Rumble Strip Noise Transmission Drive Train Shudder

Aqua Puttana

Poly - Thread Finder
I know this is yet another thread about the NAG1 transmission RSN and shudder... shutter to some, but I figured maybe it would help to have a quick answer for anyone searching for info and possible solution.

I'm embarrassed to admit that I actually spent the $197.00 for the 9 quarts of Sprinter/Crossfire Transmission Fluid, filter, gasket, and transmission connector, but against good forum advice given here procrastinated in actually doing the change. When I purchased my 2004 it had 172,000 miles. I put about 8,000 more miles on it before changing the fluid.

The following thread has all the info you should need for the T1N change.

https://sprinter-source.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2557

Before I finally did the change the drive train was doing a shudder in the area of 1800 - 2000 rpm that had me worried I might have a drive shaft universal or other non-transmission related problem. I could minimize it by shifting or using throttle, but it would return. It was particularly there when I was towing my 3000# or so boat/trailer. The reason I mention this is that the sound and vibration was nothing at all like the rumble strip noise I found described in other threads, it was a much more heavy and shudder like symptom. As I have no maintenance records form the previous owner I have no idea what fluid was in the transmission or how old it was. The transmission and torque converter plugs came out fairly easily so I'm quite certain the fluid had been changed before.

Anyway, the reason for this post is to point out that my drive train had a heavy shudder that went away completely after I changed the filter and used the Sprinter/Crossfire fluid. I simply drained the pan and torque converter. I didn't try to drain hoses or get fancy. I considered dropping the valve assembly for sensor cleaning, but after some comments about difficulty in doing that task lying on your back I decided to wait until next time. At 182,000 miles I still have a slight RSN here and there at times, but nothing even approaching what it was prior to changing the fluid.

Now my problem is to decide what the next change interval should be and convince myself to spend the money and take the time away from more pleasant activities. I hope I'm lucky and didn't shorten the life of my transmission with my earlier procrastination. Hope this helps.

Added: If a fluid change doesn't improve your transmission operation you may want to try an additive.
...

Also once you are done add a can of BG's ATC plus transmission additive. Any abnormal burnishing of the lock up internal clutch will be smoothed out by this stuff.
All the best
Dennis
Is MB 236.14 fluid necessary for T1N's?
...

A personal comment about T1N NAG1 MB spec fluid.
I was once a proponent of MB 236.14 fluid being the only choice for the T1N NAG1 transmission. I've since come to believe that with a reasonable OCI 236.10, 236.12, or 236.14 is fine. One fact. Because the 236.14 fluid is completely backward compatible, there is no longer reason for manufacturers to offer or maintain officially approved 236.10 or 236.12 fluid. So if you stay with MB officially approved fluids, it will likely be 236.14 spec. MB236.14 was actually formulated for newer transmissions, but is backward compatible for .10 and .12 spec.

:cheers: vic
 
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jdcaples

Not Suitable w/220v Gen
Did you use MB236.10, MB236.12 or the newer MB236.14 fluid?

-Jon
 

rlent

New member
Now my problem is to decide what the next change interval should be and convince myself to spend the money and take the time away from more pleasant activities.
Alot could depend on various factors (how you drive, actual time as opposed to mileage, vehicle loading, ambient temps, etc) but without additional cooling (and filtration) beyond stock, I certainly don't think I'd consider more than the recommended change interval, which is 60K miles.
 

talkinghorse43

Active member
Never felt shudder with my '02, but have had RSN (stick-slip of the torque converter clutch during lockup) off and on (mostly on) for the 159k miles thus far. Noticed that the RSN would disappear at ~40k miles into the change, which I interpret as a reduction in the coefficient of friction of the plates in the torque converter clutch (allowing the desired slip, but not stick-slip). RSN has always come back with fresh fluid, which means to me that fresh fluid increases that coefficient of friction again. My first change was "early" ('02 recommendation was once at 80k miles) at 55k miles due to a leak. Second change was "early" (by that time the interval recommended was every 60k miles) too at 111k because I did it myself and it was summertime. RSN is gone now and I'm due again at 171k miles. I think that if I let it go to a longer interval, I would probably experience shudder (probably stick-slip of the locked clutches) at some point when the coefficient of friction gets low enough. Seems to me the recommended interval of 60k miles (in addendum to '06 owner's manual) is about right. I know Doktor A recommends a 40k mile change interval, but if I did that, I'd never get to enjoy those ~20k mile shots of RSN-free operation.
 
