T21 Emissions Recall Notice

neelymoto

New member
Since when does GDE offer a tune for California vehicles?

If you can back that up, a lot of other people would be interested in the file :p
To clarify, GDE advised I should uninstall the GDE tune and reinstall the original factory ECU data before taking the sprinter to the dealer for the update. i am reluctant to do this, and still unclear on the need/benefits for a California vehicle since the recall prevents the GDE tune from being reinstalled to my knowledge.
Will the dealer detect the GDE tune during the recall work and somehow void any warranty work? .. Will the recall tune not work right with the GDE data installed? .. or was this just GDE's standard line that doesn't apply to California ... I still don't know.
 
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sikwan

06 T1N Can
Will the dealer detect the GDE tune during the recall work and somehow void and any warranty work?

On my printout, they did state the injector ID's. Whether they will do a checksum on the current loaded (GDE) tune, that's another story. No one has ever (not that I have come across) mentioned that they left the GDE tune installed before getting the update.



There shouldn't be any warranty left for such an old vehicle.
 

neelymoto

New member
.. No one has ever (not that I have come across) mentioned that they left the GDE tune installed before getting the update. ..
Well then, reinstalling the factory data must not be a big task. Not a tech giant here but I figured the recall was an erase and reinstall, but if its a patch over perhaps I should figure out how to uninstall the GDE tune .. regardless of the perceived risks??
 
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autostaretx

Erratic Member
Since it's a Recall, not a warranty issue, MB/Dodge shouldn't care what you've got in your ECU.
It's in their lap to bring the Sprinter's firmware to compliance with the emission regulations.

--dick
 

marklg

Well-known member
If you read the instructions you can find online for the dealers, they are told to download the PCM calibration software file and flash the powertrain and then run the reset air system adaptation routine. I don't know anything for sure, but most products I have created with flashable software have at least three areas in memory. There generally is the software code itself, which may be shared among different models. Then there is data specific to the characteristics of the individual model. I am guessing this is the "tune". Then there is data specific to the individual unit or vehicle. I am guessing this is what is generated by the adaptation routine. So, by my guess at least, the tune would be wiped out by the recall. I did not have it, so again, I don't know anything for sure. We would also wrap a CRC around the fixed data and check it at power up to make sure it was not tampered with. I expect that they are forced to do the same by the regulators.

After the recall, the dealer is instructed to check the EGR and air intake systems and perform a test drive. I believe the GDE tune disables the EGR, so I would guess they would find that.

The recall specifically returns the vehicle to compliance with emissions regulations. With the GDE tune it is not in compliance, which is why CA has outlawed it and fined them. Basically they define compliance as using the tested and accepted manufacturer's software, so a third party would have to submit their changes to California and undergo lots of testing and paperwork. My state, AZ only does an exhaust particulate test.

If anyone knows more, how are my guesses?

Regards,

Mark
 

Aqua Puttana

Poly - Thread Finder
Well then, reinstalling the factory data must not be a big task. Not a tech giant here but I figured the recall was an erase and reinstall, but if its a patch over perhaps I should figure out how to uninstall the GDE tune .. regardless of the perceived risks??
Aren't the perceived risks pretty ominous?

One possible scenario.
Assumption.
You will not be able to return to the T21 Recall status. Maybe you can return to the GDE saved pre-tune status if it will work after the T21 changes.

You restore your ECM to OEM with the GDE process available.
You have the T21 Recall performed. It is successful. You get the proper CA paperwork.
You use the GDE process to return to the GDE tune. It works. Hooray. You're back where you want be.

It fails.

You try to go back to pre-GDE OEM status. That fails because of the T21 changes. (GDE will not work with CA residents.)
Your Sprinter no longer operates properly.
You return to the dealership and claim the T21 Recall no longer works.
The dealership somehow discovers that the work that they just did was undone.

Will the Dodge dealership do the T21 recall for you again? Even if they will, do they need higher permission to do it?
Will they report the situation to the CA regulators to rescind the paperwork? They may be in violation of regulations if they don't report it.

:idunno:

It seems like some formidable unknowns are in the mix.

:2cents: vic
 

neelymoto

New member
If you read the instructions you can find online for the dealers, they are told to download the PCM calibration software file and flash the powertrain and then run the reset air system adaptation routine. I don't know anything for sure, but most products I have created with flashable software have at least three areas in memory. There generally is the software code itself, which may be shared among different models. Then there is data specific to the characteristics of the individual model. I am guessing this is the "tune". Then there is data specific to the individual unit or vehicle. I am guessing this is what is generated by the adaptation routine. So, by my guess at least, the tune would be wiped out by the recall. I did not have it, so again, I don't know anything for sure. We would also wrap a CRC around the fixed data and check it at power up to make sure it was not tampered with. I expect that they are forced to do the same by the regulators.

After the recall, the dealer is instructed to check the EGR and air intake systems and perform a test drive. I believe the GDE tune disables the EGR, so I would guess they would find that.

The recall specifically returns the vehicle to compliance with emissions regulations. With the GDE tune it is not in compliance, which is why CA has outlawed it and fined them. Basically they define compliance as using the tested and accepted manufacturer's software, so a third party would have to submit their changes to California and undergo lots of testing and paperwork. My state, AZ only does an exhaust particulate test.

