typically a max. of about 3 cycles of the key will allow a
"temporary reset" to quasi-normal operation and after that, limp-home
will be permanent until the dealer clears the codes. Some failures
will not shut down all internal control solenoids. If internal
slippage is detected it may default to 3rd gear operation(in
limp-home). The transmission can even become totally disabled by
defaulting to neutral(!). Engine overrev could trigger that mode.
How does the TCM know when fluid levels are low? Or more
importantly, low enough to cause possible damage? The TCM monitors the
speed of the 2 internal drive elements. It also monitors output
shaft speed(I seem to recall it has no dedicated sensor for this
funtion but uses ABS or some other external signal). Anyway, by
monitoring these rotational speeds it can recognize (and calculate)
SLIPPAGE. In 2nd, 3rd, and 4th, for instance, the elements should be
spinning at same speeds. It probably will recognize it before you can
and then trigger the MIL and limp-home. Permanent damage then depends
on how far you drive under these conditions. Moral of the story-If
driving and engine-trans MIL lights and limp symptoms appear-STOP and
at least look inside/underneath for signs of the obvious-such as
leakage. Carry a trans dipstick and extra fluid if you're prone to
driving far from civilization. Oh, and a postscript-just to complicate
things- not all limp-homes of 2nd gear and reverse involve
transmission anomalies! For instance a failure of communication
between control units (via the CAN bus) will trigger that same
limp-home. If the TCM can't talk to the ABS control unit your going
home in 2nd gear(that is-after those 3 ign. key cycles). Andy
 
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Aqua Puttana

Poly - Thread Finder
More of Jon's input. (I ran out of character space in the first post.)

Overheated Fuel
The fuel system is a fluid circuit starting at the fuel tank, forward to the filter and injector pump, then to the common rail. Fuel which is unneeded for combustion will be returned to the tank though a low pressure return system that MB refers to as the "leak oil line." Fuel is heated on its path to and from the engine compartment.
The ECM will reduce engine power (limp) to prevent overheating of fuel.
A scan tool is able to read the fuel temperature information received by the ECU to confirm the source of the problem is a sensor crying wolf, or an actual temperature issue.
Crankshaft Position Sensor (CPS) (recall info description)
Details: ON CERTAIN UTILITY VANS, THE CRANKSHAFT SENSOR IN CERTAIN
DIESEL ENGINES COULD FAIL DUE TO SEPARATION OF BOND WIRES FROM THE
LEAD FRAME IN THE SENSOR. THIS RESULTS IN AN INTERRUPTION IN THE
ELECTRICAL CONNECTION IN THE CHIP HOUSING OF THE SENSOR.

Consequence: WHEN THIS HAPPENS, THE VEHICLES MAY LOSE POWER RATHER
THAN ENTER A LIMP-HOME MODE. IN ADDITION, THE VEHICLE CANNOT BE
RESTARTED AFTER FAILURE OF THE ELECTRICAL CONNECTION IN THE SENSOR,
INCREASING THE RISK OF A CRASH.

Corrective Action: DEALERS WILL REPLACE THE CRANKSHAFT SENSORS. THE
RECALL IS EXPECTED TO BEGIN DURING FEBRUARY 2008. OWNERS MAY CONTACT
SPRINTER AT 1-843-695-5000.

NOTE: The Crankshaft Position Sensor (CPS) recall applies ONLY to 2007 Sprinters and even then not all of that year.
More info can be found here:
https://sprinter-source.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7761

Ambient Air Temperature Sensor

This sensor measures the outside air temp. It's used to "verify" the air intake sensor reading.
If the Ambient Air Temperature Sensor is reading someting like 120 degrees F, when it's actually 50 degrees LHM can be unjustifiably triggered when it doesn't agree with the engine air temp.
The EGR Back Pressure Sensor
The EGR back pressure sensor is located in the exhaust stream next to the EGR bypass valve. The sensor determines the exhaust pressure before the catalytic converter. The ECM uses the EGR back pressure sensor for engine protection and exhaust gas turbocharger protection.
To prevent damage to the turbocharger from overheating and/or overspeeding, the ECM monitors the exhaust pressure upstream of the turbocharger. At high exhaust backpressures, the speed of the turbocharger drops and consequently the boost pressure drops. The ECM adjusts the guide vanes in the turbocharger to regulate the boost pressure.
WARNING: If the exhaust back pressure is too high, the ECM switches to limp-in mode to protect the turbocharger. The limp-in mode can only be reset by restarting the engine.
Accelerator Pedal Position
If there is a fault detected with the accelerator pedal position sensor, the ECM will set the engine speed at 1100 RPM.


