Lithium battery sources/options

surlyoldbill

Well-known member
I have 8 good 12vdc 400ah wheelchair batteries that I got from a client when I changed over his chairs to new batteries. Only two of the old ones tested defective, but he likes to change them regularly so he won't get stuck! I also had an old portable jumpstarter that had a bad battery, so I tore it apart and used the brains to make my own 1600ah portable power system. I also added a 400 watt inverter and put a GFCI on the box I made to house the stuff. My cobbed together device allows me to charge it via 120ac or 12vdc, either through cigarette lighter socket, solar, or direct from D+ or D- connections. It has 120ac output as well as 12vdc socket and 2.1amp 5vdc USB.

I only add this post because the pics above look like what I made, and I have thought about using all 8 batteries to make an aux battery system in my van, which would fit under the passenger seat.

Correction: 7 amp hours for 28ah total. Don't know where or why I got 400ah! Must have been thinking about something else.
 
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OrioN

2008 2500 170" EXT
Quick update...


...bank (440aH or NET 350aH @20% SOC/80% DOD) is fully installed and tied into existing DC system which too had some 'logistical' modifications made to accommodate some redundancy and protections required for LiFePO4 charging. (I'll post the final schematic shortly...)


20150629_062908-opt-900.jpg


Visible: 4/0 cables, BMS Houseboard (left wall), BMS Cell Boards, & Main Contactor. Plus, 8020 housing, that serves to lock down the cells.

Pack arrived at ~40% SOC, and required ~ 250aH to fill. I fully charged it via solar (600W PV @36V Input) in 2 days (95% sunshine, but ~30C temperatures which reduced output). My TriStar MPPT logs(chart not shown) showed I harvested ~200aH per day. I consumed ~70-80aH for daily loads, leaving me the rest for bank fill. Once I hit full charge rate late mornings, I averaged 32A output @14.0 - 14.3V (chart shown).


Screenshot (68)-900.gif


In a few days, after I tweak the charger setups and monitor the performance, I report some of my findings/observations. I can tell you one thing for now... LiFePO4 can definitely drink current at a much higher rate, and all the way up to the end of it's full capacity (brief alternator charging at around 90% SOC showed it could draw +60A's, where my old AGM's would be down to 10-15A). :rad:




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mugget

Member
Nice work OrioN!

I have caught up on this thread now, lots of good info - feeling like I am just about up to speed on lithium (am yet to read the Compass Marine articles though).

I just wanted to get peoples thoughts/input on something. I've been Googling around to try and get my head around lithium charging requirements and general best practice for longest service life. I have been finding lots of good info at EV sites/communities and happened across some very interesting info from EVTV Motor Verks. It makes sense to me to put a lot of faith in what the EV crowd says, because they are dealing with large battery banks that cost a fair bit more than anything we would use. So logically if there was any particular group of LiFePo4 users who were most concerned with the absolute "right way" to treat and use these batteries, you'd think that these people would be the ones.

I'll summarise the main points that caught my interest:

  • Cell balancing is a myth! Most BMS designs are marginally effective and many are actually dangerous.
  • There is actually no reason to spend money on expensive, complicated BMS that turns your system into a spaghetti wire nightmare.
  • Only 2 basic rules: do NOT overcharge and do NOT overdischarge. (This is not revolutionary, but note there is no rule about balancing, etc...)
  • Cells do not actually drift apart from each other with regards to state of charge.
  • Top balancing does not actually even balance anything.
  • They do not top balance cells when charging a string in series.
  • Bottom balancing - ONCE when cells are new and installed.
  • Once balanced, you should NEVER remove current from individual cells, only the battery bank as a whole. This means no cell monitoring devices, no manual voltage checks of individual cells, as this will draw current (as little as it may be). These parasitic loads are what will cause cell imbalance.

That's the gist of it. And unless I've misunderstood what they're saying, it seems like they use no BMS at all, and just use the entire battery bank as one single stand alone battery. You can read their full theory and bottom balancing procedure here: http://media3.ev-tv.me/cellcare.pdf (This is written specifically in reference to the CALB CA cells they sell: http://store.evtv.me/proddetail.php?prod=CA180, but I don't see any reason why it wouldn't apply to other LiFePo4 cells?)

