Layout plan.

GeorgeRa

2013 Sprinter DIY 144WB, Portland OR
I agree that having any lag during relay being turn on or off can cause havoc with D5. I like your concept of thermostat. I found these bimetallic fixed temperature switches. I need to see the Isotherm front which style would be the easiest to mount in the front or even on the coolant return connection.

http://www.senasys.com/shop/product/12-sealed-thermal-switch-431-301a090-l/

George.
 

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Graphite Dave

Dave Orton
Since building our first (and the last) house I learned TurboCAD and have been using it since.
George.
Just to remind you that you said the same thing about conversions!:thumbup:

Was looking for other information and found this.

What sealant did you use on the Maxxair?
 
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GeorgeRa

2013 Sprinter DIY 144WB, Portland OR
Just to remind you that you said the same thing about conversions!:thumbup:

Was looking for other information and found this.

What sealant did you use on the Maxxair?
Good catch Dave,

At the time of writing we did not anticipated building another house, buying yes, but not building. Early this year we came out with 8 objectives for new house, after 4 month of completely unsuccessful hunt we decide build and will meet 7 objectives, the missing one is a nice view.

For my fan I used butyl tape and Dicor lap self levelling sealant. http://www.campingworld.com/shopping/item/dicor-self-leveling-lap-sealant-white/32125 in accordance with Maxxair folks and my previous experience.

George.
 

Graphite Dave

Dave Orton
Good catch Dave,

At the time of writing we did not anticipated building another house, buying yes, but not building. Early this year we came out with 8 objectives for new house, after 4 month of completely unsuccessful hunt we decide build and will meet 7 objectives, the missing one is a nice view.

For my fan I used butyl tape and Dicor lap self levelling sealant. http://www.campingworld.com/shopping/item/dicor-self-leveling-lap-sealant-white/32125 in accordance with Maxxair folks and my previous experience.

George.
Thanks. I just came to the same conclusion about the Dicor. Did not include the sealant used in my fan installation post. It is nice to be able to go back and read what I did so I know how to do this one. Too bad I did not keep the 14" square pattern. I also did not expect to do another conversion.
 

GeorgeRa

2013 Sprinter DIY 144WB, Portland OR
I am getting close to have all of the gadgets necessary to install the Espar D5. Putting thoughts on paper helps me a lot to clearly see how to proceed.

The water heating will be controlled by 1 or 2 switches, 1 during above freezing temperatures and 2 during freezing weather.

In the antifreeze operation the D5 will be cycling between 40 to 50 deg F. I am a little concern in keeping D5’s combustion chamber healthy in low temperature operation, thoughts?

For water heating operation I will be using the internal D5 control oscillating between 167 and 176 deg. F.

I found the tee-connector for diesel fuel connection with the factory KL1 tap. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00CJLJ8JW?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s00

Overflow tank is http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002R5UOAC?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00

Temperature switch is http://www.senasys.com/shop/product/2570l113-thermal-switch/

George.
 

Attachments

GeorgeRa

2013 Sprinter DIY 144WB, Portland OR
From the get go I was planning to have 4 season conversion. My water pump, hoses, fresh and grey water tanks are all under the van. My current plan is to use the coolant from the Espar D5/Isotemp loop to circulate in the reasonably closed of space were the tanks are.

I am getting ready to order 3/8 SS tubing but am beginning to have another thought. My previous RVs had grey/black tanks under the floor in the covered space and hot air was blown in from the LPG furnace.

My gray water tank, water heater and Espar D5 are on the left side and fresh water tank, bulk of plumbing, and water pump on the right side of the van.

I can heat these spaces with looped metal tubing, my current plan, or I can add small liquid to air heat exchanger with built in 0.5A fan and use ducts to distribute hot/warm air into left and right spaces.

Using coolant I would likely idle D5 in low temperatures and with a heat exchanger I would use above freezing temperature thermostat to control the fan.

So, which media do you think is better, air or coolant? Any thoughts are welcome.

George.
 
I'd like to ask a couple of basic questions to help me with me own design/install.

The addition of the Espar D5 hydronic is to allow you to heat water while boondocking for extended periods because you obviously will not be running the engine. Is that correct ?