If anyone knows more, how are my guesses?

Regards,

Mark
You lost me in the first paragraph at the 3 memories, but is it fair to say you think it would probably wipe out the GDE tune and may not pass the EGR test if it doesn't - leading to problems?
 

neelymoto

New member
Aren't the perceived risks pretty ominous?

One possible scenario.
Assumption.
You will not be able to return to the T21 Recall status. Maybe you can return to the GDE saved pre-tune status if it will work after the T21 changes.

You restore your ECM to OEM with the GDE process available.
You have the T21 Recall performed. It is successful. You get the proper CA paperwork.
You use the GDE process to return to the GDE tune. It works. Hooray. You're back where you want be.

It fails.

You try to go back to pre-GDE OEM status. That fails because of the T21 changes. (GDE will not work with CA residents.)
Your Sprinter no longer operates properly.
You return to the dealership and claim the T21 Recall no longer works.
The dealership somehow discovers that the work that they just did was undone.

Will the Dodge dealership do the T21 recall for you again? Even if they will, do they need higher permission to do it?
Will they report the situation to the CA regulators to rescind the paperwork? They may be in violation of regulations if they don't report it.

:idunno:

It seems like some formidable unknowns are in the mix.

:2cents: vic
Thanks. I hope to not be in a position to foul up the recall work, before or after it is performed. Sounds like you would return it to oem before the recall and not try to reinstall the GDE after the T21 recall on a California vehicle - which makes sense to me and I would not do unless I had some evidence GDE works things out in Calif.
 

marklg

Well-known member
You lost me in the first paragraph at the 3 memories, but is it fair to say you think it would probably wipe out the GDE tune and may not pass the EGR test if it doesn't - leading to problems?
I don't see how they could implement the recall if the EGR was not working. They are supposed to test it as part of the recall. I can confirm my EGR control value moves around while driving.

GDE, by definition, defeats emission controls. California especially frowns upon that and I see no way they would be able to "work things out" with California. Someone recently posted a link to the CA regulations. No one but a big company would be able to comply. They have to prove that it passes emissions and it will still pass emissions years later. That requires lots of testing, including extended life testing. Only a company who builds a bunch of prototypes and runs them on the track for a year before they sell the vehicle would have a chance of complying. GDE got fined $50k by California for tampering with emissions.

https://ww3.arb.ca.gov/enf/casesett/green_diesel_engineering_llc.htm


Regards,

Mark
 

ions82

Member
GDE got fined $50k by California for tampering with emissions.


Regards,

Mark

Ah. I wondered why their tune costs as much as it does. :smirk:


To uneducated me, much of the emissions stuff for diesels seems like nonsense. I'm curious if CA emissions authorities did a test to see how the stock tune compares to the GDE in terms of emissions per gallon. If it's the same, wouldn't the system with better fuel economy be better for the environment (as less fossil fuel is being used/processed/transported.)? I've wondered the same thing about the whole Volkswagen debacle. I can't imagine the emissions from GDE tune (or Volkswagons) exceeds the improvement in fuel economy.
 

marklg

Well-known member
Ah. I wondered why their tune costs as much as it does. :smirk:


To uneducated me, much of the emissions stuff for diesels seems like nonsense. I'm curious if CA emissions authorities did a test to see how the stock tune compares to the GDE in terms of emissions per gallon. If it's the same, wouldn't the system with better fuel economy be better for the environment (as less fossil fuel is being used/processed/transported.)? I've wondered the same thing about the whole Volkswagen debacle. I can't imagine the emissions from GDE tune (or Volkswagons) exceeds the improvement in fuel economy.
The way these things work is the regulators consider any change to be, by definition, non compliant. You as the manufacturer are responsible, at your expense, to prove it meets the standards. That involves a lot of testing, way too expensive for a small company. Someone posted a link to the California emissions rules and regulations. I can't find the posting now. It's an absurd amount of stuff to meet.

Regards,

Mark
 

autostaretx

Erratic Member
To uneducated me, much of the emissions stuff for diesels seems like nonsense. I'm curious if CA emissions authorities did a test to see how the stock tune compares to the GDE in terms of emissions per gallon. If it's the same, wouldn't the system with better fuel economy be better for the environment (as less fossil fuel is being used/processed/transported.)? I've wondered the same thing about the whole Volkswagen debacle. I can't imagine the emissions from GDE tune (or Volkswagons) exceeds the improvement in fuel economy.
Both the much-maligned DEF and EGR systems are to prevent/remove nitrous oxide (NOx) molecules from the exhaust stream. A prime component of "photochemical smog".
NOx is primarily generated by "burning lean" (high combustion temperatures).

"Better fuel economy" doesn't factor into it. (in fact, many "improved fuel economy" gadgets do drift towards a leaner mixture).

Gasoline engines have throttle plates which restrict the airflow, thus mostly avoiding the "lean burn" situation. The T1N diesels don't have throttle plates, so the EGR is "it" in terms of trying to avoid leaning out. The exhaust that's being recirculated is oxygen-depleted, so it doesn't support NOx production.