Other interesting side points - they use braided copper straps to negate any loosening caused by movement/vibration in vehicle installs. Reason being that loose connection means heat, and if you have hotter and hotter lithium batteries - I'll let you imagine an explosion sound effect in your head. They also state that braided copper straps have less resistance than solid copper?

What do people make of this approach? :thinking:

It actually makes sense to me - as far as cells not requiring balancing if you don't connect extraneous devices to individual cells. Am I right in thinking that their approach uses no BMS at all? This would simplify the system a whole lot...

My Electrical System Plan
I am trying to understand two aspects to this: 1) Necessary usage and care requirements; and 2) The least complicated system design.

Power input will be from vehicle alternator, and solar panels. Was thinking of the Sterling Alt. Batt. charger, and just using a non-lithium profile to achieve the correct charge voltage cutoff. But now I've seen OrioN mention the use of a 12V contactor that seems like a much more elegant solution. (But if my planned equipment can't control the contactor I may just go with the Sterling unit.) Actually I just remembered that the BlueSea ACR 7622 should handle the job easily as well, much more simple than the Sterling unit - only need a simple bulk charge from the vehicle alternator/battery.

Solar power - I've been looking at the Victron EasySolar units as a fairly attractive solution. A single integrated unit that combines:
  • MPPT solar charge controller. Max. 700W, 100V open circuit voltage (up to three strings can be connected.)
  • Inverter/charger. 1200W/3000W Peak. House batteries can be charged from solar power and/or AC from shore power or generator
  • AC Distribution. 3x 10A AC outputs, 1x 16A AC output available when shore/generator power available.

    This is fully programmable for whatever charge protocol you want to use for lithium batteries. So I can specify the necessary parameters to avoid overdischarge, as well as the limits to avoid overcharge.

    And if I'm working by EVTV's theory - that is all that is required to ensure a long life in the lithium battery bank?

    ... I have thrown myself a bit now because I was expecting to list more equipment, but I think that just about covers it off with only two pieces of gear. Plus of course any fuses/breakers etc. as required. Who thought it could be so easy?!? :laughing:

    I have an understanding of the voltage limits/settings required for normal charging (the recommendation in the EVTV PDF is basically the standard accepted lithium charging procedure). Now I just have to finalise the equipment list in light of this revelation that BMS is not required.

    Also, being in Australia I don't have to worry about cold temperature charging. High temperature is more of a concern to me. I understand that it's not so much peak hourly temp. that can cause damage, but high average daily temps. So I'm still in two minds as to whether it would be better to mount the batteries underbody, or inside in a fan vented cabinet? (I have plenty of space either option.)

    One last thing - I'm not sure if either the BlueSea ACR or Victron EasySolar can account for temperature differences when charging... I will need to check on this. And I also forgot that I still need DC distribution.

    Okay - let's hear your thoughts and comments! :professor:
 
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mugget

Member
I agree that marine use is closer to RV/conversions that we would use. But as far as battery usage I don't really see the difference? I mean honestly - all batteries do is store energy, and supply energy when required. You can look into the whole usage equation, all manner of current draw over x amount of time, ad infinitum... but when it comes down to it it's still just energy in/energy out.

Okay, I'm reading through the Compass Marine article now - thought I would take notes as I go... I am going to just put some thoughts down to try and make sense of this. So I may correct myself as I read on. Hopefully I don't just come out of this more confused. :wtf:

I did not know about compression packs for lithium batteries/cells. I would always have strapped the cells together to hold them rigid in some manner, it doesn't look like any compression is actually applied, just that the cells aren't loose. Which I would have done anyway, but good to know the reason for it (other than not having cells loose & bouncing around everywhere).

BMS
The article states that the main purpose of Battery Management System is to avoid over charging and over discharging at a cell level. No mention of balancing being a primary function of BMS. In my previous plan I was thinking - ok, let's just set the correct safe voltage cutoff levels on the chargers? Then there can't be any high/low voltage events? He does mention a good point about the BMS being there to catch any system errors, for instance if the charger reboots and loses it's programming. Yes, that would be very bad... But what if the BMS fails as well?? You can keep building protection into the system, redundancy on redundancy on redundancy... and where do you draw the line? He goes on to mention a manual reset contactor as the last ditch/ejector seat protection for the cells. Except that this also acts on individual cell voltage. Well that does seem like a good idea, if we have this then why the need for other "insurance policies" for your insurance policy??