Do I understand your coolant diagram to show that you will not be connecting the isotemp to the engine coolant loop but only to the Espar D5 hydronic ?
 
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GeorgeRa

2013 Sprinter DIY 144WB, Portland OR
Yes to both questions. The Isotemp has redundancy of shore power, D5, and unlikely the Inverter while driving, I think this is enough. Heating the Isotemp with the D5 will be very quick.

The Isotemp has an over temperature safety switch with set temperature of ~180F (Hein knows) which can be triggered with a hard working engine coolant. Hein had direct experience. Having triple redundancy and additional complexity lead me away from hooking the Isotemp to the engine coolant.

If I would want to heat engine coolant with D5 I would like to add liquid/liquid heat exchanger and a water pump in the engine coolant loop, again, added complexity.

I will be adding a coolant loop to either directly or via air keep water tanks from freezing, I would not want to do this with the engine coolant for reliability sake.

George.
 
Thank you for the answers. I envy the options of your setup. Being less mechanically inclined, I am trying to simplify my design to match my skill set.

I'm contemplating using the Isotemp with the engine coolant loop and with the Isotemps 750 watt electric element through an inverter/solar/lithium battery bank.

Form the figures Hein gave me in another thread and my past experience in another rig, I'm confidant that the Isotemp will provide me with warm water 24 hours after I get to camp. Possibly longer if I provide additional insulation. I will have both the Isotemp and fresh water tank inside of my thermal envelope, which obviously helps. After that, again from Hein's figures :thumbup:, it takes about 30 minutes of electric to bring the water in the Isotemp up to temperature, which equals about 31.25 ah.

Does that scenario sound reasonable ?

I believe the high temperature setting on the Isotemp is at 190 if I am reading the manual correctly. What happens when that kicks in ? I believe Hein has his Isotemp up in the engine compartment, which means a very short/efficient/hot coolant loop. I plan to install the Isotemp 3/4 of the way back towards the rear of the Westfalia, so maybe my coolant loop heat losses will prevent the high temp safety switch from triggering ?

I am not yet fully fluent in how the engine coolant loop is setup/functions.

Sorry for the hijack.
 

GeorgeRa

2013 Sprinter DIY 144WB, Portland OR
Thank you for the answers. I envy the options of your setup. Being less mechanically inclined, I am trying to simplify my design to match my skill set.
I'm contemplating using the Isotemp with the engine coolant loop and with the Isotemps 750 watt electric element through an inverter/solar/lithium battery bank.
Form the figures Hein gave me in another thread and my past experience in another rig, I'm confidant that the Isotemp will provide me with warm water 24 hours after I get to camp. Possibly longer if I provide additional insulation. I will have both the Isotemp and fresh water tank inside of my thermal envelope, which obviously helps. After that, again from Hein's figures :thumbup:, it takes about 30 minutes of electric to bring the water in the Isotemp up to temperature, which equals about 31.25 ah.
Does that scenario sound reasonable ?
I believe the high temperature setting on the Isotemp is at 190 if I am reading the manual correctly. What happens when that kicks in ? I believe Hein has his Isotemp up in the engine compartment, which means a very short/efficient/hot coolant loop. I plan to install the Isotemp 3/4 of the way back towards the rear of the Westfalia, so maybe my coolant loop heat losses will prevent the high temp safety switch from triggering ?
I am not yet fully fluent in how the engine coolant loop is setup/functions.
Sorry for the hijack.
It takes 42 min to increase temperature by 30 deg C of 15l with 0.75kW so 30 min could be optimistic. http://processheatingservices.com/water-heating-time-calculator/

If the safety thermal switch is triggered it needs to be pushed to reset, Hein drilled as small hole so he doesn’t need to remove the cover, not a big deal.

Is it reasonable to heat water with any batteries, I depends what is the need over time X, your battery capacity over the same time X, and battery charging capacity over time X. These are 4 unknowns, the X, output, capacity, and input so I can’t answer your question, personally I would never rely on electric water heating without shore power in any CAMPING vehicle.

