Best Insulation Materials?! Help!

amersereau

New member
Hi all,
I've just joined the Sprinter Forum and I'm very excited about gaining some knowledge from all of you van folks. My boyfriend and I recently purchased a Sprinter that already had some of the build done (kitchen, fridge, heater, etc....) and we're planning on reconfiguring some of the build, and adding a few new features that we want (a better bed set up, storage, etc...)

Before we start doing anymore of the build though, we want to insulate it better! Currently there is just some plastic paneling over the bare metal, which helps a bit, but a lot of condensation tends to build up behind it and it doesn't do much to keep the van warm in cold winter camping. I've been doing research online trying to figure out what materials to use, and I am CONFUSED!! We need something that won't soak up moisture here in the damp PNW where we live, and don't want to use fiberglass or other toxic materials in such a small space.

So far 3M Thinsulate, or Reflectix seem like some of the best options I've come up with. I've also read that using two materials can be good, something stiffer that can be cut into sheets and used for the ceiling and flat surfaces, and then a more flexible material that can be stuffed into smaller, harder to get to spaces.

Any suggestions or advice would be much appreciated!

Thanks!
Ashley
 

hein

Van Guru
Welcome Ashley and congratulations with your van purchase. My wife, Kim, and I are the ones selling Thinsulate. We just drove over 5000 miles and spent 6 weeks living in our van full time.

I was very much overwhelmed by the insulating phase of our build. Fortunately, GeorgeRA was using Thinsulate on his build at the time and he shared the remainder of his master roll with us. We really appreciate the research George did in selecting Thinsulate. After working and living with it we are convinced that we made the right choice for insulating our van. We are now authorized by 3M to provide Thinsulate to the van conversion market.

Please call or write for more information. We are happy to send a sample and spec sheet so you can evaluate the product for yourself.

Best regards,
Hein van Swaay
Impact, Inc.
Hood River, OR
54l 49O 5O98
 

amersereau

New member
Thanks so much, that's helpful info for sure! I'm curious, did you only use the Thinsulate, or did you use any other kinds of insulation in your van as well? We were planning on putting the plastic sheeting back on after installing the insulation, but I'm not sure if we need to have some other kind of vapor barrier also?

We're going to do a bit more research, but I will likely take you up on the offer of a sample.

Thanks again!
Ashley
 

d_bertko

Active member
Welcome, Ashley.

I'll attest to the excellent thermal performance and durability of closed-cell spray foam. High R-values, relatively inexpensive. I used Great Stuff foam for the walls and rough-cut rigid isocyanurate foam panels for the ceiling. The Great Stuff foam was used to seal the edges for a complete vapor barrier. Still looks new after 10 years.

Vans are not like houses---the metal skin does not breathe. This means that water vapor in cold weather will quickly condense on the metal and be easily trapped. A person sleeping overnight will breathe out about a pint and cooking and bathing add similar amounts. (Propane produces two water molecules for each one burned.)

For folks that only warm-weather camp, ie with windows open, it is not too bad of a problem. And those that live in very low humidity areas also will naturally dry out their vehicle reasonably quickly. Vapor pressure is inexorable, but that works both ways.

But those of us that cold-weather camp or do wet sports or live in humid areas can benefit from the complete vapor seal that spray foam offers. You're essentially "painting" the inner metal skin with several inches of insulation.

Our 02 van dries out very quick from carrying wet boats and gear inside. There is none of that "old car" mustiness common in humid areas. Amazingly different from the uninsulated Econoline it repalced. I think I fear mold as a biohazard much more than the outgassing of the plastics already used elsewhere in the interior.

If the budget allows I would start with a thin initial layer of spendy acoustic dampening material. That stuff is tuned to suppress low-frequency road noise. The thermal foam does do a decent job muffling the higher frequencies sitting in a campground.
 

jostalli

Member
I have no bias as I am just now choosing what to use for my conversion. From my research I would simplify the answer to:

Easiest installation/highest R-Value/Best vapor barrier: DIY Spray foam kit like this: http://tigerfoam.com/sprayfoaminsulation/order-products/spray-foam-insulation-kits

Best all around material (acoustic control/R-Value): 3M Thinsulate SM600L from Hein

Cheapest solution for high R-Value: Polyiso foam board cut to fit with Great Stuff to fill gaps
 

GeorgeRa

2013 Sprinter DIY 144WB, Portland OR
Hi all,
I've just joined the Sprinter Forum and I'm very excited about gaining some knowledge from all of you van folks. My boyfriend and I recently purchased a Sprinter that already had some of the build done (kitchen, fridge, heater, etc....) and we're planning on reconfiguring some of the build, and adding a few new features that we want (a better bed set up, storage, etc...)

