no-start condition after many warnings

[piper1]

Jef, have you considered a vent like a Flettner?

http://www.flettner.co.uk/flettner_tcx.htm

I had one of these on my Sprinter. I don't think I was putting the humidity loads on my van that you are (I cooked in it once a day maybe 4-5 days a week) but it did a good job and it always runs and runs on free wind energy. The other nice side benefit is while driving down the road it would pull air through the vents and you hardly had to use the HVAC fan.

Glad to hear McCoy covered it all and got you fixed up.

 

[cedarsanctum]

Thanks Piper, i did look at those. Do you remember how much they cost?

My solution has been to add wind deflectors on both front doors, thereby allowing me to leave the front windows open a bit, even in the rain, for cross ventilation in the cab area. This seems to draw all moisture out pretty well without causing too much cold draft anywhere in the back.
I have a small solar powered fan that never got installed, but after playing with it in a on a scrap of plywood in the sunroof opening i'm not sure it's worth it, at least for heat extraction. It might work for moisture in the winter, but after examining it and using it a bit, decided it isn't worth cutting the hole for it. The windows open is doing the job, for now.

Jef

 

[piper1]

They were between $150 and $200 depending on where they came from. I bought mine in Quebec and paid $200.

 

[220629]

Thanks Piper, i did look at those. Do you remember how much they cost?

My solution has been to add wind deflectors on both front doors, thereby allowing me to leave the front windows open a bit, even in the rain, for cross ventilation in the cab area. This seems to draw all moisture out pretty well without causing too much cold draft anywhere in the back.

I also have vent shields on my front windows. I find them great for leaving the windows cracked open and keeping rain out while driving. I'd recommend them for all Sprinters, not just camper types.

I have a small solar powered fan that never got installed, but after playing with it in a on a scrap of plywood in the sunroof opening i'm not sure it's worth it, at least for heat extraction.
...
Jef

If it is similar to some of the solar powered vents which are used in sailboats I wouldn't discount its effectiveness. They do a good job on boats. It doesn't take much air flow to make a difference. Piper1's vent looks pretty impressive though.

We found with humidification and de-humidification in labs that humidity is easier to control than temperature. To keep temperatures fairly even you need to provide enough vents and circulation. To keep humidity fairly even in a space just adding or subtracting moisture in a small section seems to work because the moisture migrates around more easily and self regulates in the entire space. FWIW. vic

 

[showkey]

The official cause of the corrosion under the dash is from living and cooking in the van, according to McCoy. They were actually very good about it and covered the repairs under warranty, but added to the repair order that any future corrosion will not be covered under warranty.
Jef

If we see on relay failure on a "non-camper" model could we then say the official cause is not cooking or living in the van.
If the radio or doom light switch fails are you not covered by warranty now?????

Not to be a smart ass but I do not think the dealer did or is able to do a root cause analysis of the failed relay. Also the dealer can not change the warranty coverage or future coverage of any part................Only MB or FL or Dodge can deny or confirm coverage and denied or canceled waranty is a very tricky area for the manufacturer. ( Magnuson–Moss Warranty Act) This especially true because the van is being used as it was intended to be used as a camper. The other example would be a "home made camper" then coverages could be judged differently but again the dealer can only do as the "factory" requests.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnuson–Moss_Warranty_Act

 

[Graphite Dave]

Cut a hole in the floor. It works. See orton DIY - air vent. No problem with rain. Windows can be closed. Hot air goes up. Open front windows are up high so you do not get as much air flow as you do with floor opening to ceiling outlet. Air flow from floor goes past refrigerator coil and out the Maxxair fan opening. Works just like a house fireplace. Hot air rises. I leave Maxxair open when parked and driving. Maxxair has two supports so can be open when driving. Maxxair can be open in the rain. So far only turn fan on when returning to closed up van left sitting in sun. I guess I could leave fan on when parked. I do close the vent and Maxxair at night to retain the heat. Operate diesel heater before going to bed and program it to come on once at 2:00 am.
My house and barn both have openable windows up high and they work just like the van. Open a window at a low level and air will flow through the house and exit through the open window near the ceiling peak. I do live in a mild climate where the cool evenings can cool the house. No air conditioning.

