I made this camper van electrical diagram, but I desperately need help!

220629

Well-known member
The good news with a resistive heat type appliance like a toaster is that there is no real surge upon start-up like appliances with motors will draw.

vic
 

GeorgeRa

2013 Sprinter DIY 144WB, Portland OR
Probably a piece of crap, but I just happened on it when I was trying to figure out wattage, so I figured there were probably other options. I still don't know if I could max out the load of a 600w inverter with a single 600w appliance:

Magic Chef 4-slice Toaster Oven
Most likely nichrome resistor wire is used in the toaster which changes its resistance from cold to hot about 5-9% so your 600W oven could be about 660W when cold. Personally, I would not use a 600W inverter unit with 600W load. AC power off the grid is expensive and more difficult to do. Wiring 50A circuit requires more knowledge than 25A circuit. If the toaster is the key reason to have 600W inverter consider LPG toaster such is this one http://www.pinterest.com/pin/430656783089718398/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nichrome

George.
 

GeorgeRa

2013 Sprinter DIY 144WB, Portland OR
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeRa
200A breaker is OK, could use fuse - https://www.bluesea.com/products/772...ety_Fuse_Block

OK, the only reason I specced a breaker was I figured I wouldn't have to worry about extra fuses... but it seems like this one is a 'worst case' fuse? Is there any difference between a breaker and a fuse?

It is a safety fuse, you don’t need a circuit breaker there. Circuit breaker disconnects the circuit if current is too high just like fuse but circuit breaker can be reset and fuse is one time use. Hopefully this 200A fuse will never fry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeRa
Between the ground bolt on the seat and batteries you need to place a measuring shunt. Consider this http://www.victronenergy.com/upload/...-series-EN.pdf Connection between the Victron’s shunt and display panel doesn’t require twisted cable, I don’t know about Tri Metric.
So this would replace the Trimetric Monitor, correct? That's fine, I'd rather use one that someone recommends... I just added the Trimetric based on a conversation with a guy at AM Solar.

My personal experience with Xantrex (Victron like) has been great, simple to use menu. A lot folks like Trimetric, I am not too hot about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeRa
Switch – Yes
Is there a particular switch you'd recommend? And are there any other places in the system that would need some sort of switch?

https://www.bluesea.com/products/6005/m-Series_Mini_On-Off_Battery_Switch_with_Key_-_Red

Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeRa
14 gauge marine wire, OK. It is simple formula to find wire gauge. Find out current flow such as: 600W Inverter / 12V = 50A; go to this table and find the AWG require for running distance -http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_wire_gauge

I will give this a study. But for DC runs (LED lights, fan, usb chargers, etc.) 14 gauge is standard, right?

There is no standard, it depends on the load, but, you will be fine with 14 except an inverter connection.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeRa
What I the connection between Tri-Metric and SunCharger?
I am not sure to be honest, the gentleman at AM Solar mentioned a wire that connects the two. But if the BMV-700 replaces it, I will adjust the plan.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeRa
Consider MPPT controller for your panel http://www.grapesolar.com/images/pdf/GS-S-160-Fab8.pdf http://www.homedepot.com/p/Grape-Sol...Fab8/202959994
like this one - http://www.morningstarcorp.com/products/sunsaver-mppt/ MPPT makes high voltage useable versus PWM which chops it off.
This would replace the SunCharger, correct? Again, I am fine going with recommendations...

Yes, Morningstar is a good company, but there are others. Just pick a MPPT unit with amperage better than 160W/14V=12A

Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeRa
600W toaster?, I though they are usually higher power.
I ran across some low-wattage toaster oven and thought that it could be an option...

Just be aware that this toaster will drive your electrical system cost and difficulties.

I would suggest adding 15A service, look for Dave’s DIY electrical 15A shore power implementation.
It would be wise to have battery charger like this one http://www.amazon.com/Samlex-America-SEC1230A-Smart-Charger/dp/B004U7VBDE or this one http://www.bestconverter.com/804-1240-02-Truecharge2-40-Amp_p_315.html#.VF5gVvnF__E

George.
 

d_bertko

Active member
We are usually too parsimonious with our watt-hrs to bring our toaster oven.

But I splurged for our stickhouse and bought a spendy Breville model. It does many things very well and could certainly add a pretty good oven to the van. Ours competes pretty successfully with our GE wall oven for anything small enough at home.