Before we start doing anymore of the build though, we want to insulate it better! Currently there is just some plastic paneling over the bare metal, which helps a bit, but a lot of condensation tends to build up behind it and it doesn't do much to keep the van warm in cold winter camping. I've been doing research online trying to figure out what materials to use, and I am CONFUSED!! We need something that won't soak up moisture here in the damp PNW where we live, and don't want to use fiberglass or other toxic materials in such a small space.

So far 3M Thinsulate, or Reflectix seem like some of the best options I've come up with. I've also read that using two materials can be good, something stiffer that can be cut into sheets and used for the ceiling and flat surfaces, and then a more flexible material that can be stuffed into smaller, harder to get to spaces.

Any suggestions or advice would be much appreciated!

Thanks!
Ashley
Answering which insulation is the best is almost impossible, the best answer is - it depends. My list of objectives: good R value, acoustic properties, hydrophobic, after installation accessibility, limited moisture penetration, but even more important a good moisture exit capability so I picked Thinsulate and would do it again.

George.
 

webdbbt

Member
Hello Ashley,

My wife and I just took delivery of a used 2014 2500 144" cargo van this morning. I joined the forum this December and this is my first post. I've been lurking for about one month and picking up lots of great tips from everyone, but insulation is the area where I'm least certain of what I want to do. I hadn't considered Thinsulate so thanks for eliciting that information from everyone. It's now on my eval list.

To all: Has anyone done a matrix of insulation options with pros/cons for each?

Thanks!
Cam
 

mojogoat

New member
I'm starting a Promaster build and I'm insulating/sound proofing it the best I can to conserve energy usage and increase comfort. I started with sound mat 25%, MLV in select areas, sandwiched decoupler (1/8" closed cell foam), EZ-cool then Thinsulate or foam board depending on the location. I'm using EZ-cool on the ceiling followed with Aerogel then Thinsulate on the ceiling to maximize the ceiling height. I've been coating the undercarridge with a hollow ceramic bead paint and will insulate where I can with either EZ-cool or foam board. Areogel is the best insulation followed by Thinsulate. Aerogel is very expensive. I would steer away from bubble type insulation, it isn't too efficient for this type of application. EZ-cool is similar but uses closed cell foam instead of bubbles and a bit more efficient.
 

hein

Van Guru
Hi everybody, I wanted to get some feed back. This is closed cell foam. would it be a good insulater in our vans. I see them use it at my job and just thought I'd through it out there.. Here's info on it.

http://www.aeroflexusa.com/pdf/aerocel-sheet-duct-11-2010.pdf
EDPM closed cell foam is more commonly known as Neoprene. This would be a good product for under floors. Maybe a little on the heavy side for the entire van. I didn't look up a cost.

For those considering or using Thinsulate: Thinsulate will dampen panels that it contacts so there is less/no need for heavy mass loading products. It also blocks low frequencies due to the thickness. Our 3M Rep says this is why Honda is using Thinsulate all over their vehicles. Weight is a major driver for vehicle design due to fuel savings mandates.

Weight is something that can creep up on a van build so avoiding heavy sound deadening products makes a lot of sense. And saves time/money.
 
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SkyPilot

New member
Hi Hein, I'm in the same spot Ashley is in choosing what route to go on insulation. The threads and comments on this subject are vast. I think I'm moe confused now than when I began! Can you tell me the R value of Thinsulate and what % sound deadening it has? I'm trying to better understand the pros and cons of going the route of 1) Fatmat rattle trap + Denim R-13 or 15, 2) 2) Thinsulate 3) Hushmat (which claims to have R-19 and 40% sound deadening). This will be a 4 season van with camping in the snow. It also needs to stay cool int he summer. I'm looking to line the entire van. Should a mix of products be used? Or will one just suffice? Thanks! Ariel
 

Inertiaman

Well-known member
I realize that you asked Hein and not me, but imho stay the hell away from Hushmat. I couldn't find any R-19 claims on their website, but I found plenty to not like. They repeatedly claim they are the "#1 rated material" for sound deadening and thermal insulation, but give no reference where/whom this rating originated. Specifying thermal performance in "40% reduction in heat" is ridiculous and indicates a total lack of engineering legitimacy. Its looks and specs like any foil/adhesive backed mass loaded vinyl product. You aren't going to get any useful thermal insulation from Hushmat.