I'm still thinking at this point - "ok, why is all the cell-level monitoring needed? If there were no current draw from individual cells, then they would all remain at the same voltage??" So I haven't yet seen a reason to monitor cells. But an ejector seat contactor on the battery bank seems like a good idea. And then we have it...

"I DO NOT LIKE OR BELIEVE AUTOMATED CELL BALANCING IS NECESSARY FOR A WELL EXECUTED FRACTIONAL "C" SYSTEM !!!!"
Shunt-balancing, it doesn't sound too good to me, and he admits that it's rarely done correctly:

Picture four 5 gallon buckets filling with water for a moment. When one becomes full, ahead of the others, a small spigot dumps some of that excess "overflow" into the less full buckets but if the fill rate is fast enough it can't handle all the excess "flow".. This is sort of how "shunt balancing" or a diversion of current balancing system works.
However it is possible to do it "properly" with a very well designed system, at low current. Which is what how his setup works, except with a manual balancing procedure. But then - guess how many times he's had to balance? On 500+ cycles his system has shown no balancing necessary! Side point - if there is the need to balance cells the preference is to do this on a bench using a power supply with independent voltage and current control - and this would need to be done every 5-6 years for a coastal cruiser, or 1-2 years for a full time cruiser; based on his battery bank setup & performance. (Not a difficult process at all.)

So then I come back to my original question - why is cell balancing necessary??? Well... even his experience shows that it absolute is not needed! But this comes back to the most important point, no argument on this - that it is essential to have a properly designed system, which in my mind still comes down to the basic principle to bottom balance the cells once upon installation, and then never, ever draw current from any individual cell. He does mention numerous times the need for "safe and sane charging levels". Absolutely - no doubts there! And again these safe and sane charging levels are the same as recommended by EVTV. Compass Marine (CM) notes that high charging voltages above 14.2V (3.55V per cell) are what result in the need for balancing, and it becomes a catch 22 cycle. The voltage limit agrees with what EVTV recommend - 3.5V.

One thing that stands out is that his setup and recommendations apply to "fractional C" systems. I'm not 100% sure on what this means, but I can only assume that is means that charging & discharging are done at less than 1C (a fraction of 1C). So for a 400Ah battery bank, in order to classify it as a "fractional C" system you would not charge or discharge at rates greater than 400A. Is that right? If so, that would most likely apply to all RV requirements - but it is where EV usage may differ? Perhaps in discharge, maybe if the system is not designed correctly (too small of a battery bank)? But probably not in charging as there are no high current charge stations available. So this leads me to believe that the recommendations from EVTV are also based on a fractional "C" system? (Perhaps? Maybe only partly, for charging?)

Interesting tidbit now - CM mentions one case from the EV crowd:
I was conversing with a gentlemen who emailed me who is an avid DIY EV enthusiast. He, like me, read and read for years before jumping in. Once he got his cells he began experimenting in his home shop to confirm, and put what he was reading, into practice. Long and short is he chose not to have balancing BMS and relied solely on one bottom balance when his cells were new. Yes he did have LVC and HVC protection in place just not a BMS that balances. He also chose safe & sane charging voltages.

At his first EV car show all he heard all day was that he was going to ruin his cells; "You have to have a BMS that balances!", "You must have cell balancing!", "Hey guys here's a fire waiting to happen!". One particularly obnoxious electrical engineer berated him for nearly 40 minutes while himself admitting he was on his second set of prismatic cells in a few years. "Wait until you get a few hundred miles on those and they are junk." To which the guy responded "A few hundred? These puppies only have 33 THOUSAND miles and are just getting broken in.". The electrical engineer walked off with his tail between his legs..... A lot of LFP is simple common sense...
So - that's got do make you think, hhmmm?? :hmmm:

Cell Balancing
It seems that in choose to use bottom or top balancing, the choice should be made based on whether you want to prevent over discharge, or over charging? Which would explain why the EV crowd use bottom balancing, because they use nearly, or all of their battery capacity and want to make sure a cell doesn't go negative. Whereas the RV crowd would be much more likely to use a bit here and a bit there, and would almost always have some charge source active (PV, alternator charger, shore power, etc.) Ok - so now I can see why top balancing would have an advantage in RV usage, so there is less risk of over charging. But even then, as we've seen in CM's experience - no balancing was needed anyway.

