Owl Open Box Policy - Buyer Beware

blutow

Well-known member
TLDR version -
Be aware that all of Owl Van's open box items are sold "as-is" with zero warranty and no promise that they even work or match the description under the item. This isn't a complaint about Owl, just a PSA that I hope might prevent others from making the same dumb mistake I did.

Details for anyone who cares about specifics -
I recently bought an "open box" item from Owl. It was a rear storage box and the description said it had some paint scratches. It was about $60 less than an unblemished one and they had pictures of it and it looked fine. On stuff like this, I know I'll be dinging it up during use anyway, so why not save the $60?

What I didn't notice was the language saying all open box items are "as is" and sales are final and you have zero warranty regardless of what they put in the description. That language wasn't on the main display page for the item, but was included on a warranty "tab" you had to click on within the page for that item. I had actually checked under their main warranty page just to make sure blemished items still came with a warranty, but I never saw or clicked on the separate warranty page that was hanging off the item. My bad, but I think they should have better highlighted it.

When the box arrived, it had the paint scratches that I expected, but the entire box body was bent/racked and a couple of the corners dented in from being dropped really hard or crushed. It wouldn't have been that noticeable except the door of the box wasn't bent, so the door and box didn't line up at all. I called Owl and they sent me over the langauge saying "as is, no warranty, no returns". We went back and forth on it a couple times before I actually found the policy on their website and they were cool about it being not so obvious and offered to let me return it (at my cost) and pay the difference for an unblemished unit. I asked if I could just take it to the local Owl install center in Austin (to avoid having to ship back), but they said no. I ended up fixing the box good enough with a sledge hammer and some blocks of wood to take most of the racking out and now the door and box are decently aligned. So, it all worked out, but it wasn't a great experience.

Anyways, I'm not here to complain about owl, I think they actually handled it ok (not great, but not terrible IMO). I do think they need to better highlight the open box policy, but the language was there and it's ultimately bad on me for not finding it I guess. But I assume that others could miss it as well, so I thought I'd post something here to be aware. Their "open box" items are basically a crap shoot and the discounts are tiny compared to the risk you are taking on. There is no way I would have bought the blemished box for only a ~$60 discount if I had known it had zero warranty and no guarantee it even worked or matched the description.
 

Midwestdrifter

Engineer In Residence
Obvious read the fine print. But many (most?) vendors sell open box products with a touch more honesty. Open box typically means lightly used, but otherwise serviceable. Sometimes missing hardware or accessories, display models, etc.

Selling unusable products as "open box" is at best poor wording, and at worst downright scummy. I get the no warranty part. But when you open the box to find garbage, they should refund you.

As-is should be as-shipped. With rare exceptions.
 
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blutow

Well-known member
Selling unusable products as "open box" is at best poor wording, and at worst downright scummy. I get the no warranty part. But when you open the box to find garbage, they should refund you.
I'll give them the benefit of the doubt that they didn't notice how bent the box was. And the door did operate fine since it's flush fitting. The door just highlighted how bent the box was since the door was still a rectangle and the box face was not. It you didn't look at the box face and just saw it from above, you might have missed how bent/racked it was. My main complaint was that the "as is" language wasn't front and center and they were going to make an exception to their policy to at least allow the return (but with me paying shipping). But I do think it's a bit deceptive, especially when the discount is so small. With only a $60 discount, I can't imagine anyone would buy something if they actually read the language saying no warranty and no promise that the item matches the description. I do take some responsibility for not clicking/reading the warranty tab hanging off the item, but I just assumed the warranty link on the bottom of the main page would have covered the item on the page. My only feedback to them was they need to put that language more front and center. It's been a couple weeks and they have not changed their website, so I figured it was worth posting this as a PSA for the forum.
 

blutow

Well-known member
Just to highlight - if you click the "warranty policy" link at the bottom of this page (under the help menu), there are no limitations for open box items.

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But if you click on the "owl warranty" link here (under the returns section), the open box language is included. Ironically, the returns section highlights the ability to return for up to 30 days, but then if you click on the owl warranty link right below that it says there are no returns. This should be as simple as some web page cleanup and consistent warranty language in both spots to make things crystal clear.

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marklg

Well-known member
Saying "as is" doesn't negate something being not as described. That's misrepresentation or even fraud. They would do better to just accept a return without argument. They are on my list never to buy from.