Transmission Control Module
EMERGENCY RUNNING FUNCTION
In order to ensure a safe driving state and to prevent damage to the automatic transmission, the TCM control module switches to limp-home mode in the event of critical faults. A diagnostic trouble code (DTC) assigned to the fault is stored in memory. All solenoid and regulating valves are thus de-energized.
The net effect is:
· The last engaged gear remains engaged.
· The modulating pressure and shift pressures rise to the maximum levels.
· The torque converter lockup clutch is deactivated.
In order to preserve the operability of the vehicle to some extent, the hydraulic control can be used to engage 2nd gear or reverse using the following procedure:
· Stop the vehicle.
· Move selector lever to "P".
· Switch off engine.
· Wait at least 10 seconds.
· Start engine.
· Move selector lever to D: 2nd gear.
· Move selector lever to R: Reverse gear.
The limp-home function remains active until the DTC is rectified or the stored DTC is erased with the appropriate scan tool. Sporadic faults can be reset via ignition OFF/ON.
0228-ELECTRONIC THROTTLE CONTROL SYSTEM - ICE BLOCKAGE.

· When Monitored:
Ignition on.
· Set Condition:
The ECM recognizes the Throttle plate is stuck during extremely cold Ambient Temperature operation. The throttle plate goes through a de-icing procedure. If the throttle blade still doesn't move this fault sets. The MIL will not illuminate. ETC light will illuminate. The vehicle will be in Limp home condition, limiting rpm and vehicle speed.



Possible Causes

THROTTLE PLATE FROZEN

Diagnostic Test
1. THROTTLE BODY INSPECTION

Ignition on, engine not running.
With a scan tool, View DTCs and record the related Freeze Frame data.
NOTE: This DTC sets in extreme cold Ambient Temperatures with the throttle plate stuck by the time the vehicle gets to the dealership the condition may be corrected.
NOTE: Diagnose any other DTCs that may also be set before continuing.

Turn the ignition off.
Remove the Air Cleaner Assembly from the Throttle Body.
Check for any signs of a foreign material (ice or dirt) on the Throttle Plate or in the bore causing the Throttle Plate to stick.

BOOST PRESSURE SENSOR

If the boost pressure sensor fails, the ECM records a DTC into memory and continues to operate the engine in one of the three limp-in modes. When the ECM is operating in this mode, a loss of power will be present, as if the turbocharger was not operating. The best method for diagnosing faults with the boost pressure sensor is with a diagnostic scan tool.
Refer to On-Board Diagnostics in Emissions Control System for a list of Diagnostic Trouble Codes (DTC's) for certain fuel system components.
 
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Aqua Puttana

Poly - Thread Finder
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Aqua Puttana

Poly - Thread Finder
Another post that may be related to LHM. STP57 does a good job describing the operating conditions as "I experienced a substantial loss of power. I was able to drive it home, it just didn't have any passing speed & it never got over 65 mph." Thanks to STP57 for that description. I'm certain it will help others identify the LHM computer setting. That said, it remains to be seen whether STP57's problem is just a fuel related issue or an actual Limp Home Mode setting condition.

Link to the post is here:
Reset engine light?
https://sprinter-source.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7188

AP
 
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Aqua Puttana

Poly - Thread Finder
I found this description of turbo resonator failure on the Yahoo forum. I think it is well described and worth posting here. Thanks to Stan Fleming for the insight. AP/vic

Classic Turbo Resonator failure - it likely has a weak joint in the plastic body of the resonator - it will "heal itself" when you shut the unit down and it cools a bit, BUT when you put a heavy load on it again (i.e. climbing a hill or accelerating into traffic) the joint will open up again enough to lose turbo pressure - the result is the computer puts the engine in LHM (Limp Home Mode). I suggest you replace the original equipment plastic resonator with the Jim Riordan aluminum replacement.
Turbo Resonator Problem
https://sprinter-source.com/forums/showthread.php?t=796

Stan's post is here:
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/sprintervan/message/52503
 
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Aqua Puttana

Poly - Thread Finder
Turbo Actuator Frozen Seized P0299 code

This problem was on an OM647 engine, but could apply to others also. After some troubleshooting and testing it was found that it was the turbo vane actuator linkage being frozen that sent the ECU to LHM limp home mode. Thanks to Mwscwan and of course Doktor A.