Fatmat rattle trap is similar, and similarly over priced.

Depending on your van (and if it had OEM anti resonant panels applied or not) it *might* be useful to use an adhesive mass vinyl product on larger sheet metal surfaces, but only to 25% coverage maximum, at which point you'll reach diminishing returns. Arguably even this isn't necessary if you use Thinsulate. But if you want some adhesive anti resonant panels, check out the CLD tiles from sounddeadenershowdown here as they are far less expensive and the website is reasonably free of hype and bulls%^& that is so pervasive in the auto acoustic treatment market.

You'll find plenty of supporters and detractors here for denim. You aren't going to get R15 from it unless you are using spacing strips to increase cavity depth in the ceiling and most the walls. The denim insulations are +/- R3 or R3.5 per inch and you'll get 2 inches in most places.

I'm a Thinsulate proponent myself. Good performance in all areas (even if not great, for example R factor compared to sprayed foam), straightforward and manageable to install/use, and fairly priced if you consider its a material engineered for this purpose. I added 6 or 8 CLD tiles on the large (un)window panel cavities that did not have the OEM tiles in place. Happy with results.

EDIT/PS: You can find Thinsulate acoustic performance quantified in gain vs. frequency charts in various documents, I attached one example. The fact they provide quantified engineering data speaks to their credibility in comparison to lots of hype.
 

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SkyPilot

New member
Thanks for taking the time to offer this response. Super helpful information. The thinsulate and CLD tiles looks like a good route to go!
 

jostalli

Member
Thanks for taking the time to offer this response. Super helpful information. The thinsulate and CLD tiles looks like a good route to go!
Thinsulate R-Value is around 5 and spreads to around 2".
R-Max closed cell foam board from Home Depot at 2" has R-Value of 13.1

So, if you want R-Value there are better materials to choose than Thinsulate.
 

Nate

Member
I used thinsulate since it was fast and easy to install. I found that it quieted the van so much that now I hear a lot of road noise from the front wheel wells.
I need to do those next I guess. ;)

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk
 

Graphite Dave

Dave Orton
It is not required to use only one type of insulation. Different solutions can be used in different places. What I am doing:

Floor: Filled in between the floor corrugations with 1/2" flexible closed cell foam. A 1/8" layer of mass loaded vinyl and then 1/2" plywood. A 1 1/2" thick 80/20 framework is bolted to the plywood. Under cabinets is a 1 1/2" thick layer of polyiso rigid insulation. In floor area a 1" layer of polyiso, 1/16" layer of fiberglass and a 3/8" rubber gym mat for the top surface. Both the 1" insulation and the gym rubber were slightly thicker than nominal.

Noise suppression is not my main concern. "R" value is more important to my application. Just filling all the voids will obtain enough noise reduction.

Upper and lower deep wall cavities: Two coats of insulating paint. Two layers of 1" flexible closed cell foam (Aerocel), layer of Relectix, 1 1/2" air gap covered with 7/32" plywood with a 1/8" layer of closed cell foam glued to the back for wall cover. Aerocell is folded and stuffed through the openings and then unfolded. Glued in place with Aeroseal adhesive.

Rear wall window indents: In order to obtain a 74" across the back bed length, this insulation needed to be rigid and thin. Two coats of insulating paint on exterior steel in openings. Added 1/8" Rattletrap to outside van steel where Ford did not install the rectangular noise suppression. Primary reason was to get a flat surface to glue (3M 90) on 1 1/2" thick blocks of rigid polyiso in the openings. Two blocks in each opening with 1" gap between the blocks and 1/2" gap around the perimeter. Two blocks so rigid matched the wall curvature. Sprayed Great Stuff (Big Gap) around the perimeter and in the 1" gap to hold blocks in place. Blocks had a 1" chamfer on each corner for later filling with spray foam. Next the excess Great Stuff was removed around the perimeter so 1" rigid polyiso could be glued on top of the window frames and between the 1 1/2" blocks to obtain a flat surface. Next used Great Stuff to fill in the voids. Used loose hack saw blade to remove excess. Covered insulation with 3/16" thick indoor/outdoor carpet glued with 3M 90. Time consuming but maximum "R" value for thin insulation.