--dick
 
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ions82

Member
So, I decided to do my own T21 recall. The service departments at the Dodge dealerships here in Albuquerque are worthless. I bought a cluster from an '06 on fleaBay. My friend has a C3 programmer that we plan to use. The only "programming" the cluster needs is the entry of current mileage, right? I assume it doesn't need to be "paired" like some of the other electrical components. Hopefully, it will fix my battery drain and turn off that pesky CEL. The plan is to add cruise control and remove the FedEx speed limiter (62 mph) while we're at it.

Are there any pitfalls I should watch out for while swapping the cluster?
 

sikwan

06 T1N Can
Are there any pitfalls I should watch out for while swapping the cluster?

You're treading on a new frontier. I don't think any DIY has done this, except maybe Sprinter Techs that have gone through the recall process and I don't think they read everything here.
 

Oroskenneth

New member
I took my 2006 sprinter in for the recall , I’ve had a few incidents after getting it done, and I don’t know if there connected. 1. Windows failing if left half way down both side will not roll up. 2. Last night I got home and The key would not disengage after put in park, and then proceed to go back into drive and reshift to park then I was able to turn off engine and remove key. Anyone think these issues are related , it seem to be coming from under the driver seat, where I think the work on the recall done, To get the windows to work I pulled the number 4 fuse and put it back in. And the windows work work again.
 
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marklg

Well-known member
So, I decided to do my own T21 recall. The service departments at the Dodge dealerships here in Albuquerque are worthless. I bought a cluster from an '06 on fleaBay. My friend has a C3 programmer that we plan to use. The only "programming" the cluster needs is the entry of current mileage, right? I assume it doesn't need to be "paired" like some of the other electrical components. Hopefully, it will fix my battery drain and turn off that pesky CEL. The plan is to add cruise control and remove the FedEx speed limiter (62 mph) while we're at it.

Are there any pitfalls I should watch out for while swapping the cluster?
I found the recall instructions here:

https://f01.justanswer.com/jhook1398/b9680c9d-e2ae-49b2-8d60-af6cf1055469_10.pdf

How will you get the Firmware for the ECU? The instructions say to go to the DealerCONNECT website and need a User ID, Password and Dealer Code, then you have to enter the VIN to get the firmware file. Or, did I miss something and the ECU has already been reprogrammed?

I'm not sure there is any programming of the Cluster, just swapping in a new one. I'm not sure where the mileage is stored or if there is any mating.

Regards,

Mark
 

marklg

Well-known member
I took my 2006 sprinter in for the recall , I’ve had a few incidents after getting it done, and I don’t know if there connected. 1. Windows failing if left half way down both side will not roll up. 2. Last night I got home and The key would not disengage after put in park, and then proceed to go back into drive and reshift to park then I was able to turn off engine and remove key. Anyone think these issues are related , it seem to be coming from under the driver seat, where I think the work on the recall done, To get the windows to work I pulled the number 4 fuse and put it back in. And the windows work work again.
See my previous post for a link to the recall instructions. They only connect to the ODB2 port. I don't see anything they do under the driver's seat. Your issues sure seem like an electrical problem though. Do you have a Sprinter specific scanner to look for codes?

See my post #90 here:

https://sprinter-source.com/forum/showthread.php?t=70872&page=9

I suppose it is possible that the issue with shifting and key removal could be due to codes stored in the Transmission or Selector that are generated when the recall is done. The instructions do not say to clear the codes in all of the other modules. I did that myself with the AP200.

Regards,

Mark
 

neelymoto

New member
I’m at Folsom Lake Dodge getting it done right now. I’m in the waiting room very professional, I’ll keep you posted. Free Starbucks Coffee, life is great
Any final conclusions on the Folsom Lake Dodge recall experience? Were they any help in addressing the subsequent electrical issues?
 

glas1700

Member
We took our 07 Navion to Cole Dodge in SLO, about a four hour drive from the SF peninsula and turned it into an enjoyable camping trip. Hilltop Dodge in Richmond was much closer, but they said it might have to be kept overnight. We decided that two round trips to Richmond wasn't in the cards.

We took it in at 7:45 on Monday and it was ready to go around 11 am. The tech, AJ, found transmission fluid wicking up the cable to the TCM, even though the connector sleeve was changed years ago for one with the new o-rings. The labor cost was reasonable, so I decided to have them fix it instead of driving home and doing it myself.

AJ has worked at the dealership ever since Dodge started selling Sprinters and he seems to be very knowledgeable. He and I discussed other possible issues and he mentioned that the serpentine belt was walking slightly on one of the pulleys. I'll inspect this myself and change the idler pulleys if required.

The dog friendly waiting area is huge with a TV on one side of a wall and magazines on the other. There's also a computer room and a kids play room. Coffee and bottled water are free and there's also a small bakery next door with pastries and any type of coffee you desire.

We stayed for two nights at El Chorro campground, a SLO county park with full hookups that's close to HWY 1. It's about a 15 min. drive from there to the dealership. The park also has a dog play area, a 9 hole golf course and a small restaurant.
 

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