Most consumer appliances that benefit from more power usually aim for 1800w. Our choice of a 2000w Prosine inverter reflects this. Less power is usually a functional compromise and probably near-failure for a toaster-oven.

Breville mini model

Read the complete description of their IQ tech to figure if the extra $$$ are worth it for you.

Dan
 

Oldfartt

Active member
Pedaling Nowhere,

Under the drivers seat, where the engine battery is you will find attached to the positive battery terminal, a row of fuses. There will be one empty fuse position. This is the one to use for your feed to the ACR/house battery. A flat fuse (100 Amp or so) like the others on the fuse distribution board should be available from an electrical automotive supplier.
Fuses should be placed close to all sources of energy.

To more equalize the current through the house batteries, on your diagram move the negative connection to the ground terminal and to the fuse distribution panel, to the left battery.
Use a ground terminal stud already available under the passenger seat. If no stud is available use a new, separate bolt through the floor. Do not use a bolt which has a separate structural reason for being there. If such a bolt is used it could cause unreliable connections, in particular if any repair work is subsequently done. Always use a separate dedicated bolt for your ground connection.

While you are working on the van always disconnect the battery ground connector which can be found under the dash by your right foot.

MPPT controller :clapping:

If you use a battery monitor (recommended) then the current shunt is positioned to measure all the current drawn by the load and the power sources, eg. solar, AC charger, alternator

As a rule of thumb, There should be no more than 3% voltage drop from the energy source to any point of the load. This equates to 0.3 Volts max drop in a 12 volt system. For your main battery cables use the largest size wire that your wallet can stand.!

Cheers

Ross
 

pedalingnowhere

New member
600 watt toaster oven probably draws more than 600 watts. Need to check with a "kill-a-watt" meter. (HF for about $25.00). My 600 watt Proctor-Silex basic $50.00 600 watt microwave draws 1053 watts. My Magnum MMS1012 1000 watt inverter is into its surge capacity to run the micro. Originally I tried a 700 watt micro and that did not work due to overloaded inverter.

Always test appliances with the kill-a-watt meter to determine their actual watts.
I kind of figured that it wouldn't be possible to max it watt for watt. I am still considering a 1000w inverter in case we go this route.
 

pedalingnowhere

New member
Thanks again GeorgeRa! I have a couple outstanding questions before I put the final touches on the plan and place an order.

Are there any other places in the system that would need some sort of switch, or just between the battery and DC fuse box?

I would suggest adding 15A service, look for Dave’s DIY electrical 15A shore power implementation. It would be wise to have battery charger like this one http://www.amazon.com/Samlex-America-SEC1230A-Smart-Charger/dp/B004U7VBDE or this one http://www.bestconverter.com/804-1240-02-Truecharge2-40-Amp_p_315.html#.VF5gVvnF__E
Is the battery charger only necessary with the shore power addition?

Yes, Morningstar is a good company, but there are others. Just pick a MPPT unit with amperage better than 160W/14V=12A
Where did the 14v come from? Is that the rating for the panel?'

Also, your link to the 200a fuse got cut off... is this it? Blue Sea Systems Safety Block
 
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pedalingnowhere

New member
Pedaling Nowhere,

Under the drivers seat, where the engine battery is you will find attached to the positive battery terminal, a row of fuses. There will be one empty fuse position. This is the one to use for your feed to the ACR/house battery. A flat fuse (100 Amp or so) like the others on the fuse distribution board should be available from an electrical automotive supplier.
Fuses should be placed close to all sources of energy.

To more equalize the current through the house batteries, on your diagram move the negative connection to the ground terminal and to the fuse distribution panel, to the left battery.
Use a ground terminal stud already available under the passenger seat. If no stud is available use a new, separate bolt through the floor. Do not use a bolt which has a separate structural reason for being there. If such a bolt is used it could cause unreliable connections, in particular if any repair work is subsequently done. Always use a separate dedicated bolt for your ground connection.

While you are working on the van always disconnect the battery ground connector which can be found under the dash by your right foot.

MPPT controller :clapping:

If you use a battery monitor (recommended) then the current shunt is positioned to measure all the current drawn by the load and the power sources, eg. solar, AC charger, alternator

As a rule of thumb, There should be no more than 3% voltage drop from the energy source to any point of the load. This equates to 0.3 Volts max drop in a 12 volt system. For your main battery cables use the largest size wire that your wallet can stand.!

