Rotten egg smell - battery?

[autostaretx]

Interesting battery clamp...

Here in Seattle, the cost to rent an engine hoist is $45 for 4 hours.

Perhaps a local garage would perform the swap for less money, or a 12-pack of beer? (pizza helps)

--dick

 

[irvingj]

That battery clamp -- just uses the weight of the battery to force the two rubber-coated arms to grip the battery's sides -- rather like hay bale or large-block commercial ice tongs. Works quite well to provide a rigid "handle."

I did finally get the two old batteries out, using the picnic table to stand on. And yes, the washer fluid reservoir moved over just enough for the batteries to clear that lip on the fender so they could then be lifted up. Of course, I did bang the top of the headlight assembly... and promptly got a "LEFT LOW BEAM" warning on the dash screen as soon as I started the engine....

BUT.... I felt something "let go" in my back, and man, am I paying for that this morning!! I tried a couple of times to reverse the process and lower the new batteries into the hole, but I could tell I wouldn't be able to do that without some serious damage to my back -- so I quit right there. Maybe I'm just too old for this s##t any more... B-day next week, will be 76..... Naaahhh!!!

So now, some possibilities:
1) call my local service people to see if they can put the two new batteries into position (I'll complete the wiring connections)
2) drive 27 miles down to my hangar and use the engine hoist there
3) go to the local "Rent-A-Gorilla" website (they have those, don't they?) and get somebody a lot more rugged than me to do it.

Problem with #1 is that it will probably be a week before I could get an appointment...but I'll plead with them.

 

[marklg]

That battery clamp -- just uses the weight of the battery to force the two rubber-coated arms to grip the battery's sides -- rather like hay bale or large-block commercial ice tongs. Works quite well to provide a rigid "handle."

I did finally get the two old batteries out, using the picnic table to stand on. And yes, the washer fluid reservoir moved over just enough for the batteries to clear that lip on the fender so they could then be lifted up. Of course, I did bang the top of the headlight assembly... and promptly got a "LEFT LOW BEAM" warning on the dash screen as soon as I started the engine....

BUT.... I felt something "let go" in my back, and man, am I paying for that this morning!! I tried a couple of times to reverse the process and lower the new batteries into the hole, but I could tell I wouldn't be able to do that without some serious damage to my back -- so I quit right there. Maybe I'm just too old for this s##t any more... B-day next week, will be 76..... Naaahhh!!!

So now, some possibilities:
1) call my local service people to see if they can put the two new batteries into position (I'll complete the wiring connections)
2) drive 27 miles down to my hangar and use the engine hoist there
3) go to the local "Rent-A-Gorilla" website (they have those, don't they?) and get somebody a lot more rugged than me to do it.

Problem with #1 is that it will probably be a week before I could get an appointment...but I'll plead with them.

View attachment 337071

As someone who has back problems, save your back, use the right tool for the job. A visit to an orthopedic doctor and PT is a lot more time and money and pain than getting access to a hoist. Tweak your back in 5 seconds, suffer for weeks.

Regards,

Mark

 

[irvingj]

Success.... local shop has agreed to place the batteries in their tray under the hood Thursday; I'll do all the wiring later. Back still hurts....arrgh.

 

[irvingj]

Yesterday: Batteries all in, wiring all connected, Trik-L-Start re-installed (but not yet connected).

Initial showing of 48% @ 12.6V (IIRC) on the remote solar panel read-out. Parked in the weak sun, and the % gradually went up, so that's apparently working. I eventually put a Genius 10 charger on it -- overnight. Inside reading now (4AM) 86% @ 14.0V and I've shut off the charger to see how it fares when sitting -- sun's supposed to come out later today so I'll watch that again.

Next step is to turn on the coach battery system, which will incur at least the CO/propane detector (a small draw). Will probably test other 12V items.

Last step will be to re-connect the "Underhood Generator" --extra alternator-- and see what the charging voltage is when I start the engine. Fingers crossed.

Interesting that it took this much younger, much more rugged guy (about twice my weight) about five minutes to lift both batteries into position under the hood. Easy-peasy. Shop charged me for 1/4 hour. My back still hurts....

EDIT: Much later next day (today): Sun has come out; meter connected to the solar system has finally reached "State of Charge: 100%." Yay!

Checking the voltage on that readout, it was 14.3, apparently what it considers to be a 100% "state of charge." I've also checked that readout's voltage against a voltmeter on the front batteries (chassis ground, POS terminal where the two sets of wires all meet) and they agree.