The link is here:
2005 Low Boost Diagnostics
https://sprinter-source.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7538

AP/vic
 
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gib70

New member
Hi new to forum..
In relation to LHM thrown , I have a 2002 208Cdi sprinter , which I found that the boost pressure valve/sensor wire were broken(1 only). Resoldering the wire definately kept the turbo hoses inflated , so I now have what appears to be pressure.
When the power loss happened , I was doin around 80 km/h , instant power loss and a maximum of 2900-3000 rpm.

When the wire was found I figured it would instantly increase my power back to normal. This was not the case.

Do error codes , fix themselves or do they need to be CLEARED?
Would this instant power drop have caused turbo damage?


Prior to wire correction , the turbo inlet/outlet hosing would not stay hard /inflated.Now it does , but I still only have 3000 rpm maximum.
The van drives OK , but lacks that power boost which is quite noticeable.

Any ideas....

Also ...different problem...What controls the glow plug light?
Mine is staying on. can I pop a relay/fuse to stop glows? Coming into summer here , dont need to glow at the moment.
Thoughts? Sysptoms? cause?

thanks all
Marty
 

Aqua Puttana

Poly - Thread Finder
Marty,
First a hale and hearty welcome to the forum.

I have copied your question to another section because this LHM thread in Write-ups will be taken way off course if people answer your multiple questions here. I'm as good as anyone (better than most) at getting off topic, but the Write-ups section is a more How-to and informational section than a multiple questions area.

No big problem so no worries. It's just my perception of order.

There is a delete option for your post above if you're OK with where I copied and posted your questions for you. Click on"edit", then "delete", type in the reason for delete. A suggestion is to type "AP was very anal retentive and moved my questions", then click on the final confirmation box. Thanks, AP/vic
 
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Aqua Puttana

Poly - Thread Finder
Fuel Pressure Related LHM on post 2003 NAFTA Sprinters

The OM612 NAFTA engines (2001-2003) have a low fuel pressure monitor system and indicator light that shows on the extreme left side of the instrument panel.

LowFuelPress.jpg

That feature is not available on 2004 and newer NAFTA Sprinters (NCV3 included?). For this reason I believe LHM can be set by the ECM if fuel flow is low because the fuel filter is dirty. This would mean that you may get LHM with no MIL (aka CEL) lamp lit. That said, a dirty fuel filter may not be actually causing an LHM operation, but the drive-ability symptoms could be similar. These are my conclusions. Doktor A or Sprintguy would have more details. AP/vic

Single post is here. Original thread is available in upper corner:
Please help / New here / Eliminator problem?
https://sprinter-source.com/forums/showpost.php?p=62451&postcount=2

Does your MIL maintenance indicator light (sometimes called the CEL check engine light) come on at the time of your problems? You really should have the codes scanned.

It sounds like you have a deteriorating condition causing your problems. A total shot in the dark if you are not getting a MIL coming on is to change the fuel filter. It is not very expensive and a dirty filter has been known to affect performance without turning on the MIL. I recently learned that the 2004 models and newer do not have a low fuel pressure monitor system for the 1st stage pump.


Andy Bittenbinder's explanation is here:
Road Trip:St Louis to Jackson, WY
https://sprinter-source.com/forums/showpost.php?p=61993&postcount=4
 
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kitesurfer

Member
Ahh this post explains something that was happening on my sprinter a while back that had me very confused. :thinking:

I run a twin tank veg oil system on my 1996 sprinter. When the engine is cold i run diesel and when the engine has warmed up i run wvo. During the period of setting up my system i had a few teething problems. Mainly with fuel starvation. Some of the plastic connectors i'd put in the modified fuel system collapsed partially, see photos below. This created a blockage that whislt was not a problem at lower revs and loads when i tried to boot it up a hill my engine would mysteriously run out of power. I assumed that if i backed off and ran on diesel again the problem would go away as i thought the veg oil was the problem. Nope the engine remained in this mode, able to rev and tick over but with seemingly no power until i swithced off the engine left it for a couple of mins and then was able to continue on my merry way.
Once i tracked down the collapsed pipes (there were 3 of them :yell:) the problem disappeared. I'm guessing it was the engine swtiching into this LHM mode when not enough fuel was available.