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Aqua Puttana

Poly - Thread Finder
Jon,
Uh..h... I don't know?

*******
Added 20161008:
I've since been convinced that whether MB236.10, MB236.12, or MB236.14 fluid is used any of them will cure a shudder problem that is related to old, spent fluid. The newer spec fluid may help with RSN, but in my mind that is even questionable eg. MB236.10 vs MB236.14 fluid. The MB236.14 fluid was developed for a newer/different transmission than the NAG1. MB236.14 fluid is backward compatible to the NAG1, not required. (Similar to MB229.5 engine oil and MB228.5 engine oil.)
*******

Since you asked I just went out to the garage to see what the two containers I had left said on them. The MT's went to recycle. I had one container that was purchased earlier and used to top off a while ago. They both say Crossfire/Sprinter.

The partial has "05127382AA" on the front. "2000 - 2003 DaimlerChrysler Motor Company LLC" on the back. No MB2XX.XX anywhere I see. I presume that's the old stuff (MB-236.10?) and what I had first for top off because I used 8 full quarts to replenish after the drain.

The unopened container has "MB-236.12" and "05127382AB" on the front, "MB-236.12" top right corner and "2000 - 2005 DaimlerChrysler Motors Company LLC" low on the back.

As I purchased it from the same dealer I could have been given a mix, but I think they were all the "AB" MB-236.12 variety. I didn't even to think to double check. I think I was in shock for a while after the quoted $14+ per quart price. Should I just recycle the "AA" variety or is it still ok for topping off? Added: MB236.10 is fine to use!!!

****************

Edit:
My knowledge base has since expanded, I would no longer be concerned at all that MB236.12 and the original spec MB236.10 may have been intermixed. As the original Operator Manual is always the official reference, there is technically nothing wrong with using MB236.10 spec ATFIII fluid in a T1N NAG1 transmission.

So I just looked in my [2011 NCV3] manual and it shows 236.10 or 236.12 as the recommended oil. The acceptance of .10 makes it easier to find for sure.
Not to rain on your parade as to MB236.10 spec fluid...

Fact.
Finding an MB officially approved MB236.10 spec transmission fluid in N. America will not be easy. If you want to stay with the officially approved fluids most will be MB236.12 or MB236.14 spec.

Opinion.
My 2004 and other T1N Sprinters with the NAG1 transmission came with this transmission fluid maintenance information. (The red arrow was for another discussion.)

2004ManualOilSpec.jpg


2004 Manual said:
Additional Maintenance Work

Automatic transmission once only at 80,000 miles/
128000km [Schedule has subsequently been modified.]
...
2006ManualOilSpec.jpg

The once only at 80,000 miles and never again would take a really good fluid to go the distance.

The general opinion of most Sprinter-source members is that the "once only" is not good in practice. A 40 - 60,000 transmission OCI seems reasonable.

If one accepts that a big factor of the MB spec fluid was the long service change interval, then maybe with a shorter interval many other ATF III fluids will give good service.

With a frequent OCI (40 - 60k) Valvoline Maxlife, BG, Amsoil, or other good quality ATF III formulations are probably just fine. Many posts indicate that North American Sprinters are using other than MB spec transmission fluid with good results.

I have no data, or transmission oil testing information.

:cheers: vic

P.S. - Researching some of the Sprinter-source threads for ATF information reminded me that my opinions about Sprinter fluids have been well... somewhat fluid over the years. Staying with MB spec is usually the easy conservative (often more expensive) approach.
****************

rlent, talkinghorse43,
60,000 sounds reasonable for my use and expected miles per year. Thanks. vic


Did you use MB236.10, MB236.12 or the newer MB236.14 fluid?

