Mercedes has reliability issues.

[woodjoints]

Could reliability issues cost Mercedes the championship?

Nine races in, Mercedes' comfortable gap in the title race has dwindled. Can the team find a fix soon?

www.espn.com

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Yes, things have gotten worse since Dieter Zetsche retired. Ola Källenius is a bloody fool.

 

[Kajtek1]

Don't know about getting worse.
Don't recall 1980's cars having 8 air bags and 4 cameras around.
Sure more complicated technology has more things to fail, but even some members drive vehicles with 200-300,000 miles on them, we don't hear about engines blowing up right and left.
I still remember, that 30 years ago, average car life expectancy in Europe was 7 years, when now I am getting 17 years old car fixed under warranty.
You want vehicle, where not too many parts break- buy Yugo.

 

[3Play]

Don't know about getting worse.
Don't recall 1980's cars having 8 air bags and 4 cameras around.
Sure more complicated technology has more things to fail, but even some members drive vehicles with 200-300,000 miles on them, we don't hear about engines blowing up right and left.
I still remember, that 30 years ago, average car life expectancy in Europe was 7 years, when now I am getting 17 years old car fixed under warranty.
You want vehicle, where not too many parts break- buy Yugo.

A guy walks into the parts store and asks the parts guy:

"Do you have a gas tank cap for an 87 Yugo?"


The parts guy says, "Yeah, it's a fair trade"...................

 

[Kajtek1]

Still remember, when Yugo was offered free, with motorhome purchase.
I had Yugoslavian friend in CA and helped him to do brakes on his Yugo.
He loved it.
As for cars holding their value in USA -lot of outcomes have "political" explanation.
I was buying 1980's diesel Peugeots back in 1990's for just few hundred$$.
The cars were very advanced for the era, having electric windows, sensor on brake pads and very comfortable seating.
Reliability was excellent, but with lack of dealership, non-DIY owners had to get rid of them.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Don't know about getting worse.
Don't recall 1980's cars having 8 air bags and 4 cameras around.
Sure more complicated technology has more things to fail, but even some members drive vehicles with 200-300,000 miles on them, we don't hear about engines blowing up right and left.
I still remember, that 30 years ago, average car life expectancy in Europe was 7 years, when now I am getting 17 years old car fixed under warranty.
You want vehicle, where not too many parts break- buy Yugo.

Sure, that argument might have applied to the 210, or the 211, or the 212, or maybe even the 213. But the 214?

That's just junk.

 

[Kajtek1]

I am happy with my W212, who at 12 years still look like new and with my mileage, the engine should last another 200 years.
So can't say much about W213 or 214, but each new models is always having bad publicity when it hits the market.
We bought our W163 in 2nd year of production.
The new technology car had red reviews all over the charts.
Yet I still see those cars on the road almost 30 years later. My friend sold 1 with 320,000 miles on it, still running OK

 

[Green Maned Lion]

I am happy with my W212, who at 12 years still look like new and with my mileage, the engine should last another 200 years.
So can't say much about W213 or 214, but each new models is always having bad publicity when it hits the market.
We bought our W163 in 2nd year of production.
The new technology car had red reviews all over the charts.
Yet I still see those cars on the road almost 30 years later. My friend sold 1 with 320,000 miles on it, still running OK

The 163 wasn't a bad car, but it was chintzy. Especially pre-facelift.

Have you tried to drive a 214? Have you tried to use their infotainment controls? The logic of the layout? The lack of space? The ponderous size? The back-breaking ride? My Sprinter rides better than a 214!

 

[eurodude]

And lot of engine parts are made out of plastic.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

And lot of engine parts are made out of plastic.

Plastic doesn’t have to be bad. But the stuff MB chose for the M274 is schweinescheiße.

 

[eurodude]

Plastic doesn’t have to be bad. But the stuff MB chose for the M274 is schweinescheiße.

Dude, you aren't German LOL, lame.

Plastic is bad wherever is HEAT. You, as a so called diesel worshipper, you should know how much heat modern diesel emit during regeneration. That can't be good for plastics under the hood, long term.

 

[Kajtek1]

The main problem with plastic is fact, that you can't estimate its quality without a lab.
I bought cargo trailer and the roof vent cover, turned into dust after 2 years. My pool plumbing covers changed the color after 3 years and I painted them for protection.
Than about 12 years ago, I bought plastic garden benches at Home Depot.
I moved them from my CA house to Las Vegas house and they sit in direct sunlight, still being solid.
Mercedes was using different suppliers over the years for plastic parts.
W124, car build in late 1980's and 1990's had the best plastic and rubber parts per my experience.
In the past, I was going to Junk Yards and pulling matching, 30 years old parts to replace those 5-8 years old identical parts on my newer MB.
It was late 1990's, early 2000's when MB cars were "famous" for broken window regulators, electrical grommets deteriorating, plastic holders breaking like crazy.
The 2010's cars have those parts much better.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Dude, you aren't German LOL, lame.

Plastic is bad wherever is HEAT. You, as a so called diesel worshipper, you should know how much heat modern diesel emit during regeneration. That can't be good for plastics under the hood, long term.

There are plastics and composites that do better with certain levels of heat cycling than metal does. That's what I know. Plastic is not one material; its an almost infinite number of different chemical compounds, some of which are better at handling certain amounts of heat.