Your far back location of the Isotemp could be difficult to implement. I remember my troubles with water cooled Westfalia which had radiator in the front and engine in the back. There was a special process to purge air out of the system. I think you are asking for trouble with this location unless you completely understand how to design it for capability of purging air. If you would design your system in series this could have a negative impact on the engine coolant flow due to higher flow restriction. If it would be in parallel then I don’t know how much coolant flow would you get. In my system Isotemp and D5 are below the van’s floor and expansion/filling tank is in higher location in the engine bay, a simple system to purge. Your proposal is way more difficult than Isotemp/D5/expansion tank. Sorry.

George.
 

irontent

New member
I am getting close to have all of the gadgets necessary to install the Espar D5. Putting thoughts on paper helps me a lot to clearly see how to proceed.

The water heating will be controlled by 1 or 2 switches, 1 during above freezing temperatures and 2 during freezing weather.

In the antifreeze operation the D5 will be cycling between 40 to 50 deg F. I am a little concern in keeping D5’s combustion chamber healthy in low temperature operation, thoughts?

For water heating operation I will be using the internal D5 control oscillating between 167 and 176 deg. F.

I found the tee-connector for diesel fuel connection with the factory KL1 tap. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00CJLJ8JW?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s00

Overflow tank is http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002R5UOAC?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00

Temperature switch is http://www.senasys.com/shop/product/2570l113-thermal-switch/

George.
Looks like a reasonable approach.

One suggestion ... You have a connection directly from the ISOtemp tank output to the D5 with a T connection to the expansion tank. You should have the output of the ISOtemp dump into the expansion tank, and plum the D5 input directly to the output of the expansion tank. I think using the T approach you have will prevent the expansion tank from properly charging the input side of the D5. Also get rid of the T connection on the output of the D5, and simply build one big series coolant loop with the expansion tank just in front of the D5 supply.

You might check-out the Rixen MCS control panel / circuit board. I don't know how much it costs (or even if it is available by itself) -- I got it via a complete package. It takes care of most of the switching and has inputs from two different T-stats -- one for hot water (a little button one usually mounted on the hot water heat exchanger), and one for the Van interior temperature (i used a cheap battery powered home depot one). The logic in the controller handles the and/or needs of both hot water and space heating. As far as the winter / summer switches you have in your diagram, they may not be needed if you were to use the Rixen control module. In that case, you can plumb the system with two 12v solenoids (one normally open and one normally closed) with the power supplied by the Rixen controller FAN output.

I also did not notice the high-altitude sensor for the Espar D5 in your diagram. It is essential if you plan to operate above 5,000 feet altitude. Watch-out if you also use the Espar dig controller for code reading or Tstat functionality. There is a signal conflict using both together, and a simple SPDT switch is needed to select one device or the other. This is problematically if you are using the dig controller as one of your thermostats.
 
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irontent

New member
From the get go I was planning to have 4 season conversion. My water pump, hoses, fresh and grey water tanks are all under the van. My current plan is to use the coolant from the Espar D5/Isotemp loop to circulate in the reasonably closed of space were the tanks are.

I am getting ready to order 3/8 SS tubing but am beginning to have another thought. My previous RVs had grey/black tanks under the floor in the covered space and hot air was blown in from the LPG furnace.

My gray water tank, water heater and Espar D5 are on the left side and fresh water tank, bulk of plumbing, and water pump on the right side of the van.

I can heat these spaces with looped metal tubing, my current plan, or I can add small liquid to air heat exchanger with built in 0.5A fan and use ducts to distribute hot/warm air into left and right spaces.

Using coolant I would likely idle D5 in low temperatures and with a heat exchanger I would use above freezing temperature thermostat to control the fan.

So, which media do you think is better, air or coolant? Any thoughts are welcome.

George.
One disadvantage of using an air / coolant exchanger for protecting the water tanks is the need to completely isolate the space around the tanks. Plus, the fan is more prone to failure that a tubing approach carrying coolant. I'd vote for the tube heating approach.

Regarding your tubing size, I had a couple of radiant installers tell me that it would e better to go with 3/8 or 1/2 inch tubing. But none of them could explain why. I choose to go with all 5/8 tubing for radiant heat (in order to reduce the pressure head needed to move fluid in the tube, and plumbed the main lines between the D5 and the inside heat exchanger / radiant loop with 3/4 heater hose. I can't prove that my system works better with the larger tubing, than the recommended smaller diameter tubing, but using the 5/8 Onix radiant tubing worked out well since it is one inch in diameter, and my radiant heat floor channels were exactly an inch deep. If you are planning to use PEX tubing, be aware that it expands / contracts a lot while heating, and can create a noisy heating system. The Onix tubing is more expensive, but you don't need much of it, and it is very easy to install in that it kinks much less than PEX tubing in the radiant heat application.