But I still don't understand how this mystery of top/bottom balancing actually works - if you ensure all cell voltages are equal at the top, then you discharge/charge the battery as a whole - the cell voltages should rise & fall equally. Also if you ensure all cell voltages are equal at the bottom, they should remain equal as the battery is charged/discharged as well? Can anyone provide an actual explanation as to why there should be any voltage divergence between cells if they have been correctly balanced?? :idunno:

In my situation I will only ever get up to 0.5C maximum continuous usage rate. But I would be close to fully discharging the battery bank on a fairly regular (daily) basis during summer. Well at least in theory, as I'm sure that PV and alternator charging would mean it is never reaches 100% DOD. This is what makes me wonder if the EV method is better for me? But there's still the question of what actually causes cell voltage to diverge? Well I'll keep reading and hope to find out...

Alternator Charging
CM gives the recommendation of Blamar MC-614 alternator charger, no better charger available for LiFePo4 batteries. Reason being that it has a dedicated voltage sensing wire which carries zero current so it can provide an accurate voltage reading (provided that it is wired correctly). Not sure if the Sterling charger has this - but something to check!

There is also a lot of talk about burning out alternators if they are running at maximum output bulk charging lithium batteries. This seems like a non-issue for RV builds, I guess this is where the equipment differs? But the Balmar charger even has the option of limiting alternator current. Note to self: check whether this is required.

Dedicated voltage sensing wire is also important on AC battery chargers, any units such as the Victron EasySolar inverter/charger that I am planning to use. However there are a number of manufacturers who fail in this basic requirement for a lithium charging system. CM names and shames the failures:
  • Mastervolt
  • Magnum
  • Xantrex

There are only two manufacturers who "get it":
  • Victron (Victron I/C's have dedicated voltage sense terminals right on the main unit)
  • Outback (Requires FLEXNET DC & MATE Remote Control)

I knew there was a reason I had a really good feeling about Victron!
(Did not know that Outback is an American company. Thought it was Australian - "outback Australia" and all. Never heard anyone talk about "outback America". Haha :laughing: )

How Cell Balance Diverges
Okay, I said I might keep reading on and may correct my earlier comments - so it looks like I have found the answer to "what causes cell balance to diverge?"

Here is how I understand it:
The severe "upper knee" and "lower knee" high/low voltage curve of the lithium charge process means that a small variation in cell voltage at the "usable" flat & stable curve range is greatly exaggerated as the cell voltage moves into the upper knee, because as soon as one cell enters that range the voltage will increase much faster than other cells that are still in that "flat" part of the charge curve. And so you have one cell whose voltage ramps up to possibly (likely?) dangerous levels while the others are all safe, and the battery pack can register a normal, safe voltage.


Image: http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/image/155043664

So it follows that best practice involves limiting the charge voltage at 13.0-14.0V. Thus avoiding the likelihood of cell divergence. CM does state that if people kept out of the upper knee when charging, there would likely be no need for a balancing BMS, just HVC and LVC. Looks like the EV crowd don't have such wildly different ideas after all...

Capacity Testing
The case is made to do a bench test on your lithium cells, firstly to set a baseline before use - it's difficult to program an Ah counter when you have know idea what the actual capacity is. And secondly, in order to measure the capacity at regular intervals (yearly for example) - otherwise you will have no idea if you started off with less capacity, or your usage & mistreatment of the bank caused premature capacity loss.

You simply need a load, a way to track Ah's, and a way to track individual cell voltage so you can stop the test when the lowest cell drops to 2.8V. Sounds like a sensible thing to me!


Summary & Conclusion
Sorry for the wall of text, but I needed to try and make sense of all this. Well that Compass Marine article was quite informative!! Definitely worth a good read. So I've now come away from that with a few key points:
  • A corretly setup lithium system is vital to long battery life
  • Correct setup can mean nothing more than bench balancing once every 1-5 years depending on usage, as well as high & low voltage cutoffs
  • Dedicated voltage sensing wire
  • Do not over charge, do not over discharge

I don't think I've missed anything there? It really can be as "simple" as that!

I know that the article still recommends a BMS as insurance for HVC & LVC, but even after reading that info I still like the idea of minimising parasitic loads on the cells and ditching the BMS/cell monitoring. And he admits that he has not needed to balance the cells once in 550+ cycles. In combination with benchtop balancing once every year or two for a high usage bank, this seems perfectly reasonable to me.