I can't think of any off hand that are better at handling the kinds of heat created under DPF regeneration burns, no. Plastic is a poor material choice for that circumstance. However, I object to the general idea that metal = good and plastic = bad. That's all I was commenting on. There are plenty of circumstances where plastic is a better material for a given application than metal.

 

[Kajtek1]

Plastics are used becouse they are much cheaper, than metal.
I am old enough to remember big shock, our mechanical community got, when we saw 1st (German-made) hand tools with plastic gears inside.
Now, it does not take much imagination to compare metal gears, who need to be casted, machined on several expensive mills and then being heavier, require heavier housing design.
Plastic gears are molded and end of the story.
But, at the end, you might have different experience.
Over a decade ago, I made gift to my wife, what was Kitchen Aid, Professional food processor.
The machine has metal gears, with only 1 plastic wheel inside.
I replaced the plastic gear twice already, when all metal gears perform fine.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Plastics are used becouse they are much cheaper, than metal.
I am old enough to remember big shock, our mechanical community got, when we saw 1st (German-made) hand tools with plastic gears inside.
Now, it does not take much imagination to compare metal gears, who need to be casted, machined on several expensive mills and then being heavier, require heavier housing design.
Plastic gears are molded and end of the story.
But, at the end, you might have different experience.
Over a decade ago, I made gift to my wife, what was Kitchen Aid, Professional food processor.
The machine has metal gears, with only 1 plastic wheel inside.
I replaced the plastic gear twice already, when all metal gears perform fine.

Plastic is not always cheaper than metal, Kajtek.

It has other advantages; it is lighter, and heft is not always desirable. It typically does not corrode nearly as much, if at all, compared to most metals, so that in certain envionments, it is better. For example, a good quality plastic fuel tank is better than a metal one. The big problem with plastic is that over time, under more normal conditions, it tends to degrade in a way that well protected metal does not.

So, for example, a decent plastic fueltank is more likely to survive the rigors of abusive use for the duration that a car is expected to last... but is less likely to survive as long as a metal tank would on a car that has been very well treated over a period of time 2 or 3 times the vehicles expected average service life. Its a trade off. Metal requires more lubrication than plastic; if you trust the user to properly lubricate the gear, than metal is better. If you expect the user to not every perform that kind of maintenance, the plastic will last a lot longer than the gear will without maintenance.

Obviously, for example, a lubricated chassis is more durable than a rubber or plastic non-lubricated part. But the plastic or rubber part does not need lubrication at all. So which lasts longer and is better is a question of just how long it is going to be in service, and whether or not the person using it is diligent enough to engage in that required maintenance. Given the average American's maintenance practices, and the length of service for a car crammed full of computers and capacitors, a lubricated chassis is inferior in that application.

Which material is better depends on its precise use case and application. Generalisations are not wise for this.

 

[eurodude]

Plastic is not always cheaper than metal, Kajtek.

It has other advantages; it is lighter, and heft is not always desirable. It typically does not corrode nearly as much, if at all, compared to most metals, so that in certain envionments, it is better. For example, a good quality plastic fuel tank is better than a metal one. The big problem with plastic is that over time, under more normal conditions, it tends to degrade in a way that well protected metal does not.

So, for example, a decent plastic fueltank is more likely to survive the rigors of abusive use for the duration that a car is expected to last... but is less likely to survive as long as a metal tank would on a car that has been very well treated over a period of time 2 or 3 times the vehicles expected average service life. Its a trade off. Metal requires more lubrication than plastic; if you trust the user to properly lubricate the gear, than metal is better. If you expect the user to not every perform that kind of maintenance, the plastic will last a lot longer than the gear will without maintenance.

Obviously, for example, a lubricated chassis is more durable than a rubber or plastic non-lubricated part. But the plastic or rubber part does not need lubrication at all. So which lasts longer and is better is a question of just how long it is going to be in service, and whether or not the person using it is diligent enough to engage in that required maintenance. Given the average American's maintenance practices, and the length of service for a car crammed full of computers and capacitors, a lubricated chassis is inferior in that application.

Which material is better depends on its precise use case and application. Generalisations are not wise for this.

Water pump on OM651 had plastic housing. Upgraded for aluminium one.

When was the last time you opened the hood on modern MB and inspected engine for few minutes?

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Water pump on OM651 had plastic housing. Upgraded for aluminium one.

When was the last time you opened the hood on modern MB and inspected the engine for few minutes?

I didn't say I was impressed by it, did I?

Its just better than everyone else.

 

[eurodude]

I didn't say I was impressed by it, did I?

Its just better than everyone else.

That's not what I asked.

Not to be impressed but to look what parts are made of, for example.

 

[Kajtek1]

I did have plastic water pump impeller on my W210 diesel.
It lasted till my wife drive put her into transmission limp mode and she revved it high. The plastic impeller simply granaded and I replaced it with metal one.
But on other hand, look about new opportunities plastic brought.
Try to make saddle tank modern cars have with metal.
I am amazed how MB made 20 gallons tank on mid-size sedan, or 26 gallons on mid-size SUV.
That was impossible at steel tanks era.
Sprinter tanks, even not as complicated as those in sedans, don't have easy to make shape as well.

 

[eralimited57]

On my 2004 Acura TL interior the plastic trim looks like brand new. Not so on my 2008 sprinter the plastic trim has deteriorated you can take your fingernail and pick on it and remove tiny pieces of plastic. Why is it that Honda can engineer and specify plastic that lasts and looks like new well over 20 years later when Mercedes can't even come close to plastic longevity. Both have been parked outside most of their lives.