Ceiling: Two coats of insulating paint. Glued (3M 90) multiple blocks of 1 1/2" rigid to exterior steel. Block size determined by roof corrugations and length between ribs. Used 1" next to ribs due to the roof rib flange thickness. Filled voids between blocks with spray foam. Covered with Reflectix. Macrolux polycarbonate ceiling is flat between the upper cabinets so there is an air gap between the Macrolux and the Reflectix. 1/2" layer of Aerocel closed cell foam laid on top of the Macrolux. Inside cabinets a 1 1/2" layer of Aerocel is glued to the polyiso rigid insulation and covered with indoor/outdoor carpet.

Above cab ceiling: Not done yet but probably two layers of Aerocel closed cell foam.

Ribs: Filled with Great Stuff spray foam.

Doors: Thinsulate
 

SkyPilot

New member
I've got a few more questions for all the insulation masters out there. Thanks in advance for your help! For those who are using Thinsulate insulation, are you using the thinsulate under the floor as well as the walls and ceiling? Or would you recommend a different insulation for the floor? It looks like the SM600L is 2" thick, how many inches will it compress down to under finish surfaces? I'm trying to determine how many inches I'll loose on the height and width of the van due to the insulation. Every inch counts when your boyfriend is 6'3!
 

Nate

Member
My van is technically a work van so I didn't insulate the floor.
If I was going to insulate it I think I'd just use 1/2" rigid for it.

Sent from my ONE A2005 using Tapatalk
 

lukedog

Why Dogs Fly
It is not required to use only one type of insulation. Different solutions can be used in different places. What I am doing:

Floor: Filled in between the floor corrugations with 1/2" flexible closed cell foam. A 1/8" layer of mass loaded vinyl and then 1/2" plywood. A 1 1/2" thick 80/20 framework is bolted to the plywood. Under cabinets is a 1 1/2" thick layer of polyiso rigid insulation. In floor area a 1" layer of polyiso, 1/16" layer of fiberglass and a 3/8" rubber gym mat for the top surface. Both the 1" insulation and the gym rubber were slightly thicker than nominal.

Noise suppression is not my main concern. "R" value is more important to my application. Just filling all the voids will obtain enough noise reduction.

Upper and lower deep wall cavities: Two coats of insulating paint. Two layers of 1" flexible closed cell foam (Aerocel), layer of Relectix, 1 1/2" air gap covered with 7/32" plywood with a 1/8" layer of closed cell foam glued to the back for wall cover. Aerocell is folded and stuffed through the openings and then unfolded. Glued in place with Aeroseal adhesive.

Rear wall window indents: In order to obtain a 74" across the back bed length, this insulation needed to be rigid and thin. Two coats of insulating paint on exterior steel in openings. Added 1/8" Rattletrap to outside van steel where Ford did not install the rectangular noise suppression. Primary reason was to get a flat surface to glue (3M 90) on 1 1/2" thick blocks of rigid polyiso in the openings. Two blocks in each opening with 1" gap between the blocks and 1/2" gap around the perimeter. Two blocks so rigid matched the wall curvature. Sprayed Great Stuff (Big Gap) around the perimeter and in the 1" gap to hold blocks in place. Blocks had a 1" chamfer on each corner for later filling with spray foam. Next the excess Great Stuff was removed around the perimeter so 1" rigid polyiso could be glued on top of the window frames and between the 1 1/2" blocks to obtain a flat surface. Next used Great Stuff to fill in the voids. Used loose hack saw blade to remove excess. Covered insulation with 3/16" thick indoor/outdoor carpet glued with 3M 90. Time consuming but maximum "R" value for thin insulation.

Ceiling: Two coats of insulating paint. Glued (3M 90) multiple blocks of 1 1/2" rigid to exterior steel. Block size determined by roof corrugations and length between ribs. Used 1" next to ribs due to the roof rib flange thickness. Filled voids between blocks with spray foam. Covered with Reflectix. Macrolux polycarbonate ceiling is flat between the upper cabinets so there is an air gap between the Macrolux and the Reflectix. 1/2" layer of Aerocel closed cell foam laid on top of the Macrolux. Inside cabinets a 1 1/2" layer of Aerocel is glued to the polyiso rigid insulation and covered with indoor/outdoor carpet.

Above cab ceiling: Not done yet but probably two layers of Aerocel closed cell foam.

Ribs: Filled with Great Stuff spray foam.

Doors: Thinsulate
Can you tell us about your insulating paint. Did you have to sand for adhesion? Can yours be brushed on?
 

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