If you mix metal tubing for under van heating of your tanks, with Onix (or PEX) tubing inside for heat, you will need a separate control circuit for the heat for the tanks to avoid over heating the van interior. You may already be planning that -- if so, please disregard this redundant comment.

You will be very happy with the D5 -- it works great -- as long as you either stay below 5,000 altitude, or use the Espar Altimeter sensor if you are above 5000 Ft altitude.
 

avanti

2014 GWV Legend 3500 I4
Also get rid of the T connection on the output of the D5, and simply build one big series coolant loop with the expansion tank just in front of the D5 supply.
I agree. In my setup, I have a long "winter" loop that heats all the plumbing, with a simple valve that bypasses the loop for summer use. The valve is open in summer and creates a "short circuit" so no significant coolant flows through the long loop. In the winter I will close the valve, thus forcing all the coolant through the long loop on its way back to the expansion tank.
 

GeorgeRa

2013 Sprinter DIY 144WB, Portland OR
One disadvantage of using an air / coolant exchanger for protecting the water tanks is the need to completely isolate the space around the tanks. Plus, the fan is more prone to failure that a tubing approach carrying coolant. I'd vote for the tube heating approach.
Very good point, running coolant is just simpler, a good KISS principle.

Regarding your tubing size, I had a couple of radiant installers tell me that it would e better to go with 3/8 or 1/2 inch tubing. But none of them could explain why. I choose to go with all 5/8 tubing for radiant heat (in order to reduce the pressure head needed to move fluid in the tube, and plumbed the main lines between the D5 and the inside heat exchanger / radiant loop with 3/4 heater hose. I can't prove that my system works better with the larger tubing, than the recommended smaller diameter tubing, but using the 5/8 Onix radiant tubing worked out well since it is one inch in diameter, and my radiant heat floor channels were exactly an inch deep. If you are planning to use PEX tubing, be aware that it expands / contracts a lot while heating, and can create a noisy heating system. The Onix tubing is more expensive, but you don't need much of it, and it is very easy to install in that it kinks much less than PEX tubing in the radiant heat application.
If you mix metal tubing for under van heating of your tanks, with Onix (or PEX) tubing inside for heat, you will need a separate control circuit for the heat for the tanks to avoid over heating the van interior. You may already be planning that -- if so, please disregard this redundant comment.
I am only using D5 to heat hot water and heat water tanks and plumbing for 4 season conversion. I think that using combination of SS tubing and rubber hoses would be the simplest for me.

Regarding the Espar temperature sensor I am not planning to install it, at least for now. Camping over 5000' is rather rare for us.

George.
 

GeorgeRa

2013 Sprinter DIY 144WB, Portland OR
Looks like a reasonable approach.

One suggestion ... You have a connection directly from the ISOtemp tank output to the D5 with a T connection to the expansion tank. You should have the output of the ISOtemp dump into the expansion tank, and plum the D5 input directly to the output of the expansion tank. I think using the T approach you have will prevent the expansion tank from properly charging the input side of the D5. Also get rid of the T connection on the output of the D5, and simply build one big series coolant loop with the expansion tank just in front of the D5 supply.

You might check-out the Rixen MCS control panel / circuit board. I don't know how much it costs (or even if it is available by itself) -- I got it via a complete package. It takes care of most of the switching and has inputs from two different T-stats -- one for hot water (a little button one usually mounted on the hot water heat exchanger), and one for the Van interior temperature (i used a cheap battery powered home depot one). The logic in the controller handles the and/or needs of both hot water and space heating. As far as the winter / summer switches you have in your diagram, they may not be needed if you were to use the Rixen control module. In that case, you can plumb the system with two 12v solenoids (one normally open and one normally closed) with the power supplied by the Rixen controller FAN output.