Useful thread this one.





KS
 

Aqua Puttana

Poly - Thread Finder
Autostaretx (Dick) highlighted a good point in a post today. There apparently are different levels of LHM that the computers may set to limit power and possible damage to your engine drive train. The most severe set by the TCM transmission control module is the transmission in only one gear (generally 2nd gear) and very limited power. I believe some other low power mode settings are also LHM selected by the ECM (computer). How the ECM or TCM decides exactly what level is needed is beyond my knowledge, but is somewhat explained in earlier information in this thread collected/contributed by JD Caples. Then again there may be conditions like the seized turbo vane linkage that may not be setting a true LHM, but the resulting power limiting symptoms are similar.

Thanks goes to autostaretx for the comment.

Text here from post #6:

If it's truly in Limp mode, you will -only- have access to 2nd gear and reverse.

That pretty much limits your speed to below 40 mph (in either direction).

If it's willing to shift into other forward gears, it's not truly limping.
(when my IAT would fail, the Sprinter had no power for climbing hills and had the check engine light on,
but it was perfectly willing to shift up and down).

good luck
--dick

Original thread here:

I need advice, 2002 with no power
https://sprinter-source.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8083

Hope this does some good. AP/vic
 
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Aqua Puttana

Poly - Thread Finder
A recent power loss issue that turned out to be the EGR. The symptom discussions may help others. Thanks to all contributors to the thread and to Brucetheparishiltonfan for the follow up. AP/vic

What RPM range should you keep a T1N in?
https://sprinter-source.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8152
 
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Aqua Puttana

Poly - Thread Finder
A bit more discussion about levels of LHM can be found in Jon Caples thread starting around post #6 here:

Jon's first drive-ability issue - EGR System Related DTC
https://sprinter-source.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8337

Turns out there are LHM options which can be set by either (both?) the ECM engine control module (a.k.a. ECU engine control unit or electronic control unit) and/or the TCM transmission control module. More info is available in that thread if you are interested. AP/vic

A recent TCM set LHM thread. Doktor A adds more information in post #5.

Trans won't shift out off 1st gear.Nag 1
https://sprinter-source.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10834
 
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Aqua Puttana

Poly - Thread Finder
An entire LHM saga. This is going to be long to read, but I really think it illustrates perfectly how the diagnosis process can unfold and how much we can help each other on the forums. Thanks goes to Doktor A, Yahoo Sprintervan, all contributors, and especially Mike Sokol for the great summary post. The names have not been changed to protect the innocent. vic
****
"Mike Sokol"

turbo hose(s) replacement

I drove back 4 hours from VA last night, and it appears I split in the turbo
hose on my 2002 with 190,000 miles. The Scan Gauge MAP only got to 17.5 PSI or
so (normally 30 MAP on hills), and LOD wouldn't go much above 80%, which of
course goes to 99% on full acceleration. I couldn't hear any hissing, but then
again it was dark and I couldn't poke around the engine too much.

I was able to fly home at 70+ MPH on the level, but big hills made me gear down
to 4th or 3rd to stop lugging the engine. Classic turbo hose failure, correct?
I'll snoop around the engine today and see if I can locate the split, but I'm
wondering if I should go ahead and replace both turbo hoses just for grins. I
think there's a short hose from the turbo to the intercooler and a longer hose
from the intercooler to the manifold, correct? Anything else I should look for
while I'm messing with this? Remember, there is no resonator to fail on a 2002,
so that's not an issue. I'm prepping for my Maryland to Texas to California to
Denver to Maryland drive next month, so anything I do now as preventative
maintenance now could save me lost road time.

Thanks for your input.... JMS
****
"aquaputtana"

Mike,
With all the great advice you've given, I feel kinda funny replying to this one.

2002.... 190,000 miles.... big trip ahead in potentially hot areas of the USA...
you're going to be under, over, around, greasy replacing one hose, two, or
three. If all the hoses are OEM I'd say to change them out.

