Biodiesel

Klipstr

2018 Wonder FTB
Bob, Aqua,

Thanks for the input! Corrected information noted as to how the sensor might work.

One of the reasons I switched to the Transit platform was just this: MB seems to be a bit persnickety about things. I never had an ounce of problems with mine but there was always this niggling worry there at the edges that I didn't need. Plus as we traveled to AK last summer we saw Ford dealers nearly everywhere and nary an MB dealer in site. Figured if something really went to hell I could get it fixed.

Both the Sprinter and the Transit have had the heck worked out of them in Euro for a long time. I know they are both solid based on years of work. As I recall there is a poster in this thread that has a Sprinter with 400K miles and has performed nearly flawlessly. I'm guessing there will be few owners of an LTV rig that get to 100K miles much less 400K!
 

Bobnoxious

Note to self; stay in der DZ.
Bob, Aqua,

Thanks for the input! Corrected information noted as to how the sensor might work.

One of the reasons I switched to the Transit platform was just this: MB seems to be a bit persnickety about things. I never had an ounce of problems with mine but there was always this niggling worry there at the edges that I didn't need. Plus as we traveled to AK last summer we saw Ford dealers nearly everywhere and nary an MB dealer in site. Figured if something really went to hell I could get it fixed.

Both the Sprinter and the Transit have had the heck worked out of them in Euro for a long time. I know they are both solid based on years of work. As I recall there is a poster in this thread that has a Sprinter with 400K miles and has performed nearly flawlessly. I'm guessing there will be few owners of an LTV rig that get to 100K miles much less 400K!
I share your nagging feelings and call it "Destination Anxiety."

German engineering has always been way overboard. One example, during WWII, German tank designers insisted using complex and expensive to manufacture roller and ballbearings in contrast to Soviet designers, who used simpler plain bearings because average tank Life span on the battlefield was about two-weeks. Also, German tank field repairs were almost impossible, in contrast to Sherman tanks that any farmboy could fix. In the end, American manufacturing numerical superiority over German technological superiority won the war.

Let's listen to what uncle Scotty has to say.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPJ64sTa7KI
 

woundedpig

2018 Unity MB
So what do you all suppose Ford is doing different in their diesel engine used in the Transit chassis? In all the Ford literature they tout B20 capable and have no admonishments about idle times or other concerns..
I suspect it is all about marketing the Transit vs the Sprinter. While the Transit diesel (to be replaced with a new design the coming year) may indeed have less finicky emissions components, it still uses the same emission control methods. I'm sure Ford is gleeful that MB is in its current state with respect to diesel vehicles, with MB dealers in Minnesota and Illinois lobbying for and getting statements from MB that it is OK to use B20 "You can own and drive a MB diesel in the state of Illinois (or Minnesota)....."
Though the Transit had some millions of miles on the ground in the UK, the EU countries, and Australia, its exposure to biodiesel was quite low there, especially when compared to the biodiesel mandate states in the US. UK is at 4.75%, Australia is way lower than that, due to biodiesel shortages, and the average in the Euro countries is generally 5% or less, though the % has been creeping up due to the EU mandates.
The Transit still has an emissions control system, fuel injectors and fuel lines, fuel filters, etc.. and engine oil dilution can still occur. Since it is not difficult to avoid B20 overall, especially for you, Klip, one can make their fuel choices without driving any extra miles to get the green label, unless one is driving thru Minnesota. From our driving, the B20 stations tend to be the big truck stops like Flying J, Love's, and Pilot, which we avoid - their fuel tends to be more expensive anyway.

Everyone thinks of the EU as being so green, and so it is, but there is huge clamor over the total environmental impact of biofuels, which, in total, have more environmental detriment world wide than benefit, with the high requirement for water for production, deforestation, loss of food producing cropland, carbon production in the planting/harvesting processes, etc. The EU has decided to stop imports of palm oil from Asia.
There actually are benefits to biodiesel - lubricity and improved combustion via increasing the cetane level, but these occur at biodiesel levels of only 2%.

https://gain.fas.usda.gov/Recent GA...ember State in 2017_Berlin_EU-28_6-1-2017.pdf
 
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Aqua Puttana

Poly - Thread Finder
I basically agreed with what you provided until the last comment.

