Noblemercedes warning: Change Turbo Inlet Seal every time disturbed

CJPJ

2008 3500 170"ext. 3.0 V6 OM642.993
I gave it a look in between, and did not see anything obvious.

remember the other end of the turbo inlet tube is clamped to the air filter housing.
Simple to test: • thump the inlet tube. A proper installed / true to form inlet tube will thump like a ripe melon. Just putting your hands on the tube can indicate if both its ends are firmly attached or not.
 

Motoheadz

New member
I had a fuel leak within 5K Kim's of purchase, had it fixed under warranty. A few days later I heard "air blow-off" sound, drove it a few Kms home. At low speed. Towed to dealer again. Said they left a clamp loose. Fixed it. I never questioned it. Now I inspect at 90k and see the turbos shot. So I guess I've driven possibly slightly under power for 90k kms, faced with the same turbo problem as you. Can't help but to think they didn't clamp it right back in 2011 And never owned up to it. Likely would have been on the dealers dime as MB wouldn't reimburse them if they determined it was an improperly installed seal.
 

mikeme

2015 LTV IB: 2015 3500 V6
one other item which may impact the seal failure. I had finished a DPF regen a bit before the failure. I monitor an exhaust temp with a scangauge (EGT2). normal temp around 300f, 400 under heavy load. 600f plus during DPF regen. (I see these every 500miles or so) noted one on the drive, completed and temp back to normal, stopped for ten minutes or so, and the failure happened a mile or so into the following drive. (i noticed the noise coming to a traffic light. thought it was another vehicle at first.)

my thought is that the turbo (and seal) could have been a little hotter than normal during the stop. not a primary cause, but straw that....
 
Hi, Mike, Are you sure that the temps you're watching aren't Centigrade?
I totally think that heat is possibly the big problem with this seal. With a couple of variables to consider, when the engine is running, the intake (cold) side of the turbo where the seal is located is kept well below block temp by the flow of cool/clean intake air, all is good. However, when you shut the engine off some of the heat stored in the hot (exhaust) side of the turbo inherently passes to the cold side. (Thermal equilibrium) This is where the variables get interesting.

Long trips with engine shut off @ turbo temps under 400F that seal will likely be fine until you change it again the next time you change your fuel filter. Lets go straight to worst case for making the point.

Short, frequent trips with no concern of turbo temp at shut down, easily could unknowingly be @700F maybe more. Add to that unawareness of most drivers the good chance of shutting down during a re-gen with turbo temp of possibly over 1300F, in either of these scenarios we can see temps increasing on the cold (seal) side climbing way beyond the limits of this seal and happening many more times due to the use of the vehicle. Of course adding a little engine oil from the crankcase vent in to the area only makes it tougher on the seal.

Off topic of the seal, but also important is the damage being done to the small amount of stagnate oil residing in the turbo during hot shutdown seeing temps beyond design limits. (fried!) And again it stands to reason the impact is increased by the frequency.

Further justification to the wisdom of monitoring our exhaust temps and especially taking note of the re-gen cycles.
 

mikeme

2015 LTV IB: 2015 3500 V6
Right you are. degrees C. (just took a look and parked the temp is 30, and there is no danger of frost today)

I corrected two posts back.
 

Neil2

Neil
True that. A firm that actually had good owner service (www) would get my loyalty. Was just trying to view/price a MOPAR EGR tube and it was exasperating on their site.
 

Pneumo

Member
I found a 1 inch tear around my seal and have had no luck finding a mopar part number. I'm on the road and not so near any mercedes dealerships and the dodge shop hasn't been able to find the part either. Is this a mercedes only part, or am I just failing to find it? I don't have an address I can ship to here aside from general delivery, and I've already been in this area with car trouble for over a week. Is it safe to drive with this seal, given that I replace it asap?
 

Cheyenne

UK 2004 T1N 313CDi
I

Is it safe to drive with this seal, given that I replace it asap?
From what I've read on here, NO!

Reason: In case it gets sucked into the turbo and results in further, costly, damage.

Keith.
 

bcislander

'07 Mercedes-badged Dodge
I found a 1 inch tear around my seal and have had no luck finding a mopar part number. I'm on the road and not so near any mercedes dealerships and the dodge shop hasn't been able to find the part either. Is this a mercedes only part, or am I just failing to find it? I don't have an address I can ship to here aside from general delivery, and I've already been in this area with car trouble for over a week. Is it safe to drive with this seal, given that I replace it asap?
The Mercedes part # for the seal for my 2007 is A 017 997 04 45. IIRC, the same seals were used in both 2007 & 2008.
 