 

[cedarsanctum]

If we see on relay failure on a "non-camper" model could we then say the official cause is not cooking or living in the van.
If the radio or doom light switch fails are you not covered by warranty now?????

Not to be a smart ass but I do not think the dealer did or is able to do a root cause analysis of the failed relay. Also the dealer can not change the warranty coverage or future coverage of any part................Only MB or FL or Dodge can deny or confirm coverage and denied or canceled waranty is a very tricky area for the manufacturer. ( Magnuson–Moss Warranty Act) This especially true because the van is being used as it was intended to be used as a camper. The other example would be a "home made camper" then coverages could be judged differently but again the dealer can only do as the "factory" requests.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnuson–Moss_Warranty_Act

Actually, the warranty ran out last January, and this problem was a left over from just before that event occurred. This repair was a "good will repair", paid for by the dealer. I'm afraid i have to agree with the analysis, i did have it very wet inside a couple of times before i finally started venting with the front windows, enough to leave visible stains on the headliner from the water running off the inside roof metal.
The overhead light console was an early victim of first the antennae leaking (covered under warranty), and then the condensation (not covered).
This van is a "home made camper", and overall isn't any different than a "factory built" camper as far as protection of factory components from moisture. I doubt that any RV manufacturer goes to any lengths to protect under dash wiring from excess water running down onto delicate circuit boards. This is just one more thing in the list of millions of little details that only experience will find. I do believe the electrical system should be a little more robust than it is, a drop of water on a circuit board should not be the death of said circuit board. I have added some shields and covers for some of these parts, where i can reach them.
Jef

 

[cedarsanctum]

Cut a hole in the floor. It works. See orton DIY - air vent. No problem with rain. Windows can be closed. Hot air goes up. Open front windows are up high so you do not get as much air flow as you do with floor opening to ceiling outlet. Air flow from floor goes past refrigerator coil and out the Maxxair fan opening. Works just like a house fireplace. Hot air rises. I leave Maxxair open when parked and driving. Maxxair has two supports so can be open when driving. Maxxair can be open in the rain. So far only turn fan on when returning to closed up van left sitting in sun. I guess I could leave fan on when parked. I do close the vent and Maxxair at night to retain the heat. Operate diesel heater before going to bed and program it to come on once at 2:00 am.
My house and barn both have openable windows up high and they work just like the van. Open a window at a low level and air will flow through the house and exit through the open window near the ceiling peak. I do live in a mild climate where the cool evenings can cool the house. No air conditioning.

I understand what you are doing with the hole in the floor, but i have found many places in the floor of the van with small holes (especially around the perimeter) that lets dust in freely and/or daylight can be seen from the inside.
What i'm working toward is a way to leave the sunroofs open in the rain. For the hot sunny days in the driveway (plugged in) i have a box fan sitting in the opening pulling air out. When camping, our climate is mild enough where we camp that the fan is not needed, most of the time. WHen it does get too hot, we find a higher elevation, or head for the coast. Cool weather is always available on the Oregon coast.
Jef

 

[cedarsanctum]

I also have vent shields on my front windows. I find them great for leaving the windows cracked open and keeping rain out while driving. I'd recommend them for all Sprinters, not just camper types.


If it is similar to some of the solar powered vents which are used in sailboats I wouldn't discount its effectiveness. They do a good job on boats. It doesn't take much air flow to make a difference. Piper1's vent looks pretty impressive though.

We found with humidification and de-humidification in labs that humidity is easier to control than temperature. To keep temperatures fairly even you need to provide enough vents and circulation. To keep humidity fairly even in a space just adding or subtracting moisture in a small section seems to work because the moisture migrates around more easily and self regulates in the entire space. FWIW. vic

The jury is still out on the solar vent. I think it would do a nice job for the moisture, just not sure it will work any better than the open windows. Cutting the hole in the roof, and then living with the noise of the fan, though small, doesn't seem necessary if the windows do the job just as well. I originally purchased the fan to help with heat extraction, and it's just too small for that job, can't keep up.
What you say here about keeping a small section vented to pull moisture out seems to be working fine. Next winter in the below freezing temps will be the real test, again. It worked fine last winter.
I agree with the vent shields, every Sprinter could benefit from these.
Jef

 

[showkey]

Actually, the warranty ran out last January, and this problem was a left over from just before that event occurred. This repair was a "good will repair", paid

Just a note on dealer "goodwill" dealers are often paid back by the factory, their local rep has control over factory "goodwill" often used used to cover "known issues", often used a split coverage with dealer, customer and factory covering a portion. Obvoiusly the dealer as independent business can over their own good will to their customer as they see fit at their expense.
Sound like you got a good servicing dealer.