Cheers

Ross
Thanks Ross; very helpful points! You kind of lost me in that last one, but I will think on it and read more... :thinking:
 

GeorgeRa

2013 Sprinter DIY 144WB, Portland OR
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeRa
Is there a particular switch you'd recommend?
https://www.bluesea.com/products/600...with_Key_-_Red

Are there any other places in the system that would need some sort of switch, or just between the battery and DC fuse box?
It is nice to have a switch or cb/switch combo https://www.bluesea.com/products/7180/285-Series_Circuit_Breaker_-_Surface_Mount_25A between solar panel and charge controller so you can work on the system when the Sun is up. You also need a CB or fuse between charge controller and battery as recommended by charge controller manufacturer. I used CBs on both sides of the charge controller. To minimize solar losses use recommended wire gauge, from the following calculator calculates about 8 AWG. http://www.colemanair.us/vp_asp/Scripts/Articles/TheBasicsAndBeyond5_WireSize.htm

Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeRa
I would suggest adding 15A service, look for Dave’s DIY electrical 15A shore power implementation. It would be wise to have battery charger like this one http://www.amazon.com/Samlex-America.../dp/B004U7VBDE or this onehttp://www.bestconverter.com/804-124...l#.VF5gVvnF__E

Is the battery charger only necessary with the shore power addition?
No, but if you have access to AC it will charge battery and run all DC appliances. I would add on your diagram the following:
15A shore cable > 120V outlet
15A shore cable > Converter (a charger) > batteries
For simplicity of installation you could consider RV type converter which includes charger and fuse box for example http://www.bestconverter.com/WFCO-8735P-Power-Center-_p_298.html#.VF--J_nF__E
http://www.wfcoelectronics.com/UI/P...F-8735-35-Amp-Power-Center.aspx?ptype=3&pid=3
Converters are used in most of RV systems. Inverters above 1000W have often chargers built in so a lot of folks with high AC power needs, like on this forum, tend to use inverters in lieu of converters. But by far, using converter is the most common practice in the RV industry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeRa
Yes, Morningstar is a good company, but there are others. Just pick a MPPT unit with amperage better than 160W/14V=12A
Where did the 14v come from? Is that the rating for the panel?'
High charging current is around 14V on 12V battery system, so I use 14V. http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/charging_the_lead_acid_battery

Also, your link to the 200a fuse got cut off... is this it? Blue Sea Systems Safety Block

Yes, but read Ross’ comments above. Good access to starting to auxiliary battery connection is under the driver seat. Study this document, http://www.sprinter-rv.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/Aux-battery-retrofit-guideline-NCV3.pdf Use this fuse OEM 150A fuse (MB# N 000000 000432) oor equivalent. If you study this document you will find out that you don’t need a separate fuse block.

George.
 

d_bertko

Active member
Quote:

Converters are used in most of RV systems. Inverters above 1000W have often chargers built in so a lot of folks with high AC power needs, like on this forum, tend to use inverters in lieu of converters. But by far, using converter is the most common practice in the RV industry.
I was a complete rv newbie back in 04 when I designed my DIY campervan. I remembered being pretty puzzled by the continued existence of converters. Our interests were strongly in the direction of drycamping and it seemed like converters were for folks plugging in every day into shore or gennie power. Plus what about road use where ac power is wanted and a portable gennie not convenient.

I'd like to hear from some people rv'ing for more than 25 years about the emergence of the use of larger inverters in rvs. Was it an early problem of synthesizing a pure sine wave to power more finicky devices ?

Converters may work for the typical larger rv'r who plugs into shore power almost every day but perhaps less useful for mobile b's with alternator and solar options.

Dan
 

GeorgeRa

2013 Sprinter DIY 144WB, Portland OR
I was a complete rv newbie back in 04 when I designed my DIY campervan. I remembered being pretty puzzled by the continued existence of converters. Our interests were strongly in the direction of drycamping and it seemed like converters were for folks plugging in every day into shore or gennie power. Plus what about road use where ac power is wanted and a portable gennie not convenient.

I'd like to hear from some people rv'ing for more than 25 years about the emergence of the use of larger inverters in rvs. Was it an early problem of synthesizing a pure sine wave to power more finicky devices ?

Converters may work for the typical larger rv'r who plugs into shore power almost every day but perhaps less useful for mobile b's with alternator and solar options.

Dan
My first campers had neither inverters nor converters, simple auxiliary battery charged by the alternator and an LPG fridge and furnace. These were Westfalias.

