no-start condition after many warnings

cedarsanctum

re: Member
Our NCV3 has just passed 20,000 miles in 3-1/2 years. During that time, mostly in the last year, i have had times when the ESP,ABS, Traction control, and sometimes the cruise control malfunctions happen all at once, lighting up the dash with all kinds of warnings about getting service soon. The only problem the dealer has been able to find was a temp sensor somewhere that didn't seem related to any of these malfunctions.

On the last trip to my work in the mountains it flashed all those warning on a start up, but turning the van off and restarting made them go away with no malfunctions showing at all. Then, on the way home in the least traveled part of a back mountain road, we pulled over to enjoy the view. When i tried to restart it, i got the ESP, ABS and traction control warnings, and no starting. Not even a click when turned to start. ALso, the glow plug light didn't come on as it should. I tried connecting my PLX/iPhone diagnostic device (forgetting momentarily that i had the iPhone wifi turned off) and couldn't get a signal from the computer through the OBDII port.

After fiddling with it for about 30 minutes, and looking for a ride (10 miles back to nearest phone, 20 miles to nearest small town, 100 miles from home), suddenly the iPhone connected, the glow plug light came on, and it started right up with NO malfunctions showing up in the display. I thought great, we can get home at least. But nature calls on long drives down mountain roads, and when we pulled over, for some reason i turned it off again, probably just to see if it would reoccur, and sure enough it would not start again. Same conditions, all the warnings, no glow plug light, and no sound from the starter. This time i didn't feel so panicked and waited patiently about 25 minutes, and when the glow plug light came on it started right up.

I'm thinking heat related failure of a circuit board or sensor (except i can't think of a sensor that would cause a no-start condition) or some strange thing that will not show up when taken to the dealer. So i carefully parked it on the street when we got home, instead of the driveway where it would never get removed by a tow truck. This morning it did it first time i tried to start it cold, no glow plug light, and no sound from the starter. Turned the key off and right back on and it started right up.

Any ideas/suggestions out there. I have an appointment at the dealer tomorrow morning and will update this post if they find anything. This time i insisted time to talk to the technician to explain all the symptoms instead of trying to relay it through the service dummy, i mean advisor, like before.
Jef
 

jdcaples

Not Suitable w/220v Gen
Logical drawing of the controllers on the NCV3 (US/Canada) network.

Network-View.jpg

The EISCGW is wired up to the OBD port.

I think it's involved, but it's a gut feeling, not a logical conclusion.

Attached is the Description and Operation of the EISCGW.

You're smarter than I am Jef, so I figure you can quickly discount my gut reaction or take it to the next level.


-Jon
 

Attachments

hayduke

2005/2006 leisure travel
I dont know anything about Sprinters, but I did have a long list of multiple malfunctions in a VW Eurovan (except for the glow plugs) that turned out to be a little plastic $5 part behind the ignition switch..............which is why it wouldnt start
 

cedarsanctum

re: Member
Thanks Jon for that wonderful reading material, but i'm not sure where your getting your information about my smarts.
Your gut feeling is better educated than mine on this, but what i see in that diagram, and what i experienced on the road, leads me to agree with your gut. It does give me something to check out.
If i get some time i'll dive into the attachment and try to understand it. Unfortunately, i have another really big show to get ready for, and this is coming at me at a bad time.
Jef
 

cedarsanctum

re: Member
Wiring bundle somewhere chaffing? Connector not firmly seated.
If i had the time right now, i would be looking for just that. If it's not one of those, my suspicion is a faulty circuit board. I'm giving McCoy one more try at this, hopefully they'll find something this time.
Thanks
Jef
 

Studio718

New member
I had that problem once where the ABS/ESP/Traction control came on.
Then the van wouldn't start.

Turns out my alternator was dying and wasn't charging the battery for quite some time.
 

jdcaples

Not Suitable w/220v Gen
Battery voltage and that stupid (alternator -> fuse -> starter Y "jump start post && on to the battery") cable is something to check.

I figured your OBD connection failure means the EISCGW is associated. If the EISCGW is not the culprit it's at least victimized by another component failure, be that wiring as sikwan said, or an electronic failure in the neighborhood, as you indicated.


Good luck at McCoy. Get a hard copy of an MB SDS system scan and push to insert yourself in the diagnostic process so you can tell us what you learned; no sense in letting the tuition of the service bill fail to teach you (and us! :) ) something.

-Jon

PS: looking at the network diagram, the EISCGW is wired to the same bus as the engine control module (ECM) and the radio/switchblock module (all those buttons above the gear shift), HVAC and aux engine heating module (AEHM). Do any of those components to the right of the EISCGW work during your no start issue?

That'll narrow it down to hardware on the main bus (engine(ECM), transmission(TCM), steering column (SCM), electronic shifting module (ESM which decides "am I in [p]ark or [n]eutral so I can start?") etc. CCN means "cabin compartment node," which is German Daimler for instrument cluster control module.
 
Last edited:

showkey

Well-known member
I am thinking sticky main power relay somewhere.

Next time it happens start tapping on all the relays (in both fuse boxes)

or rapid key on-off cycles to see if you can get the relay to close contacts.
 

cedarsanctum

re: Member
Back from the dealer with some hopeful results. Found the same trouble codes as the last 2 times in for this problem, and it all pointed to a "CAN bus - No CAN message from control unit N70 (OCP [DBE] control unit)". This fault showed up in the OBF upper control panel, the SAM signal acquisition and actuation module, the ESP, the EGS, and a host of other smaller parts.