Having a good business history helps with all kinds of goodwill because it must as the name implies it is decided on case by case basis......the goodwill terms are used to avoid "hidden warranty" coverage that are also used to cover known problems after warranty expires.

 

[Graphite Dave]

The floor air vent in my van has a cover that allows me to seal the hole. I used some soft closed cell foam around the opening perimeter to act as a gasket. I can feel the air flow with my hand at the floor vent when the vent and the Maxxair are open.

 

[OrioN]

... nice to hear your voice again...

so, to summarize our chat...

To 'control' the moisture (and I use the term as it's difficult to eliminate moisture when living in a temperate rain forest with temperaures below 8C or 45F and offgrid) I...

1) Cook with the MaxxFan on a good speed with an open intake vent to allow for maximum air throughput. I don't worry about heat loss, it becomes secondary to the bigger problem.

2) I use dehumidifying crystals like (Starbrite - No Damp, or Dry-Z-Air). Last fall for a brief 3 week period before heading south, I used one bucket and placed it next to my bed since the I create/exhale the moisture while sleeping. This year I will use 2 or 3 place Front, Mid and Aft, and as per recommended intructions use small low amp draw computer fans to circulate the air in the van over the containers.

3) I continually wipe all condensed water off any surfaces with towels and bag them (send to dryer next given chance)

Since I'm off grid, a 12Vdc or 120Vac dehumidifier is not an option. They draw huge loads, with some higher capacity one near AC like draws. If I plug in over this winter, I most certainly will get one.

 

[cedarsanctum]

The latest fun news on the electrical mysteries in Vanda Blue continues. Last Friday i headed out of town for an extended camp-out along the Hood River, and the ESP light came on the first time i started it, and a few times after that. This is the first trip since getting it back from the shop for the last repairs.
Fortunately it always started, but i sure am nervous every time i turn that key, watching for that glow plug light, hoping it will start.
Jef

 

[mmmttt]

Id like to follow-up on my non start issue. To recap, I turn the key, all the dash lights come on and the auxiliary fan comes on. The lights on the dash will not go out and I cannot start the vehicle. The oddity here is that it would not start for days and then mysteriously would start up until it decided not to start again. The last time was last week, stuck in Atlanta, I had it towed to what I found was a great mechanic in Alpharetta GA. The name of the place is German Tech. They had the vehicle for a week. Replaced the fuse block, replaced the ignition switch. The problem seems to have been resolved but he was awesome to install a bypass jumper wire in case the problem reoccurs. It seems that when the ignition switch was bypassed the van started without issue. Hence the replacement of the ignition switch. I cannot say enough good things about these guys. Anyone in the Atlanta area should check them out. Not only are they very smart, they were EXTREMELY reasonable. They had this van for 1 week, replaced an ignition switch and a board on the fuse block and my bill was barely 400.00.

 

[cedarsanctum]

As of Sunday morning, 11-6-11, the van has been refusing to activate the starter, again. This time the glow plug light works fine and no messages are showing, though the ESP light came on briefly again just before we left Saturday for a 100 mile trip. It made one short click, like a dead battery and it sounded like the starter area, the first time i tried it, and now it does nothing when the key is turned.
I have pulled relays and inspected wiring and can find nothing obvious. I suspected a dead battery, so i connected a jumper from the auxiliary battery to the jumper connection under the hood and let the 1.5 amp charger in the house system charge the battery overnight, got the battery volts up over 13, but even with the jumper still in place, it doesn't even try to start. I Haven't done a voltage drop test on the starter cable, but it visually looks fine, no signs of trouble from what i can see. Seems like they showed visible signs of damage when they go bad, or am i mistaken in that?
Anybody have any new thoughts? I will not take this back to McCoy any more, they have not been able to fix it, and will start charging me for whatever time it takes to chase down this new gremlin, if it is new.
I am frustrated to no end, and ready to get rid of this unreliable POS. I do not trust it any more, and would not feel safe going on a trip to the very places we bought it for.
Jef

 

[sikwan]

When faced with this situation, Jef, your only option IMHO is to bite the bullet and retrace the wiring.