Let me describe a different business philosophy. I get stuff from Nellis Auctions. They have auctions in various cities of mostly Amazon returns. You pick up what you get locally. They do a good job of disclosing any issues. If it's damaged, they say so. Their policy is you have a week to return it, for any reason, for a full refund. Now, if you are a serial returner, eventually they will ban you. But one here and there, every month or so, no problem. They do a crap ton of business. You catch more flies with honey.

Regards,

Mark
 
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klempak

Active member
Ok, everybody is saying made in USA, suport local business, but this is not acceptable, sorry folks. They sell way overprice stuff and that is fine but Owl have to take care of customers, period. And this is not the first time I am making comment about this. I have no problem if they charge arm and leg but make sure the customer is always happy they have enough margins to cover the cost.
 

Kajtek1

1922 Ford T. No OBD
IMHO no reputable business would do something like that to start with.
Small recovered cost brings very bad publicity. They probably collected on shipping insurance and sold the item again.
Isn't that insurance fraud?
In another words, that might be a sign, that supplier goes down.
I am buying open box items on amazon, but with Prime, they always give me a month for free returns.
 
IMHO no reputable business would do something like that to start with.
Small recovered cost brings very bad publicity. They probably collected on shipping insurance and sold the item again.
Isn't that insurance fraud?
In another words, that might be a sign, that supplier goes down.
I am buying open box items on amazon, but with Prime, they always give me a month for free returns.
I ordered a GPD Pocket 4 computer last week on Amazon totaling in excess of $1700 dollars. I added it to my cart and paid in full using my CC.
Thirty minutes later i get an email from Amazon that my order has been canceled and that i was not billed for the order and if i wish to re-order i must submit a copy of a state issued ID such as a drivers license and other conditions. Needless to say i terminated my Amazon account as soon as i verified with the bank that i was not charged. It isnt the first time i have had issues with Amazon.
 

Kajtek1

1922 Ford T. No OBD
I ordered a GPD Pocket 4 computer last week on Amazon totaling in excess of $1700 dollars. I added it to my cart and paid in full using my CC.
Thirty minutes later i get an email from Amazon that my order has been canceled and that i was not billed for the order and if i wish to re-order i must submit a copy of a state issued ID such as a drivers license and other conditions. Needless to say i terminated my Amazon account as soon as i verified with the bank that i was not charged. It isnt the first time i have had issues with Amazon.
So you close each bank account, once they ask you for identification?
Who's problem exactly it is?
 
So you close each bank account, once they ask you for identification?
Who's problem exactly it is?
Are you clinically retarded? Asking a consumer to send a digital copy of an ID accomplishes absolutely nothing beyond incoveniencing the consumer. Amazon has absolutely no way of verifying who is on the other end of the internet. They dont have access to DMV records. How do you think me sending amazon a copy of a drivers license prevents fraud or theft? The only way asking for a drivers license is a valid request is if that person is physically standing immediately in front of you so that his/her face can be compared to the photo on his/her identification.

I can goto the store lose my wallet and some kid picks it up and runs home to start ordering stuff on amazon. He has my drivers license, he has my credit cards, etc.... it accomplishes NOTHING in terms of preventing or stopping theft and fraud. It does however give amazon private information about me that they arent entitled to have so that they can enter it into their database and sell off to third parties. Amazon isnt a bank nor is amazon a convenience or requirement in my day to day life.

The only reason i ordered the computer via amazon was to sidestep tarriffs that are being imposed on goods imported from China and the UK

When a company starts making demands of me on the internet i cancel them and make my purchases elsewhere. I stopped using facebook long ago for the same reasons. Facebook started asking people for copies of drivers licenses or photo ID's, then they started demanding that you create a video of your face in different positions. You think im going to go to all of that trouble just so i can post photos of myself and friends for people i dont know to look at? The internet just isnt that overly important to me on a day to day basis. I do not use online banking, i do not pay my bills on the internet, and i have no real desire to share my personal photos, family members names and photos, address, phone number, birth date, birth place, social security number, credit card number, with the rest of the world and any random company just because they asked or demanded it.
 
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Kajtek1

1922 Ford T. No OBD
Wouldn't you live under the rock, you'd notice that double verifications become very common those days.
With all those hacking you hear about, I can only appreciate it, although when I am trying to pay for something from my cabin, with no phone service, that often is a hassle.
 