Turns out the fault led to a relay under the dash that is the point it all goes through, and after it was removed it showed corrosion on the terminals creeping down from inside the relay. I didn't get the part, but it was a $26 relay, and the tech said it's the 3rd time he's seen this.

Fortunately, this was not the first time i had reported this problem. It occurred exactly 1 month before the 3 years of the warranty expired, and once again after that, and McCoy recorded it both times. Because of that, they covered this repair on warranty. Unfortunately, i didn't get the part to examine, or the part number, though it looked like a standard relay.

My thanks to McCoy for pulling through with the service. I hope this fixes it. Being stuck along a deserted back road is no fun.
Jef
 

jdcaples

Not Suitable w/220v Gen
Thanks, Jef!

-Jon
 

sikwan

06 T1N Can
Fortunately, this was not the first time i had reported this problem. It occurred exactly 1 month before the 3 years of the warranty expired, and once again after that, and McCoy recorded it both times.
Same problem, different culprit or same problem, same culprit?

If it's the third time that the tech has seen this, does he/she know where the corrosion is coming from? Corrosion internally or externally on th relay terminals?
 

cedarsanctum

re: Member
Same problem, different culprit or same problem, same culprit?

If it's the third time that the tech has seen this, does he/she know where the corrosion is coming from? Corrosion internally or externally on th relay terminals?
This problem had the same trouble codes show up all 3 times, showing the same conditions, that's why they ended up covering it under warranty.
The corrosion was inside the relay, creeping down the spade of the terminal. I wish i could have seen inside that relay. Ryan didn't know what caused it, but he has seen it before. Maybe a bad batch of relays?

This is certainly something that should be looked at when experiencing a no-start condition like this. Pulling the relays and looking down the terminals where they go inside the relay there would be green corrosion on the internal components.
Jef
 

cedarsanctum

re: Member
I did get a printout of all the fault codes, 3 pages long, but i don't have a scanner easily available. I know the relay was under the steering column, but not exactly where. None of the data i have includes the part number or the specific relay info.
Jef
 

upnorth

New member
Hi Jef. After reading your posts and observing the problem on my Sprinter I noticed the same thing. I really never payed attention to the glow plug light but noticed when the light comes on my temp overheat display also goes away and the van will start.

Do you thing you can call the tech to find out where the relay is and or the part #. I looked under the dash I don't see anything. I may have to take some plastic off to get a better look.

Bob
 

cedarsanctum

re: Member
He did take some plastic off.
Right now i don't have time to pursue this, i have a big show coming up in 2 weeks. I'll try to get back to it afterwards.
Jef
 

jdcaples

Not Suitable w/220v Gen
<snip> pointed to a "CAN bus - No CAN message from control unit N70 (OCP [DBE] control unit)". This fault showed up in the OBF upper control panel, the SAM signal acquisition and actuation module, the ESP, the EGS, and a host of other smaller parts.

Turns out the fault led to a relay under the dash that is the point it all goes through <snip>


<snip>Unfortunately, i didn't get the part to examine, or the part number, though it looked like a standard relay.


Jef


Jef's description says, "CAN bus - No CAN message from control unit N70 (OCP Control unit [DBE])"

I've marked up the StarMOBILE Desktop Client Network View with the locations of Jef's problem citation.


Network-View.jpg

DBE == MB for Roof Control Module (Dodge:RCM) It is in the housing where the reading lights are found, over head, on the head liner, just below the external antenna

Jef says there were faults in:

SAM == MB for Body Control Module (Dodge:BCM)

ESP == MB for Anti-Lock Braking System Module (Dodge:ABS)

EGS == MB for Transmission Contol Module (Dodge:TCM)

OBF == Switch Block Module (Dodge:SBM) found in the center console - a bank of switches with LEDs - just above the gear shifter, controls heated seats, door locks, I forget what else.


I can't find this error message, " CAN bus - No CAN message from control unit N70 (OCP [DBE] control unit" in "The Complete Sprinter Fault Guide Volume 2: 2007-2010 by Eric J Ord North American Edition" (isbn: 978-1453745090)

http://www.amazon.com/Complete-Spri..._2?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1309117219&sr=1-2

Someone with Eric's Service Manual CD (sold on E-bay to a number of members) should look up diagnosing the above cited electronic control modules; see if you can find the most likely relay so we can all go check ours.

-Jon
 

cedarsanctum

re: Member
I have been away for 2 weeks working, but on the way up here, the van had a no start condition again, in the middle of US 26 going up to Mt Hood while stopped waiting for a construction zone (you know, stop the motor while waiting to avoid idling). Same situation, ESP and SRS lights on dash, no glow plug light. Waited 45 minutes, after pushing it off the road, and still no start so i started pulling relays under the dash and wiggling everything. That got it going, but every time i turn it off, same thing, no start. Pulling the first relay i can reach and reinserting it makes it start, has about 8 times now. It will be interesting to see if it will start after sitting for 2 weeks with us living in it.
Back to McCoy, hoping warranty will still cover it since it's the same problem that isn't getting fixed. Guess i need to look into that lemon law.
Jef
 

upnorth

New member
If you switch the relay with one of the other two that are beside it it should start every time. You will get different errors but it will start. I keep two extra relays in my van now at $38.00 each it gives me peace of mind. I did read in a post on Edmund's that the fuse blocks can be bad and cause premature failure of the relays. That person said to replace the fuse block as it came with new relays etc. I have not seen anything about that on this forum.

See my post #50 to see what I found the relays to control.

https://sprinter-source.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16408&page=5

Bob
 

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