-Jon
 
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jdcaples

Not Suitable w/220v Gen

Aqua Puttana

Poly - Thread Finder
The "AA" will certainly not go into my Sprinter NAG1 transmission. 20171218 - That was then. Now I would use MB236.10 "AA" without a second thought. From all the info I get from here and Sprintervan I can't imagine successful DIY on my Sprinter in an information vacuum.Thanks for the links. vic
These are the three postings that come to mind when I read your posting, regarding ATF specifications:

Andy: http://www.sprinter-source.com/forum/showpost.php?p=31083&postcount=11
Richard: http://www.sprinter-source.com/forum/showpost.php?p=38439&postcount=1
Andy: http://www.sprinter-source.com/forum/showpost.php?p=31110&postcount=12

I'd recycle the open container of MB236.10, if it were me.

-Jon
 
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05highroof

New member
I bought my 05 used with well over 100k on the clock and changed the trans fluid at around 140k presumably for the first time. I used Redline ATF. My RSN went away almost completely. That was over 10k miles ago and the RSN is now back and is as bad as it was before I changed the fluid.I don't haul any heavy loads with my truck just my tools that way about 300 lbs +/- and the occasional Dirt bike. I drive the truck like there's n egg shell under my foot.I wonder if the OEM fluid would help keep the RSN away longer or if this is the norm for a Nag1 in this condition?
 

talkinghorse43

Active member
I bought my 05 used with well over 100k on the clock and changed the trans fluid at around 140k presumably for the first time. I used Redline ATF. My RSN went away almost completely. That was over 10k miles ago and the RSN is now back and is as bad as it was before I changed the fluid.I don't haul any heavy loads with my truck just my tools that way about 300 lbs +/- and the occasional Dirt bike. I drive the truck like there's n egg shell under my foot.I wonder if the OEM fluid would help keep the RSN away longer or if this is the norm for a Nag1 in this condition?
Except for periods near the end of each change, RSN is normal for me and I have only used OEM fluids.
 

abittenbinder

Doktor A (864-623-9110)
I know this is yet another thread about the NAG1 transmission RSN and shudder

Before I finally did the change the drive train was doing a shudder in the area of 1800 - 2000 rpm that had me worried I might have a drive shaft universal or other non-transmission related problem.

Anyway, the reason for this post is to point out that my drive train had a heavy shudder that went away completely after I changed the filter and used the Sprinter/Crossfire fluid.
Just to help clarify the distinction-Aqua P had the classic shudder that appears under load, at freeway speeds, with "overdue for replacement" ATF.

It can be alarming and mimic other expensive failure modes.

Not to be confused with RSN which typically occurs at low load , especially "eggshell on throttle" driving style. Doktor A
 

05highroof

New member
Just to help clarify the distinction-Aqua P had the classic shudder that appears under load, at freeway speeds, with "overdue for replacement" ATF.

It can be alarming and mimic other expensive failure modes.

Not to be confused with RSN which typically occurs at low load , especially "eggshell on throttle" driving style. Doktor A
So maybe I should break the egg shell?:laughing:
 

jacfrost

New member
Let me get it straight. The "Classic Shudder" is different that the Rumble strip noise. I have the exact same problem as Aqua Putta----I had my Transmission fluid changed but the shudder remains? I have a 2002 25000 with 152k on it.
 

Aqua Puttana

Poly - Thread Finder
I'm far from an expert, but so you don't feel ignored.... What transmission fluid was used? As you can see from the above posts I learned that all OEM Crossfire/Sprinter fluid is not created equal. As I said previously I have no idea what tranny fluid was in my Sprinter so brand/type may have contributed to my problem. Maybe that is a factor for you? Hope this helps. vic
 

abittenbinder

Doktor A (864-623-9110)
Just to help clarify the distinction-Aqua P had the classic shudder that appears under load, at freeway speeds, with "overdue for replacement" ATF.

It can be alarming and mimic other expensive failure modes.