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Pneumo

Member
The Mercedes part # for the seal for my 2007 is A 017 997 04 45. IIRC, the same seals were used in both 2007 & 2008.
You are corret, both utilize the same seal. I was just hoping that Mopar had a part # for this part which would enable me to purchase it locally instead of having to overnight to this small town. All my research points to that not beinf the case however, unfortunately. Idparts overnight air is $38, not including the seal price which is a hard pill to swallow. Ah well, better to replace it than nuke my turbo I suppose.

Thanks all.
 

mikeme

2015 LTV IB: 2015 3500 V6
Mike, first I want to say I am so sorry this happened to your van, next I want to thank you for your original comments about changing your fuel filter. I did my 2015 today and your posts were very helpful, especially the pics of the omega shaped clamp.

So here are a few things for the future, when I saw that your seal stuck on the turbo (remembered others saying the same thing) I ran my heat gun on the turbo inlet for a few minutes and even though it would not budge before it it now slid off easily and left the turbo neck completely clean and stayed in the plastic clean air hose.
I too considered re-using the seal, but decided to use the new one I had ordered thinking "why carry it around?"
The next time you take this apart and look at how the seal needs to be worked into place into the female plastic part you will be able to see that just pushing it back onto the seal while still stuck on the turbo probably did not fully engage the step on the OD of the seal.
:cheers: I literally just came in and saw this, so thanks again and know that I am bummed for you.

And a huge thanks to all that Noblemercedes adds to this (and other) groups!
"the seal needs to be worked into place into the female plastic part"

This, I think was the source of my problem.

I got my hands on some (probably bootleg) MB tech data, and there is a note:

The sealing ring must be inserted into the air intake hose first, to ensure that the sealing ring is not crushed. Parts of the crushed sealing ring may otherwise be sucked into the compressor wheel of the turbocharger severely damaged.​
 

Flagster

Member
My dealer did this at our 40K B service. Said it was now part of their normal maintenance procedure with disruption of the seal. 40.00 charged...
 

DSpencer

New member
I'm really confused about how this happens. When properly installed the seal is on the outside if the turbo intake, in between it and the plastic pipe. If the seal is in place and clamped properly I don't see how it is possible for it to migrate in such a way that it gets sucked into the intake. The only thing I can envision is two possible scenarios... one is that upon installation the gasket somehow gets shoved out of position and into the turbo intake, but this doesn't seem very easy to do. The other is that due to excessive tightening of the clamp the gasket gets cut in half, allowing the now-separated trailing portion (with the lip) to get sucked in. I think this is what happened with the early design because that had a thin portion that was easy to damage, but updated replacement that has been out for many years is much thicker and not really prone to this. All in all a mystery to me.
I stumbled on this thread and my reaction is the same as this persons, none of this "problem" makes any sense to me. I have had that orange seal off and on multiple times. I have attempted to upload four JPEGs of photos I took of the relevant parts. The inlet tube to the turbocharger has a lip on the end that fits into the none-ribbed region on the inside of the orange seal. Clearly you have to put the seal first on the inlet pipe and then install the air hose over it because doing it the other way will very likely damage (or tear up) the silicone seal as it scapes over that inlet pipe lip as it is forced onto the turbo inlet. That lip is like all similar features on such pipes, namely to provide a safety to prevent the seal (and hose) slipping off because the band clamp, properly tightened, shouldn't permit that. The orange seal does slightly fold over the end of the turbo inlet tube when the connection is properly clamped together. My fourth photo (of the end of the air hose that goes over the seal on the turbo inlet; focus not good, sorry) shows the shelf inside the air hose that presses against that foldover on the orange seal, forcing it against the end of the turbo inlet pipe when the parts are properly assembled. The orange seal is a tiny bit wider/deeper than the air hose can accommodate so when the air hose and seal are installed properly on the turbo inlet, and the ring clamp tightened, a very tiny part of the orange seal can still be seen next to the turbo housing. I also cannot see how, at least with the setup on my OM642, you could tighten the band clamp so far that you would cut the orange seal inside. The air hose pipe is a fairly rigid plastic and not very compressible.
With the whole setup put together as I think it is clear it has to be done just how can some or all of that orange seal be sucked into the turbo? The physics doesn't add up. The only force that could pull the seal into the inner turbo inlet is vacuum and there is virtually no vacuum at the turbo inlet, unless I suppose your air filter is really blocked up. It is not possible to actually measure the vacuum right at the turbo inlet but I did measure just downstream of the air filter element by removing the small air pressure sensor on the air filter housing and connecting a vacuum gauge there. Now you could argue that the turbo inlet could have a little higher vacuum than where I measured, the problem is there was no measurable vacuum at the port I used (and although that was at idle it would only be about 5 or 6 times that at engine red-line, so at best slightly above zero). You also have to consider how much exposed surface area there is of the orange seal on the turbo inlet (with the air hose clamped over the seal), obviously at the turbo housing end. That area is where any vacuum inside the turbo inlet would be exerting force to pull the seal in, and the necessary vacuum to have any effect would have to be really high. Now obviously any shards of the orange seal that were created during improper assembly would be drawn by air flow into the turbo blades and cause a mess but nothing else makes any sense. Normally the orange seal is more or less dry but the crankcase ventilation hose joins the air hose just before the turbo inlet and you will find a drop or two of oil in the CCV hose but in my experience it doesn't seem to get up to the orange seal so that shouldn't be a factor. I admit that I have at times been tempted to put a light coating of the old classic black Permatex Form-A-Gasket #2 (non-drying) on the orange seal but decided that was unnecessary and would introduce a factor that I didn't need to contend with; my '08 Sprinter is enough of an ongoing project and I certainly don't need any extra aggravation.
 