...
There actually are benefits to biodiesel - lubricity and improved combustion via increasing the cetane level, but these occur at biodiesel levels of only 2%.

https://gain.fas.usda.gov/Recent GA...ember State in 2017_Berlin_EU-28_6-1-2017.pdf
I reviewed your referenced document. There was no mention of lubricity at any percentage.

"but these occur at biodiesel levels of only 2%"

Biodiesel lubricity happens at concentrations other than 2%. I believe that the statement might be correct if reworded.

but these can occur commencing at biodiesel levels of only 2%.

What I recall is that the lubricity can improve with as little as 2% biodiesel. Lubricity is also enhanced with higher percentages, but the lubricity improvement doesn't increase linearly with higher biodiesel percentage.

There is research to suggest that lower percentages of biofuel offer no improvement in lubricity until 5% or above. This contradicts the popular rhetoric. It suggests that until the percentage is at or above 5% (green label), then using green label biofuel for lubricity improvement alone may only provide minimal gain.

BiofuelLubricity.jpg
Pg. 115
http://web.missouri.edu/~schumacherl/Lubricating_Qualities_of_Biodiesel_and_Biodiesel_Blends.pdf

This pro biofuel paper suggests that lower percentages do improve lubricity.

https://www.biodiesel.org/docs/ffs-basics/performance-fact-sheet.pdf?sfvrsn=6


It may be considered nitpicking, but I think that it is best to avoid misinformation.

:cheers: vic
 

woundedpig

2018 Unity MB
The link I provided was obviously included only to provide info about biodiesel mandates in other countries. It was not a reference paper on lubricity.

My point was that high levels of biodiesel are not necessary to regain the lubricity lost by going to low sulfur diesel fuel. When the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency mandated that the sulfur content of on-highway diesel fuel be lowered from 5000 ppm to 500 ppm in 1993, the normally high lubricity of diesel fuel was affected significantly. Further reductions in fuel sulfur levels imposed by the EPA to 15 ppm were found to make diesel fuel lubricity even worse. Many studies found that adding even small amounts of biodiesel, even 0.5 - 2.0 % was enough to restore the lubricity level. In the current era, using the mandated low sulfur diesel without bio added will result in more rapid cylinder, injector, and fuel pump wear.

I provide a link from another pro-biofuel organization, that shows biodiesel at only 2% restores lubricity and any % above this does nothing. Even 1 % bio provided a dramatic benefit. Testing was done using the accepted cylinder scoring methodology. Similar results can be found by doing an online search. So the 2% number often quoted is not just the popular rhetoric. This is why the most prevalent initial biodiesel blend was 2%.

https://biodiesel.org/docs/ffs-performace_usage/lubricity-benefits.pdf?sfvrsn=4

http://large.stanford.edu/courses/2011/ph240/garcia1/docs/biodiesel.pdf
 
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Ciprian

Spark Plugs not allowed!
You guys are nuts. Lol. I'm a nut too in other ways, but not about biodiesel.

I fill up with whatever I find the cheapest. I have bigger things to worry about than what percent of bio goes in my tank.

Btw, I've never fueled my '15 at a truck stop because the price is so much higher. I fuel a lot at Wal-Mart, Kroger etc.

Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk
 

CJPJ

2008 3500 170"ext. 3.0 V6 OM642.993
The diesel fuel being sold at service stations meets a specifications thats takes into account Lubricity: Refriners have chosen and added the additives to meet road fuel specifications. Bio is one additive often used to meet the spec:
 

alehorton

New member
...