Another possible direction would be to reinforce them using black cable ties as
I did. My method is untested though so take it for what it's worth. A
description and pictures are here:
https://sprinter-source.com/forums/showpost.php?p=60376&postcount=70

While you're poking around if you haven't changed the heater hoses I'd check
them closely too. I suppose given the generally cooler operating temperatures of
our diesel vs a gas engine they should be OK, but you never know. Hope this does
some good. vic
****
James Selm

If I had a unit with 190 K I would find me a good auto electrical shop that rebuilds alternators and I would have my alternator rebuilt, replace the water pump and change the hoses and belts.

Jim 07VH 32K
****
Mike Sokol

Re: [sprintervan] Re: turbo hose(s) replacement

I've read a lot about their resonator replacement, but how about http://www.riordanco.com/our_products_catalog.htm#ADAP-06 aluminum adaptor for the hose end. Is it worth the $100 for peace of mind? I'll have a chance tomorrow to really get a look at the problem, so if it's a split is on the end of the hose, perhaps the ADAP-06 is worth looking at. I had all the turbo hoses replaced about 60,000 miles ago when the turbocharger seized up, so I'm a bit miffed if a new hose let go in only 60K miles, but according to Riordanco, it's bad engineering.

JMS
****
Mike Sokol

Re: [sprintervan] Re: turbo hose(s) replacement

I'll peek around some more. The alternator is original, but I think the water pump was changed out at 90,000 miles when the head was replaced. Still, that's a lot of miles, but there's no leaks, squeals, or squeaks of any kind.

The transmission fluid was changed at 85,000 miles, so perhaps it's time for that and a differential oil change as well. I have about a month to get this all done, then it's pedal down for 1,800 miles to my first stop in Texas this May.

Doktor A.... Looking for a spring project?

JMS
****
rb3232 atgmail

Re: [sprintervan] Re: turbo hose(s) replacement

Hi Mike, I think that adapter is for the 6 cyl. Would it even fit the 5 cyl? Good Luck, Ross
****
rb3232 atgmail

Re: [sprintervan] Re: turbo hose(s) replacement

My bad. I see there is an adapter for the 5 cyl also. Ross
****
Mike Sokol

Re: [sprintervan] Re: turbo hose(s) replacement

According to their website it's for the 5 cylinder. Anyone tried one on a early Sprinter?

ADAP-06 - 2002 through early 2007, 2.7 liter 5 Cyl. Inline engine

We consider it an honor that once again Dodge dealers have asked us for a fix. This time, it is for the 2002 to 2007 2.7 liter , 5 cylinder in-line engines intercooler to intake manifold hoses which are cracking and then blowing out at the end of this hose, causing the engines to go into "limp home mode." This hose has a metal fitting "formed" onto the hose where it enters the intake manifold on the top of the driver’s side of the engine , (See photo below) which is failing causing cracks to form at the fitting (See photo below). At first, the tiny crack may cause an "occasional" limp home mode problem and then seemingly return to normal. Soon, however, this tiny crack "blows out" and becomes a big crack, putting the engine in limp home mode and ruining your workday or vacation schedule. Now you can eliminate this problem before it starts (no need to wait until the hose fails) with our ADAP-06 which solves the end cracking problems once and for all. (See Photo below) The ADAP-06 typically costs less than replacing the hose, since this hose is sold in a 3 part assembly (please see our Installation PDF below ) The ADAP-06 is being installed by many Dodge dealers and does not affect your warranty.

JMS
****
aquaputtana

Re: turbo hose(s) replacement

Mike,
I haven't installed one. I also haven't seen much press about those failures on
the forums. You'd think there would be a bunch more questions and comments
surfacing if it was such a common failure. Is that where your 60,000 mile
replacement hose failed? vic
"This time, it is for the 2002 to 2007 2.7 liter , 5 cylinder in-line engines
intercooler to intake manifold hoses which are cracking and then blowing out at
the end of this hose..."
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Mike Sokol

Re: [sprintervan] Re: turbo hose(s) replacement

I'm not sure where it failed. I just felt all the turbo hoses over and under the engine, but can't see or feel any obvious cracks or holes in the hoses. However, if the tear or hole was big enough to feel without any pressure on it, it probably wouldn't have the 3 PSI of boost it made on the trip home. Do intercoolers ever fail without an obvious damage point like a deer in the grill? I don't remember reading about that on any Sprinter forum, but it's certainly possible. If no holes then perhaps its turbo vane or vane control failure like before. I'll look to see if any engine codes where thrown, but it didn't go into LHM or show any other signs of trouble. Just a MAP of 17.5 and doggy performance.
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aquaputtana