Youre the kinda guy that buys a pair of socks at the local shoe store and gives the cashier his full name, address, phone number, and zip code at checkout just because the company makes her ask for it, as if your signing up to finance a pair of socks. Then piss and moan because your phone wont stop blowing up for the next three months and you dont have a clue why.

You likely have a perks card from every single retail outlet in the county so you can save 50 cents on your 10th cup of coffee at the gas station in exchange for them tracking every gallon of gas you buy, where you buy it, what time you buy it, how frequently you buy it.

The perks card at the local grocery store so they can track exactly what you buy, how much you buy, when you buy, where you buy, what time you buy, and how frequently you buy, what you eat, what you drink, what toilet paper you use, etc....

Youre that guy that thinks they give you those perks cards because they love you and just want to save you a penny or two on your next visit.
 
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If a person reads this entire load of garbage you must conclude that Amazon will not let me purchase "anything"
without me sending them my ID. Once amazon recieves my ID they then direct me to an outside "third party" who
supposedly verifies my identity without so much as ever having seen me before in their life.

They have absolutely no way of verifying that i am the actual person on the internet placing that order not even with
copy of my drivers license.
Capture.PNG
 
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Kajtek1

1922 Ford T. No OBD
If a person reads this entire load of garbage you must conclude that Amazon will not let me purchase "anything"
without me sending them my ID.
and who would blame them?
I am amazon Prime member for about 10 years and don't recall giving them my ID ever.
Even when I am sending packages to my family members all over the World.
Amazon CC gives 5% back.
 
I couldnt help notice that OWL is now selling a front bumper that looks nearly identical to the front bumper FlatLine Vans has been selling for quite some time now.flatline.pngowl.png
 
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Sonntag69

Well-known member
Owl is currently in process on copying all the suspension and armor products that VC developed and sold to them for the past 6 years. Pretty lame.
Well, if that's the game their playing, maybe you can contact White Top Adventures and partner with them on specific items to undersell even Owl. Or change your marketing and include the words "The Original [item name]!" for your products. Completely legal and falls under the marketing legalese "puffery".

These practices are nothing new and I recall during mountain biking's peak how garage-based inventors came up with some great ideas that were copied by the big boys. That was more than 30 years ago. What's changed is accessibility to overseas producers and WTA seems to have this figured out. I mean geez, they're selling ALUMINUM sidesteps that copy portions of the mounting design from two well-known companies for under $1k.
 
Well, if that's the game their playing, maybe you can contact White Top Adventures and partner with them on specific items to undersell even Owl. Or change your marketing and include the words "The Original [item name]!" for your products. Completely legal and falls under the marketing legalese "puffery".

These practices are nothing new and I recall during mountain biking's peak how garage-based inventors came up with some great ideas that were copied by the big boys. That was more than 30 years ago. What's changed is accessibility to overseas producers and WTA seems to have this figured out. I mean geez, they're selling ALUMINUM sidesteps that copy portions of the mounting design from two well-known companies for under $1k.
It doesnt take much to undersell OWL, have you looked at their prices?
 

Sonntag69

Well-known member
It doesnt take much to undersell OWL, have you looked at their prices?
I'm a sucker for value and supplier-side innovation...not just design innovation.

Yah, but no one but WTA is doing it. Again, look at their sidesteps. $1k, all aluminum with mounts that copy Backland Expedition Gear and CaV. Also note that $1k INCLUDES shipping (not sure about tax). They have the supply-side buttoned down.

Granted, the driver's side doesn't extend all the way towards the rear wheel and that need is purely subjective.

Going further, their updated low profile roof rack with an aluminum fairing is also $1k including shipping. It's hundreds less than any other competitor and just as functional.

I liken it to when I sold bicycles; Giant and Cannondale in the early-to-mid 90s. Giant DEFINITELY made a better product; tighter tolerances, easier to build, more innovative, easier to service and easier to support all for less money. Cannondale was mostly none of that and charged more yet it carried much more brand value and so, people who had money (but lacked knowledge) bought them and we were glad to sell them because of the higher profits. And I said as much; Giant was to Honda as Cannondale was to Mercedes. And people who drove a Mercedes typically bough the Cannondales.

Fast-forward 20 years and regardless of what was purchased from either brand is now worthless and each owner got their value out of it. I expect the same out of our van and our updates. The question is, how much do I want to lose financially?
 

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