Everyone thinks of the EU as being so green, and so it is, but there is huge clamor over the total environmental impact of biofuels, which, in total, have more environmental detriment world wide than benefit, with the high requirement for water for production, deforestation, loss of food producing cropland, carbon production in the planting/harvesting processes, etc. The EU has decided to stop imports of palm oil from Asia.
There actually are benefits to biodiesel - lubricity and improved combustion via increasing the cetane level, but these occur at biodiesel levels of only 2%.

https://gain.fas.usda.gov/Recent GA...ember State in 2017_Berlin_EU-28_6-1-2017.pdf
I wouldn't write off biodiesel production as being an environmental and social detriment.Your right, appears the EU has switched from Indonesian palm to US soy, and as the article says its less about the environment, and more about price. https://www.feednavigator.com/Article/2019/04/18/Massive-jump-in-EU-soybean-imports-from-the-US

The question then becomes--can biodiesel be produced in an economically competitive way that does not degrade the environment? I think yes, it can, it depends how well we farm and manage our landscapes. Soy is nitrogen fixing, as such does not necessarily dictate soil degradation for its production.
 

woundedpig

2018 Unity MB
I wouldn't write off biodiesel production as being an environmental and social detriment..
I'm not writing off biodiesel. Now that we have a ultra low sulfur fuel mandate, we absolutely need to have at least low levels of biodiesel to restore the lubrication qualities of diesel. But we've gone about the whole biofuels thing in a wrongheaded way. This will be hard to fix.

See post #53
 

Aqua Puttana

Poly - Thread Finder
The diesel fuel being sold at service stations meets a specifications thats takes into account Lubricity: Refriners have chosen and added the additives to meet road fuel specifications. Bio is one additive often used to meet the spec:
That's my understanding.

Across the USA in most cases the CARB standards apply to diesel fuel.

From a 2016 source.

"Regulation History:

In 1993 the regulation limited the sulfur and aromatics in commercially available diesel fuel. Starting in January 2005, California diesel fuel was required to meet a minimum lubricity specification as well. This fuel, commonly referred to as CARB Diesel, is mandatory for use in a variety of applications including both highway and off-road vehicles. The limits and applicability have evolved as follows:

* October 1993 — Sulfur limited to a maximum of 500 ppm and aromatics to 10 percent or equivalent. Applicable to on and off-road vehicles but not stationary engines, locomotives and marine vessels.
* December 2004 — CARB diesel requirement extended to stationary sources (applies to on and off-road motor vehicles and non-vehicular sources other than locomotives and marine vessels).
* January 2005 — CARB diesel required to meet a lubricity requirement of a maximum wear scar diameter of 520 microns by ASTM D6079, the High Frequency Reciprocating Rig (HFRR).
* June 2006 — Sulfur in CARB diesel is limited to 15 ppm.
* January 2007 — CARB diesel requirement extended to intrastate locomotives and marine engines (within the Southern California Air Quality Management District (SCAQMD), CARB diesel must be sold to harborcraft operators beginning in January 2006)."
https://autofuel.com/carb-diesel-and-why-its-important/

:cheers: vic
 

alehorton

New member
Hi again everyone,
After some research into biodiesels, Ive come across a new method of producing the fuel from veg oils called hytrotreatment of veg oil or HVO for short. This is distinct from the to the typical biodiesel transterification reaction process. It requires the process to be in a hydrogen environment, and above 350 C, the product is parafins with a higher cetane than diesel #2 and almost no particulates. This is what HPR diesel is in San Jose Ca. They are getting their fuel from a corporation called "Neste" from singapore who is now distributing all over the US. They appear to have solved the issue of having to change anything with the engine to run bio based diesel.
https://www.neste.us/about-neste
HVO Process:
http://www.etipbioenergy.eu/images/...etable_Oil_HVO_as_a_Renewable_Diesel_Fuel.pdf
 

Jan M

Active member
Hi again everyone,
After some research into biodiesels, Ive come across a new method of producing the fuel from veg oils called hytrotreatment of veg oil or HVO for short. This is distinct from the to the typical biodiesel transterification reaction process. It requires the process to be in a hydrogen environment, and above 350 C, the product is parafins with a higher cetane than diesel #2 and almost no particulates. This is what HPR diesel is in San Jose Ca. They are getting their fuel from a corporation called "Neste" from singapore who is now distributing all over the US. They appear to have solved the issue of having to change anything with the engine to run bio based diesel.
https://www.neste.us/about-neste
HVO Process:
http://www.etipbioenergy.eu/images/...etable_Oil_HVO_as_a_Renewable_Diesel_Fuel.pdf
In Sweden the HVO100 fuel (100% HVO) has been available for a couple of years now. Many companys (and a growing number of persons) mainly use this in their fleet - including everything from 50 year old farming gear to the newest EURO6 cars and trucks.