Re: turbo hose(s) replacement

Mike,
Perhaps you're in LHM and that is limiting the boost? Note question mark. I
think LHM can be set without a code being set. I KNOW LHM can be set without the
MIL aka CEL being on. There's some info here on LHM.
https://sprinter-source.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7173
vic
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Mike sokol

Re: [sprintervan] Re: turbo hose(s) replacement

You may be right. I just conferred with Doktor A and he suggests it may be a form of LHM. I pulled off the top turbo hose that feeds the intake manifold, and there's no rips, tears, or holes of any kind. Come to think of it, I don't hear the whine of the turbocharger vanes winding up much, so perhaps LHM is telling the ECU not to apply turbo boost. Makes sense. No codes are read from my Scan Gauge, but that's understandable. Need a DRB III or whatever to see ALL the codes.

Now to find the cause of LHM. The good Doktor suggests it might be fuel filter related, and since I have 20,000 miles on this filter already which was filled at a bunch of different truck stops, anything's possible. I have a spare fuel filter in my road kit, so that's a good place to start. Perhaps I'll bite the bullet and let my local FL shop read the codes for me. That might be worth the $90 they'll charge just to narrow down the possibilities.

JMS
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Reached the character limit. Continued....
 
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Aqua Puttana

Poly - Thread Finder
Continued...
If you just clicked in here go back up one post. vic


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Bill Boyer

Re: [sprintervan] Re: turbo hose(s) replacement

If we're talking early 5-cylinder model, might want to check the vacuum line going to the turbo vane actuator.

As far as the fuel filter, when mine clogged up I got no MIL -- not sure about codes as I did not have the ScanGauge yet.
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Mike Sokol

Re: [sprintervan] Re: turbo hose(s) replacement

Hmmmm....

It's an '02 with a vacuum line driving the variable turbo nozzle, so perhaps it's a busted vacuum hose. I'll take a look for trouble.

Thanks for the idea.

JMS
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Bill Boyer

Re: [sprintervan] Re: turbo hose(s) replacement

The hose and actuator is very close to the alternator, and can be damaged if you've changed an alternator recently.
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Mike Sokol

Re: [sprintervan] Re: turbo hose(s) replacement

I've just crawled out from under the Sprinter, and the vacuum hose and actuator going to the turbo appear to be OK mechanically. I just called the local Dodge/Sprinter shop who replaced my turbo 60,000 miles ago, and they're ready to put in a new turbocharger again. Whoa, Nelly!!!! Steady there boys!!! I'm not doing anything until I confirm the diagnosis. Also don't know if this is related, but I've lost a full quart of oil in the last 10,000 miles. I normally might be down 1/2 a quart in 15,000 miles and there's now a layer of black oil/goo on the bottom of the oil pan. Not enough to drip on the driveway, but it was dry on the oil pan when I last changed the oil a few months ago. Bad front seal? Some other related failure?? Muffler bearings??? Who knows??? More to study...

JMS
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Sean Sheedy

Re: [sprintervan] Re: turbo hose(s) replacement

Just the other day, I thought I was in big trouble with my 2006 when I spotted a bunch of oil spots in the driveway. Turned out I had somehow put the oil filler cap on crooked (one tab on the cap was in the hole, one out) and I was blowing oil out of the cap.

Sean
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"IvanCU2"

Re: turbo hose(s) replacement

Speaking of turbo hoses, has anyone found quality replacement silicone turbo
hoses?

I've e-mailed this company:

http://www.turbohoses.com/

Will let you know if I hear anything back.

Ivan
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Neil2

Re: [sprintervan] Re: turbo hose(s) replacement

Did you try The Sprinter place in Lake Oswego, Oregon. He tried to sell me on an aftermarket turbo part which he said wouldn't fail like the factory counterpart. Just a shot. Let me know if you can't google them. I've been there but can't recall which place it is. The Freightliner dealer in Portland is called The Sprinter Center and the specialist in LO is called The Sprinter Source or perhaps it's the reverse.
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IvanCU2

Re: turbo hose(s) replacement - specifications?

Here is the response that I got:

"We do not specifically, if you get me the sizes or even pictures with the
Inside Diameters needed and we can check and see for you. "

Does anyone have this information? My van is a few thousand miles from me right
now.

Ivan
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And the result!!!