In the mid-80s we moved to US built RVs and all of them had converters. I upgraded our 2008 BigFoot trailer to 1500W sine wave inverter (no charger) about four years ago. Sold it before getting much usage from it.

In this specific case with the need of 600W AC, there is no sine inverter which includes charger as far as I know. So the options are:
1. Solar, no AC charger, just inverter.
2. Solar, AC charger and inverter.
3. Solar, converter and inverter.

Converters are power stations which includes:
- AC circuit breakers main and loads
- Charger
- DC fuse panel
so they are much simpler to install than all separate pieces.

In my conversion the 1000W inverter/charger was a mistake. We practically don’t use microwave and the microwave was the only reason to have 1000W inverter. 300W AC sine wave would be plenty enough and I would use a converter. Most likely I will upgrade my electrical system with a low power idle consumption 300W inverter.

I don’t know statistics of current RV electrical system, but, would bet that with an average of two 24 or 27 series house batteries the converter is still very much prevailing technology and rightfully so.

The key question to be asked before going convertor or inverter route is AC power need off the grid, if it is about 1000W or above the inverter/charger make sense, below 1000W a converter is a clear winner in my view.

If you need large amount of energy off the grid going to other sources like LPG, gas, butane, diesel is likely a much better choice.

George.

PS; I would not be surprise that sooner than later companies will come up with products which integrate
charger, inverter, AC panel, and DC panel functionality in one unit, it just make sense.
 
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pedalingnowhere

New member
OK, I finally got around to reworking the diagram. I have been doing what I consider funner stuff, like building a bed frame and planning cabinetry. This time it's in 3 phases. After much deliberation, I think we are going to start simple, then add solar, then an inverter. Here they are. Any additional feedback or help is greatly appreciated...

Phase 1



Phase 2



Phase 3

 

GeorgeRa

2013 Sprinter DIY 144WB, Portland OR
Looks good, difficult to read and download or saving pictures didn't work for me. I like the 3 phase approach. Based on what was able to decipher,

All ground connections need to go through the shunt so charging and discharging currents are visible to the Victron. You have some ground connections bypassing the shunt connecting to the battery post. Auxiliary battery negative post <> shunt <> chassis ground and all loads and charges. There should be only one connection to the negative battery post, the shunt. If you connect a light bulb to the battery positive and chassis ground the current will pass through the shunt.

George.
 

hein

Van Guru
Beautiful diagrams. A lighter font would make the text more readable for us old guys.
George is right. All the electrons must pass through the shunt to be accounted for.

Recommend a disconnect switch on the inverter like you have for your 12V distribution
panel. I used a four way battery switch in reverse. The battery is on the incoming
(common) terminal, the 12V panel on terminal 1 and the inverter on 2. Reducing
wiring runs and connections is always a good.

BTW, The Bluesea 9006 switch appears to be superseded by the M-series.

When the Phase 3 diagram is complete. I would vote for making it a sticky!
A lot of folks are struggling with what you have made very clear to understand.
 
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pedalingnowhere

New member
OK, I just updated the diagram (much thanks to GeorgeRa!!!). Also, I spoke to a Sprinter camper builder in Asheville, NC who may help me do the wiring. He mentioned that he thought the wire from the fuse block to the ACR only needed to be 4ga. Not sure there, but we'll see.

 

HowardB

New member
Im no expert but shouldn't your ground wire guages match yout positive wire guages?
Oh im sorry ... I thought all the positive cables were the same size as the orange cable.

I zoomed in on the guage thing and saw tour red and blacks are matching.
 

Graphite Dave

Dave Orton
Your diagrams are beautiful.

Two observations:

1. You need a class T fuse between the battery and the Blue Sea selector switch.

2. You might want to use a positive bus between the selector switch and the 5026 12 volt panel instead of using the panel terminal as a distribution point. You might want to add another 12 volt load in the future.
 

GeorgeRa

2013 Sprinter DIY 144WB, Portland OR
I would suggest using other than color as the designation for the wire gauges, it can get easily confused with polarity. Black is ( - ) negative, red is ( + ) positive. The easiest way would be to add a gauge number and leave black and red color to well established standards.

Howard is correct, the positive wire gauge and the negative one from the battery should be the same if they are the same length. I think the your positive 2 AWG is OK, but from the negative Lifeline battery to the shunt should be changed 2 AWG, and from the shunt to preferably negative post on the starter battery or a very good ground also should be changed to 2 AWG.

Looks very good, a very good generic schematic to be easily followed by others.

George.
 

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