The main question that remains is whether top or bottom balancing is going to be better for my particular usage. But this is enough typing for one post, I shall return... :professor:
 

atulin

New member
Alternator Charging
CM gives the recommendation of Blamar MC-614 alternator charger, no better charger available for LiFePo4 batteries. Reason being that it has a dedicated voltage sensing wire which carries zero current so it can provide an accurate voltage reading (provided that it is wired correctly). Not sure if the Sterling charger has this - but something to check!
yes, sterling has voltage and temp sensing at the bank.
 

RonR

Recovering Sprinter Owner
I can't argue / don't disagree with the previous comments but I think there a few points that are being ignored.
- The BMS is really an insurance policy, any small amount of balancing (if any) that a BMS performs is just icing on an already good cake.
- It makes sense that each cell is a little different, they will have slightly different amounts of electrolyte, operate at different temperatures (end of the stack compared to the middle) and have different terminal temperatures (a good connection compared to one that may have a bit of oxide).
- At either extreme (if you choose to get close to 100% charged and low (about 20%) discharge it is very likely that one cell may be at a damaging voltage while all the others are OK and the net stack voltage is also OK. So measuring each cell prevents destroying the one outlier cell. This is really the reason for an initial balance. Net battery capacity is limited by the one cell that is at it's max or min voltage. The closer to identical the more net capacity in the battery stack. This is also the reason that a simple charger, that only measures the combined stack voltage, might overcharge or over discharge.

My design (still testing on the bench) is to limit charging to about 95%, discharge to about 20%. Just staying away from the knee's of the curve. FYI the safe low voltage changes at low temperature. Low temp data on the web shows a safe low voltage of 2.8 at 25C but 2.7 at 0C. (I think this voltage is too low for maximum battery life and will use something a little higher.)
Reviewing a lot of web data shows that each vendor is a little different and even for the same vendor characteristics change based on the manufacture date. It seems to make sense to do at least one bench test to see where your specific batteries fall in the range of possible voltages and perform an initial balance. All that being said, if you stay away from the extremes generic values should be just fine.

Ron
 

mugget

Member
Each cell would be perhaps a little different, but how much? Really? If we are using quality cells that are matched for capacity & internal resistance? Would it even be measurable? I suppose this is one of the things to check after receiving the cells, we need to establish a baseline for all these factors. Perhaps the result of this would then dictate the use of a BMS, or let us know that we can safely use it with no BMS, bottom balance, and annual cell testing?

Also I would say that a good terminal connection, proper install ensuring minimal oxide should be the default. Connectors that are just bolted straight onto the terminal - to me this is an example of a bad install.

I'm still reading up, need to phone & talk with the supplier I am going to buy these cells from. But in the meantime - found an interesting post on an EV forum, someone mentioned that top balance only balances voltage, not capacity. I thought they were both the same thing? IE - 3.7VPC/14.8V = 100% SOC?? That person said that bottom balancing does balance the capacity and voltage at 0% capacity. So then all your cells will reach 0% at the same time, no risk of any cell going into voltage reversal.

An interesting post here - what really causes lithium batteries to fail?

The main take away points are:
  1. Charging above 80% SOC and/or top balanced
    Manufacturers use additives in the electrolyte to try and slow the problem, but basically you lose capacity with every cycle (I'm assuming every cycle above 80% SOC).
    [*]Warm conditions greater than 30ºC (86ºF)
    The twist here is that they're talking about internal battery temp., not ambient temps.! Internal temp. can reach 50ºC in freezing weather! Turn up the heat and charge faster, the process will accelerate. Keep lithium batteries warmer than 0 and cooler than 25 (remember, talking internal temps. here) and do not charge faster than 2/C (I assume it should be "C/2", ie. 50A charge for a 100Ah battery. "2/C" would be an insanely slow charge.)
    [*]Over discharge
    No surprise to us. But the point is made that if you top balance you are at risk of an over discharge.

Also you can still be at risk of over discharge if your BMS fails - this is why I come back to thinking along the lines of - what is more damaging, and what is easier to prevent? Over charge or over discharge? The way I see it, bottom balancing with a 3.5V charge limit covers both bases. If you set your charge controller limit at 3.5VPC, that's it - you're safe from over charging. And if you bottom balance you eliminate the over discharge risk, and it does not cost a single penny or any automation outside what the standard equipment would provide.