I also did not notice the high-altitude sensor for the Espar D5 in your diagram. It is essential if you plan to operate above 5,000 feet altitude. Watch-out if you also use the Espar dig controller for code reading or Tstat functionality. There is a signal conflict using both together, and a simple SPDT switch is needed to select one device or the other. This is problematically if you are using the dig controller as one of your thermostats.
Rixen is using the expansion tank for electric heating which requires the tank to be in the main recirculation loop. My expansion tank is only for expansion and original fill which could be slow with 3/8" tube but likely sufficient. Having side glass will let me see the fluid level without opening the tank.

For water heating I will use just on/off switch. For antifreeze system I will have a temperature switch cycling D5 around 5-10C of coolant.

George.
 

GeorgeRa

2013 Sprinter DIY 144WB, Portland OR
Only 2 weeks left to get keys to the new garage but I still found some time to get ready for the jump start.

I decided how to install my Mornigstar 300W inverter. There going to be 3 outlets, on both sides of the galley and in the right overhead cabinet. 2 outlets will be daisy chained to one of the galley GFCI outlet. To prevent accidental conflict with Shore Power/Magnum and to reduce energy consumption I will be placing an NC relay activated by 120VAC from either shore or Magnum. I am following installation guide provided by the Morningstar Co. Having designated 300W outlets adjacent to shore/Magnum ones will make plugging appliance to right outlet easier.

George.
 

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George,

Your build-out is amazing! And the documentation is superb. Thanks so much for sharing it. I'm looking forward to seeing the hot water system get built out.

Best,

Clyde
 
hi GeorgeRa,

I appreciate all of your advice i've gathered thus far from the forums.

quick question, how did you deal with all the holes and cuts you made in the van steel body to prevent rust corrosion? did you employ a POR-51 treatment and then seal with a polyurethane caulk or silicon sealant?

I was planning on using http://absolutecoatings.com/POR15-Brand.php or something similar. Plan is to treat areas where I drill the holes, also treat the bolts (unless they're stainless steel, then i wouldn't need to, correct?) and don’t put any rust preventative on the threads themselves. then sponge the product. should i then paint it as well? also, for drilling into steel did you oil the drill bit at all and with what? or would rustoleum paint suffice?

did you treat literally all cuts directly into the steel (for example, all fans, all holes drilled for panels, all holes drilled into base of van, etc.)?

thanks :)

Amelia
 

GeorgeRa

2013 Sprinter DIY 144WB, Portland OR
hi GeorgeRa,

I appreciate all of your advice i've gathered thus far from the forums.

quick question, how did you deal with all the holes and cuts you made in the van steel body to prevent rust corrosion? did you employ a POR-51 treatment and then seal with a polyurethane caulk or silicon sealant?

I was planning on using http://absolutecoatings.com/POR15-Brand.php or something similar. Plan is to treat areas where I drill the holes, also treat the bolts (unless they're stainless steel, then i wouldn't need to, correct?) and don’t put any rust preventative on the threads themselves. then sponge the product. should i then paint it as well? also, for drilling into steel did you oil the drill bit at all and with what? or would rustoleum paint suffice?

did you treat literally all cuts directly into the steel (for example, all fans, all holes drilled for panels, all holes drilled into base of van, etc.)?

thanks :)

Amelia
Hi Amelia,

All inside and outside cuts I treated with heavily zinc loaded paint called galvanizing compound. http://www.rustoleum.com/product-catalog/consumer-brands/professional/galvanizing-compound-spray You can get this in a liquid form for a brush application. I use primarily spray and for some area I sprayed a little paint into a cap and use a brush. In some cases I use outdoor paint on top of the zinc coat.

For drilling chassis’ steel I did not use any lubricant so protective paint would stick.
I use polyurethane sealant in few places such as for mounting awning brackets. Polyurethane sealants are rather permanent, to remove you need to cut through it like seams on windshields.

I didn’t and don’t use silicone sealant on my previous RVs, boats, or current DIY. It is very difficult to remove once leak starts and a new sealant will not adhere to the old one.

Good luck with your build.

George.
 

GeorgeRa

2013 Sprinter DIY 144WB, Portland OR
Getting settled in our new home takes time but I am looking forward be able to work inside the garage on our Sprinter. First priority was building storage shelves, done, added 235 SF of shelves space between the floor and 12 foot high ceiling. Shelves are strong enough to climb on them without a ladder but I still prefer a ladder.

George.
 

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