Not to be confused with RSN which typically occurs at low load , especially "eggshell on throttle" driving style. Doktor A
To help further clarify the shudder-Keep in mind the TCC (torque converter clutch) in the NAG1 never (ever!) fully locks the torque converter. The clutch is either in disengaged mode or in a slip mode (PWM duty cycled solenoid controlled) that varies between 5-95% locking. The lack of full lock dampens engine pulsations. But it also allows for the high load shudder when fluid quality is compromised. Doktor A
 

rlent

New member
Wow ... thanks for this little tidbit of data Doktor A .... it helps explain alot ... I had assumed that being a clutch the TCC was either disengaged or completely engaged ...... bit never just partially engaged.
 

talkinghorse43

Active member
To help further clarify the shudder-Keep in mind the TCC (torque converter clutch) in the NAG1 never (ever!) fully locks the torque converter. The clutch is either in disengaged mode or in a slip mode (PWM duty cycled solenoid controlled) that varies between 5-95% locking. The lack of full lock dampens engine pulsations. But it also allows for the high load shudder when fluid quality is compromised. Doktor A
This doesn't agree with the description of the operation of the TCC presented in the '03 service manual. It describes 4 output logic states and one of those is full EMCC (electronically modulated converter clutch). Full EMCC is described as:

"During Full EMCC operation, the TCM increases the TCC Solenoid (duty cycle) to full ON after Partial EMCC control brings the engine speed within the desired slip range of transmission input speed relative to engine rpm."

Also, when describing the TCC, this manual says:

"The result of this engagement is a direct 1:1 mechanical link between the engine and the transmission."
 

abittenbinder

Doktor A (864-623-9110)
"brings the engine speed within the desired slip range of transmission input speed relative to engine rpm."

Also, when describing the TCC, this manual says:

"The result of this engagement is a direct 1:1 mechanical link between the engine and the transmission."
The first service manual statement is correct when it mentions a "desired slip range". The second statement is incorrect.

I have seen frequent references to the 5%-95% variable slip rate in MBenz NAG1 transmission service literature and have confirmed this with DRBIII monitored road test observations.

The TCC never locks fully and the moderate load, freeway speed, spent fluid shudder is the result. Doktor A
 

abittenbinder

Doktor A (864-623-9110)
Wow ... thanks for this little tidbit of data Doktor A .... it helps explain alot ... I had assumed that being a clutch the TCC was either disengaged or completely engaged ...... bit never just partially engaged.
If the TCC was either "disengaged or completely engaged" you wouldn't have RSN. But you would have a maddening, early GM style, torque converter lock/unlock action at freeway speeds when going up and down hills. Doktor A
 
I seem to have developed this "Classic Shudder" at about 2000 rpm under load (ie: climbing a hill at highway speed), you can even feel it in the steering wheel. I just did trany service about 4K miles ago at 55K , converter and pan/filter , didn't drain cooler, used Bilstein Febi #27001, level is correct to +/- 2mm , put in 7 1/2 lt.. Could the residual OEM fluid cause this? The shudder/vibration is as bad as a bad motor mount or exhaust system frame contact. I also seem to have a gear change slip on light acceleration, 2nd to 3rd most noticeably, that you can see as a momentary rpm increase up- down-lower on the tach ?????????????

Bob
 

abittenbinder

Doktor A (864-623-9110)
I seem to have developed this "Classic Shudder" at about 2000 rpm under load (ie: climbing a hill at highway speed), you can even feel it in the steering wheel. I just did trany service about 4K miles ago at 55K , converter and pan/filter , didn't drain cooler, used Bilstein Febi #27001, level is correct to +/- 2mm , put in 7 1/2 lt.. Could the residual OEM fluid cause this? The shudder/vibration is as bad as a bad motor mount or exhaust system frame contact. I also seem to have a gear change slip on light acceleration, 2nd to 3rd most noticeably, that you can see as a momentary rpm increase up- down-lower on the tach ?????????????
Bob
By definition- "Classic Shudder" is cured by an overdue fluid change. If symptoms disappear with fresh, approved fluid then you had Classic Shudder.

Considering that you changed most all the fluid I do not suspect residual fluid is the cause of your shudder.

Did your shudder begin before the fluid change? How about the long duration 2-3rd shift-did that begin before the fluid change? Doktor A
 

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