I'm inclined to use it in my 2004 T1N 316CDI but would first like to know if anybody else has tried it. Reports from various sources are very positive but I havn't found anyone specifically about a Sprinter T1N.

Does anyone strongly advise me NOT to use it? I'm aware that MB don't encourage it (yet) but the positive effects on the environment (and my own health when using the van) are hard to ignore.

If i decide to use it I will of course report back here.
 

avanti

2014 GWV Legend 3500 I4
It is important to distinguish efforts to develop a practical, backward-compatible renewable substitute for dino-diessel from ham-handed politically-driven mandates that have little connection with reality.

It is possible to support the former while disdaining the latter.
 

Bobnoxious

Note to self; stay in der DZ.
Apparently, in the Western capital of Somalia, formerly known as Minnesota, there were field problems associated with Biodiesel.
 

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Aqua Puttana

Poly - Thread Finder
Apparently, in the Western capital of Somalia, formerly known as Minnesota, there were field problems associated with Biodiesel.
Source/link please?

Grabs from an old document may not have relevance. Biofuel/biodiesel standards have been evolving. Even in your upper USA backcountry example.

May 14, 2019. No link or source provided to date.
Until a reference for the above information is provided, it is safe to assume that the information relates to situations prior to the regulations being updated. Eg. - 2012 included some significant updates to the USA Bio fuel regulations. There is a bunch of pre-2012 Bio-fuel information and warnings still out on the internet which are now obsolete and can be ignored.

:cheers: vic
 
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SVidas

2018 Unity CB
That would be my state, I avoid filling in the summer when 20% is mandated. By the way, the Minnesota Capital St. Paul is now a "sister city" to Mogadishu. I am unhappy that my state doesn't let me have a choice of diesels.
 

Bobnoxious

Note to self; stay in der DZ.
Source/link please?
Please don't shoot the messager, I am just sharing manufacturer's information and my opinions. The document is undated and may very well be outdated and superceeded, however, I could not find a supercedure. Source Mercedes Benz, I have no link.

First, MB says stay away from B20 because, among other issues, may harm seals. However, it seems after Minnesota, California and other states are mandating B20, MB has changed their position, why? Sales? They haven't retrofitted my machine with new seals impervious to B20. Dunno, suspicious to me. But then of course that was my prior profession, to be suspicious.
 

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Aqua Puttana

Poly - Thread Finder
...

First, MB says stay away from B20 because, among other issues, may harm seals. However, it seems after Minnesota, California and other states are mandating B20, MB has changed their position, why? Sales? They haven't retrofitted my machine with new seals impervious to B20. Dunno, suspicious to me. But then of course that was my prior profession, to be suspicious.
:idunno:

Undated information...

There were some significant changes to on road vehicle bio fuel regulations in 2012. Perhaps those changes were considered by MB and caused them to change their position.

But. Those who choose to believe that MB and bio diesel is the anti-Christ won't be convinced otherwise. Given that as an owner's beliefs, it makes sense to avoid all bio diesel use at all costs. Approved 20% Blue Labels and recently issued properly dated official MB publications be damned.

Carry on.

:cheers: vic

Added:
To be clear. I wouldn't go out of my way or look for bio diesel to use in my Sprinter, but I wouldn't go out of my way to avoid the use of Blue Label commercial 6 - 20% bio diesel fuel if that were the only reasonable choice.
 
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Bobnoxious

Note to self; stay in der DZ.
Times have changed and just do see any benefit owning a modern diesel highway vehicle. Among others, .20 cent state tax fuel tax, complicated, finicky, expensive to repair emission controls and lack of convenient-competent repair facilities. Nice vehicle, comfortable, and stylish but not worth the expense and grief. A 500-mile electric version can't come soon enough.
 

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