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DSpencer, thanks for the photos of your orange seal. The newer style black seal has an added external square boss located in the same area where your orange seal folds over the turbo inlet slightly. This square boss on the outside of the black seal heads into the plastic air supply tube first, and must be worked into its corresponding groove first. It gets somewhat locked in position in the plastic tube once the boss and groove are engaged, but it would be pretty unlikely, maybe impossible to properly engage if the black seal was installed onto the turbo inlet tube first. It needs to be able to slightly flex inward for the larger OD of the square boss to make it "home" without damage.

Given the way these seals tend to get a little stuck to the aluminum turbo inlet I suspect the earlier orange seal's design is more tolerant to the plastic air pipe being turned to the side or removed without damaging the seal.

But the newer black sealing being "locked" into the plastic pipe you could see where turning the pipe could damage the seal. Or if someone that had worked with the orange seals pulled the plastic pipe off leaving the black seal stuck to the turbo inlet might not be aware of the new external boss needing to go into the plastic first.

Pretty simple stuff but at the same time plenty of room for confusion, even by MB technicians. There have been at least a dozen cases of turbo destruction that I have personally read about.
 

smiller

2008 View J (2007 NCV3 3500)
FWIW the current orange seal is now solid with no ribbing at all, pretty much a thick hunk of silicone. Seems just about impossible for it to split unless heavily abused.
 

PermaHeretic

2009 MWB standard roof
Does anyone know if this seal is likely to give rise to a P2263 error code?
 

mikeme

2015 LTV IB: 2015 3500 V6









I took these when changing my fuel filter last month.

the inlet tube as shown was installed by the dealer tech as part of my turbo replacement. (The inlet tube comes with a seal installed)

the seal came off the turbo and remained inside the tube when I pulled it off.

I wish I had taken some photos the first time I did this, would have saved me some, and perhaps others. my memory tells me that the seal stuck to the turbo inlet, and did not look like these photos. it had more of a grey color, and a surface that looked like some kind of folded plastic or fabric was against it. I lacked the knowledge to look inside the inlet tube, which was left close to avoid disconnecting additional tubing.

the seal shown is the old one, wiped off with a towel for these photos. It probably is fine, but I replaced it out of respect for my previous repair bill.
 
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whambulance

New member
Don't overtighten the clamp, they said. Change the seal every time, they said....
This is what happened to me. I heard some unusual air leak/vacum noises and decided to investigate.

It's pretty self explanatory.... The pipe cost me $368 AU,
However, it did come with a new orange seal.
 

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Aqua Puttana

Poly - Thread Finder
...

It's pretty self explanatory.... The pipe cost me $368 AU,
However, it did come with a new orange seal.
That seems like a dear price for a bit of plastic hose. :bash:

Was what I assume is a hardened area of the failure localized to the one end? Any hint as to what caused the material failure? Heat? Oil leak, solvents on the outside? Just age/miles?

vic
 

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