I know this info comes from an EV forum, but we're talking about the same battery chemistry - so the exact same things will damage our batteries. It's just the usage that is different. And the thing is, I'm yet to see any evidence or theories as to how usage impacts these safety measures in any way.

If you really want to get into it, there is a 1hr 15min YouTube vid at the above link with quite a lot of technical information. If you really want to know about lithium, watch through a couple of times and looking anything you don't understand. I have my coffee ready, I'm going to give it a shot now..!

Edit >>

I also wanted to add that yes, I do realise that there are many different ways to setup a lithium system that will give a long service life. Not saying that no one should top balance or do whatever else they want. There are so many variables in design requirements, usage, degree of user input, etc. that there is no single "proper" setup. For my personal use, I'm leaning towards the least complicated system possible, that uses the fewest components. Logic being that there will then be less maintenance and less change of failure, with fewer components that can fail (and lower overall cost). I'm putting all my thoughts out there in the hopes that if I am heading down the wrong track, someone will shoot my ideas down and help get me back on the right course.
 
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sandrak

Member
If I read the spec right, that is only a 160 amp hour battery @ roughly $3,000. You can get a 200 amp hour pack for AM Solar for $1,900. Or a 400AH pack for $3,300. They do a top balance only though, and I don't think they'll sell it without the BMS, which is included in the price I think.
 

jme3505

2019 Gas Transit
Thanks Sandrak, but if I read the specs right it was $1500 for the 160 amp hr battery. $3000 get a 400 amp hr pack. Am I reading right. I want to start planning a lithium battery pack but I have no idea what capacity I need. I want to be able to run a small 12v air conditioner for a few hours.
Jon
 

mugget

Member
Looks like you are right jme3505, Balqon 12V 400Ah pack is US $3,000.
I've heard lots of mixed things about dealing with them - also what kind of warranty do they have - you would want to check.

I think after everything that has been discussed in this thread it's fairly clear that lithium is not yet ready for mass market RV use. So a manufacturer can make all the claims they want, but it's not worth a thing if they don't back it up with a warranty. From what I've seen the lithium system being offered by Advanced RV is the only one backed up with a serious warranty.

Look at the Balqon packs - indoor use only. So are you going to install it inside the van? What about summer temps, you're going to let the pack be stored in a closed vehicle with massive ambient temps that will significantly shorten useful life? Or are you going to void the warranty and install it underbody?

Even if you spend up and get a pack with a good warranty, there is a lot you still need to be aware of. It's not just a set and forget type deal. At least not if you want to get the best performance and maximum service life out of them. IMO.

As for running air conditioning from the battery, there are a couple of threads discussing this. (I'm planning on doing this myself.) But from what I have found, I can tell you that an inefficient 12V A/C unit is not going to be your ideal choice. A domestic/home mini split system inverter compressor will be the most energy efficient unit you can possibly buy. Miles ahead of any purpose-built RV/transport units. But that's getting a bit off topic here...

You really need to calculate your power requirements before you can spec a power system including battery.

And FWIW, depending on your power usage & driving habits, I believe it is definitely possible to run A/C with a 400Ah lithium bank as part of your system.
 

DieselFumes

2015 4x4 2500 170 Crew
I know I'm late to the party but has anyone heard of this assembled RV battery pack:
http://www.balqon.com/online-store/#!/RVs/c/12286435/offset=0&sort=priceAsc
$1500 for a 2KWhr pack. Seems reasonable.
I bought their 9KWh one recently. Read back a couple of pages in this thread. I'm only just installing it now, so I can't comment on longevity, etc.

I'd say don't deal with balqon if you can help it. The product is fine (if a little rough around the edges) but there is no customer service. You will not be able to reach them on the phone, and they often don't answer email either. That doesn't bode well if you have issues with the product, want to ask a technical question, or want warranty service.

The BMS in the Balqon is very similar to the House Power BMS. You might be better off buying raw cells and building your own. In fact, given the immaturity of the market (as suggested by others in this thread) unless you feel confident building your own, I wouldn't go for anything other than a drop-in replacement at this point, and even those units have their own potential issues if you don't fully understand how lithium differs from lead.
 

sandrak

Member
Jme3505, you were correct that it was 400 AH. I read the wrong page.