1. Set aside a weekend. Forget about everything else.
2. Disconnect the battery.
3. Have a schematic on hand.
4. Have a multimeter on hand (voltage, resistance, & the beeper at the minimum).

It sounds like you have a contact / corrosion problem and there's no easy way to do it. You just can't do a visual. You need to verify the wiring, particularly the starter wiring from the key to the starter.

I would definitely help you out on this, but you're in Oregon and I'm in California.

 

[showkey]

I Haven't done a voltage drop test on the starter cable, but it visually looks fine, no signs of trouble from what i can see. Seems like they showed visible signs of damage when they go bad, or am i mistaken in that?
Anybody have any new thoughts? Jef

Voltage drop test is the best and fast way to check the connections and cables in the system.

I do remember at least one or more members finding poor contacts in the starter solenoid causing a no crank with little or other problems.

 

[suzieque]

As of Sunday morning, 11-6-11, the van has been refusing to activate the starter, again. This time the glow plug light works fine and no messages are showing, though the ESP light came on briefly again just before we left Saturday for a 100 mile trip. It made one short click, like a dead battery and it sounded like the starter area, the first time i tried it, and now it does nothing when the key is turned.
I have pulled relays and inspected wiring and can find nothing obvious. I suspected a dead battery, so i connected a jumper from the auxiliary battery to the jumper connection under the hood and let the 1.5 amp charger in the house system charge the battery overnight, got the battery volts up over 13, but even with the jumper still in place, it doesn't even try to start. I Haven't done a voltage drop test on the starter cable, but it visually looks fine, no signs of trouble from what i can see. Seems like they showed visible signs of damage when they go bad, or am i mistaken in that?
Anybody have any new thoughts? I will not take this back to McCoy any more, they have not been able to fix it, and will start charging me for whatever time it takes to chase down this new gremlin, if it is new.
I am frustrated to no end, and ready to get rid of this unreliable POS. I do not trust it any more, and would not feel safe going on a trip to the very places we bought it for.
Jef

maybe have a read of this 3.0L TSB, doesn't hurt to check...

http://www.wkjeeps.com/misc/LX/TSB_300C_Forums/Rapid_Response_09052a.pdf

 

[jdcaples]

<snip>
I Haven't done a voltage drop test on the starter cable, but it visually looks fine, no signs of trouble from what i can see. Seems like they showed visible signs of damage when they go bad, or am i mistaken in that?
<snip>

For me and for shanemac: visible damage lead us to replace our starter cables.

... but we don't know that visible damage to the insluation always happens before the cable goes bad.

The last time I talked to John Bendit about this, he mentioned moister getting onto the copper strands from the inline fuse junction and corroding the conductor.

I don't know if damaged (burned/heated/peeling off) insulation happens after corrosion starts or not.

For me, I checked the voltage at the alternator, then on the far side of the cable's inline fuse at the starter post/jumpstart post and then at the positive side of the starter battery under the floor boards.

I agree with sikwan and showkey. Check for voltage drop and then own the electrical problem; don't let it own you....

Jef, you have so many hours into your very well-executed conversion. If it were me, I'd spend maybe 5% of the total conversion hours on this problem before dismantling the camper and disposing of the vehicle.

-Jon

 

[cedarsanctum]

Jef, you have so many hours into your very well-executed conversion. If it were me, I'd spend maybe 5% of the total conversion hours on this problem before dismantling the camper and disposing of the vehicle.

-Jon

Well, lets see; If i take 5% of total conversion time, that would be about 100 hours. Who has that kind of time?
Kidding.

I will spend some time searching wiring. I have never been able to get a decent wiring diagram for this vehicle. Being a Mac user, the service manual CD will not work for me, so i'll have to feel my way around this in the dark. At least that's something i'm very familiar with, i did specialize in vehicle wiring for a short part of my technician days (all pre computer vehicles, how different can they be?).

I really don't have much choice. I park this thing in my driveway in such a way, i'm not sure a tow truck could get it out without damaging something.

Thanks for all the ideas. I will keep posting results and findings.
Jef