Mike Sokol

Re: [sprintervan] Re: turbo hose(s) replacement

The fix....

Took my 2002 Sprinter with 190,000 miles on the odometer to Buchanan Dodge this morning for diagnostics of my low-boost/LHM situation, but lucky for me I had conferred with Doktor A in advance and found out a few things before I took it in for a scan job.

1) I palpated all turbo hoses and could find no tears, holes, or obvious leaks
2) I pulled off the main hose leading to the intake manifold and note a thin film of black oil on the inside, but no other visible cracks at the joint.
3) I changed the fuel filter since it had 30,000 miles already, and that did not correct the low-boost issue.
4) I crawled underneath the turbocharger and inspected the vacuum line feeding the turbo actuator, with no obvious signs of damage or disconnect.
5) My Scan Gauge II showed no failure codes. Map would go no higher than 18 PSI (about 3.5 # boosts) and LOD maxed around 80%.
6) I carefully listened for any air leakage noises from the boost system, but could hear nothing. There was no sound of the turbo spooling up either.
7) I pulled the front intake hose off the turbo per Doktor A and was able to spin the impeller easily by hand, so I was pretty sure the turbocharger itself was not at fault.

The tech hooked up the DRB III Scanner (edit - dealership scan tool) and it showed the only failure as the vacuum controller for the turbo as open or shorted. He didn't believe that was the cause (emphasis mine - vic) since he said that lots of other things could throw that code. He first suggested that the EGR valve was bad and needed to be replaced. I asked if there were any codes to support that, and he said no, but since there was oil on the outside it was probably bad. I said I wasn't paying $650 for a new EGR so forget the idea.

Then he said the turbo hoses needed to be replaced. I asked why, and he said they could leak even if there were no holes or splits. He then commented they should be replaced anyway since I have 190,000 miles on the clock. I told him the hoses had 60,000 miles on them from when they themselves replaced the turbocharger 18 months ago. He wasn't convinced that the turbocharger was OK until I told him I had spun the impeller by hand so don't waste my time/money looking at it.

I finally convinced him to test the solenoid itself for continuity, so he pulled it and disappeared inside to 15 minutes. When he came back he said it tested around 1 million ohms, but he wasn't sure if that was too high since the manual didn't tell him the correct ohms. I reminded him that voltage squared divided by resistance is wattage (you all knew that, right??) and that 1,000,000 ohms on a 12 volt supply would draw less than 1 milli-watt of power, way to little to actuate any sort of mechanical device. I guessed that 100 ohms would be closer to correct since 12 x 12 = 144 and 144 / 100 = 1.4 watts, just what I would expect a small coil on a solenoid to draw. He finally agreed and went back in the shop to check stock. About 10 minutes later the parts guy came out and noted they had a vacuum controller that had ordered for someone else the day before, and they never showed up. So after the bad news of $340 for the part and $200 for labor and taxes, we popped in the new part, reset the error code, and did a road test. All was well. I did bring the old part home for autopsy which should prove interesting.

The really interesting thing is I don't think the tech was actually trying to fleece me by suggesting a bad EGR, hoses, and turbocharger. As I explained the logic of each piece of diagnostics to him he seemed interested in how I knew what to look for. When I did the voltage/current/wattage calculation in my head, he asked what I did for a living... which is of course, diagnose really big sound system problems and train sound technicians how to diagnose their audio failures.

Boy am I glad I spent a few hours testing in advance. That let me cut to the chase as quickly as possible, and not only save more labor billing for ill advised diagnostics, but possibly saved the cost of an EGR valve, turbo hoses, and possibly a turbocharger.

Knowledge is power!

Thanks, Doktor A....

JMS
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Hope this did some good. vic
 
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Wow,

The quality of the information and the generosity of you guys to help is amazing.

Thank you. . . . .
 

Aqua Puttana

Poly - Thread Finder
Some additional bits of info to keep available for the future from Yahoo Sprintervan that surfaced as a result of Mike Sokol's problem.

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Stewart Ives

Mike,

Glad you're up and running.

Can you list the part # that was defective.

Is it obvious that this part has something to do with the Turbo? Proximity to Turbo? Directly connected to Turbo?

I suspect that this part works the turbo waste gate and opens/closes it to adjust the boost. Is that correct?