I'm not an expert at all either, but my purpose is the same as yours. I bought the 12volt Sleeping Well portable air conditioning cube to cool my dog crate in the back of my black van while I'm in getting groceries and such. In my current van that only has a 100 AH AGM auxiliary battery, I can only run it for about 30 minutes without concern for depleting the battery in a way that wouldn't be good for it.

When my new 4x4 van arrives sometime early next year, I'll be putting a 400 AH LIFEPO4 pack in it. I have been researching and preparing for a very long time, and built my own 40 AH learner battery. I considered Balqon initially, but did not read anything good about them on any forum. Contrasting that to AM Solar was night and day.

When I first talked to AM Solar a couple years ago, they said they were testing LFP batteries but would not sell me one until they could stand behind it from their own personal experience. Fast forward a couple years and now they sell them in several configurations specifically for RV/conversion van applications. I spoke with them, and my only hesitation about their packs are that they include the BMS.

I'm persuaded by the Jack Rickard argument/conclusion that BMS is unnecessary, and actually introduces the most likely failure point. Though I may change my mind if a better option appears before my new van gets here, I will likely buy the CALB CA series cells from EV motor works, bottom balance, strap the pack myself, and put over/under charge protection at the entire pack level, following his methodology.
 

mugget

Member
sandrak - I was just wondering what ongoing maintenance processes you have planned for your lithium pack? For example yearly testing & re-balance (bottom)?

I think you're the only person I've found who is thinking about this the same as me. I'm still persuaded that BMS is unnecessary, and I see strong benefits to bottom balancing.

Also what power usage are you planning on? Fairly high loads, lots of inverter use etc.? Just asking because I'm still trying to gather info about how much the usage will determine the suitability of top or bottom balancing.
 

Oberon

New member
I am also I interested in learning more. We have just taken delivery of our van and I spoke with AM Solar this week. I am a newbie but having cut our teeth on a VW westy I decided to get a base cargo van and build it myself. AM Solar mentioned that the van could support 2 x100w solar panels and suggested that most people go with the 200ah kit. Any insight or things I should consider would be most welcome.
 

RonR

Recovering Sprinter Owner
What you end up doing depends a lot on your experience, skills, wallet and luck. I found 2 SunPower X21-345 (345W each at 41" by 61") panels and mounted them on my 170 wheelbase van. They were extra panels from a large commercial project that I found at a solar install company in San Jose (can't recall the name). The point is that some searching might secure a much higher efficiency panel that could get you many more solar watts. Keep in mind that the AM solar spec of 100W or the SunPower 345W spec are ideal and probably will never be achieved so it makes sense to get as many watts as you can on the roof. Less money and time to over design a little up front rather than trying to upgrade later.
Ron
 

sandrak

Member
sandrak - I was just wondering what ongoing maintenance processes you have planned for your lithium pack? For example yearly testing & re-balance (bottom)?

I think you're the only person I've found who is thinking about this the same as me. I'm still persuaded that BMS is unnecessary, and I see strong benefits to bottom balancing.

Also what power usage are you planning on? Fairly high loads, lots of inverter use etc.? Just asking because I'm still trying to gather info about how much the usage will determine the suitability of top or bottom balancing.
For yearly maintence, I do plan to drain it to the low cutoff and track any changes in capacity, similar to the on-going test they do on the technomadia.com blog. I don't plan to bottom balance again after the initial one unless I think there's a problem, because everything I've read has indicated that the cells don't drift apart. If I learn differently, I'm certainly willing to change that.

My power usage high load is the 12v sleeping well cube air conditioner. Though I don't have a means of testing the actual load from this, the manufacturer indicated its between 25-44 amps. I use it for short periods to keep my dog cool when I have to be out of the van for re-supply errands. I plug this into the 50 amp fused Andersen connector on my National Luna intelligent solenoid power pack. I also plug my Edgstar 43 qt 12v frig into the Hella socket on the power pack, which is presently housing a puny 100 AH AGM aux battery.

I'm not currently planning on using an inverter, since most of my usage is with native 12v appliances. The reason for the bottom balance for me is because I don't plan on any charge source except the alternator, and I dry camp extensively, where I'm more likely to get to the low cutoff. I'm not planning to charge above 90%, and the battery will likely spend a lot of time in the 20-50% charged range.
 

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