I tried looking at the parts catalog for 2005 that we can download from Berry (Don't know if it is still available) but I couldn't find any good blow ups of the Turbo.

Do you think there was any other way to test this device or to determine if the Turbo linkage was being actuated or not? I have always thought it would be great to have a mini camera on a goose neck magnet mount that could broadcast via wifi and you could pick it up with your laptop as you went down the road and have a look at whatever it was focused on to see if it was working or not. Seems simple but then most things are, you just have to find the parts and put it together.

Congrats on the fix, sorry it hit your wallet so hard.

stew
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Mike Sokol

Re: [sprintervan] Re: turbo hose(s) replacement


PN 05080371AA Pressure Converter (called a Regulator-Pressure on the service ticket)
Cost $347.50
Weight 1.860 kg

It sits just below and next to the turbocharger hooked to the vacuum line that feeds the boost actuator on the turbo itself. There's 3 rubber tubes running into it, and small 2-pin electrical fitting. I'll take a picture later and post it. Once he determined the fault code, the tech disconnected the electrical fitting and tested for 12 volts on the incoming wire fed from the opposite side of the engine, which is controlled by some module located on the boost hose next to the pressure sensor, per his diagnostic chart. He also measured across the pins of this "Pressure Converter" with an ohmmeter (disconnected from the wiring harness) and it showed 1 meg-ohms. Of course, a hundred ohms or so is what's needed to operated the little solenoid valve inside which regulates the vacuum feeding the piston pushing on the variable geometry nozzle inside the turbo (no waste gate on a Sprinter). I'm not sure if the trouble code would have reset itself to operate, but I'm guessing it would have resumed normal operation on the next starting cycle. Perhaps Doktor A can confirm that guess.

So if you have very little boost (a few PSI) and in LHM on a 2002 or 2003 ***and the scan tool is indicating the failure as "the vacuum controller for the turbo as open or shorted." - vic*** (I think it's a different actuator on 04's and later) that pressure-regulator could be the culprit. You need nothing more than a $20 meter from Home Depot to test it for incoming voltage and coil continuity, and replacement is a 5 minute stand-up job.

You really can't see the turbo linkage move, but I'm guessing you could use a hand vacuum pump hooked to the turbo control line and control boost at will by working the pump, much like working the vacuum advance on a spark engine. That would pretty much confirm the diagnosis.

JMS
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Bill Boyer

Re: [sprintervan] Re: turbo hose(s) replacement

On the early models, an electric valve apparently controls a vacuum servo that operates the vanes on the turbo -- later models use an electric actuator to directly control it.
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Stewart Ives

Re: [sprintervan] Re: turbo hose(s) replacement

Interesting what you find when you put that part # in google. Seems that part was also used on the 2002-2004 Jeep's with the diesel engines.

Man, that's a salty price on that piece.

Good luck.

stew
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Mike Sokol

Re: [sprintervan] Re: turbo hose(s) replacement

Hmmmm.... You mean I could have snitched one from my neighbor's jeep?

Go figure!

JMS
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It's too bad the Yahoo forum doesn't easily support this type of post to keep info available. vic
 

glasseye

Well-known member
This thread (and many others) might be particularly valuable to those experiencing Limp Mode while far from home without Internet access. A local disk file of the entire thread written to a laptop would prove useful for side-of-the-road diagnostics, but I see no way in the forum software to do this.

A search of the users forum on the vBulletin site revealed the following:



Is there a way to archive or export one particular thread to a flat file format, plain text?

Reply With Quote Reply With Quote
#
Mon 19th Nov '07 5:26pm #2
Steve Machol

Steve Machol is offline...

Not from within vB. It may be possible using a custom query or phpMyAdmin though.


Does this make sense to anyone? Can we figure out how to export threads as text files?
 

autostaretx

Erratic Member
Can we figure out how to export threads as text files?
If you simply tell your browser (i use Firefox) to save the page "as text", 99% of the markup is removed.

I just tried it on this thread... it took less than 5 minutes to remove most of the "overhead" with Notepad.
(the headers of the page, the redundant signature blocks, the footer material)

The "before" and "after" are in the attached zip file.
---dick
 

Attachments

glasseye

Well-known member
Yep, that worked. Thanks, Dick. :bow: I'd tried "save page", but didn't see "save page as .txt" :thinking:

These threads are so chock full of info, I'm sure they'll save someone's a$$ out there some day.
 

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