I'll let that sit for a while.... I discovered the other day that to replace my headlight bulbs on this rig, apparently the grille and bumper have to come off to remove the complete headlight assemblies from the chassis just to change the bulbs.....typical cost at the dealer running around $1000... really?? Granted the headlights are quite good, but my gawd, this is sounding like airplane parts!!


Maybe I should just stick it in storage and worry about that in the spring. Grrrr. Oh- and the bulbs? At an auto parts store, Sylvania HID D3S bulbs are..wait for it... $150 EACH. Ugh. I see some DIY videos on the subject, but have any forum members changed HID headlight bulbs on late-model NCV3s? (Any tips?)

 

[irvingj]

Early this morning, the batteries at rest measured 12.78 -- prior to the sky getting light and solar panels kicking in.

Later (solar panels contributing some), after re-connecting the field wire on the additional alternator, with the engine running:
Initial voltage measured at batteries 15.13, but gradually dropped to 15.02 after about 10 minutes.

To me, that still seems to be too much voltage going into the batteries. Thoughts?

 

[Midwestdrifter]

15.13, but gradually dropped to 15.02 after about 10 minutes.

To me, that still seems to be too much voltage going into the batteries. Thoughts?

You are going to destroy another set of batteries unless you figure out why the alternator is outputting voltage that high. As I stated earlier, 14.6V is the max for AGM unless they are very cold.

Even most flooded shouldn't be charged at 15V. Though there are some specialty fast charge algorithms which can push up that high for 5 minutes or so. That isn't the case here.

 

[irvingj]

Thanks for your input, that was my thinking as well. In my head, 14.2-14.5 would be "normal" charging voltage. I've disconnected the field wire so the alternator is now inactive; next step will be to pull that alternator and have it checked out. I'm just trying now to figure out how to get that done as simply as possible -- apparently the only real alternator shop in my area is about 65 miles away.

I'll look things over more closely to see if I feel up to pulling that alternator -- otherwise I'll have to have a shop do it. The problem that may cause, however, is once that alternator's pulled the main cooling fan will also be inoperable, as they use the same belt. That sounds to me like the engine ought not to be started while that alternator's out.

To be continued....

 

[Midwestdrifter]

Does this alternator have an external or internal regulator? The issue in question is likely a failed regulator. Though a high resistance sense wire (if equipped) can also cause high voltage.

If its an external regulator, you just need to check and possibly replace it. No need to remove the entire alternator.

 

[irvingj]

Good thought, but ...No such luck. As I understand it, this alternator has an internal solid state voltage regulator. (This from the manufacturer, Nations Alternator.)

 

[autostaretx]

You should ask Nations. Like the original MB alternators, the regulator may be a removable/replaceable component.

--dick

 

[irvingj]

Where I'm at -- I'm about to order overhaul parts from Nations, pull the alternator, and have a "local" (65 miles away) alternator shop check it out and make repairs...IF I can get that done before snow flies -- alternator shop is now closed until Nov. 12 (VT hunting season). Parts will include a new regulator.

 

[irvingj]

So the shop overhauled the alternator. On its initial test, however, the guy said he couldn't find anything wrong with it. (Hmmmm...) But he put in the new brushes, a new pulley, and a new regulator. My shop back here re-installed the alternator and at that time installed the new "relay harness" part -- that's the one that plugs into the side of the alternator to supply voltage to the field windings, as I understand it.

Then we had a snowstorm -- about one foot here, which arrived on Thanksgiving day. Solar panels were naturally totally covered, so no help there.

I cleaned stuff off today; initial battery voltage (battery disconnect had been in the OFF position) was 12.4, so they were low. After cleaning off solar it started to get some voltage, but not a lot -- lots of frost on the panels.

I re-connected the second alternator and started the engine; the voltage at the batteries immediately jumped to 15.1, then dropped to 15.0 after a minute. Letting the truck idle for about 15 minutes, it dropped to 14.9, which sounds hopeful, yes?

Panels are now clear, but not much sun. Batteries did get up to a bit over 13 by the time I put it to sleep. Now I need to get it into its storage place!

 

[Midwestdrifter]

14.9V maybe okay depending on if the alternator has a temperature sensor or not. I assume your meter is accurate.

If the alternator doesn't have a battery temperature sensor then 14.9 volts is likely too high and will destroy the batteries when the temperatures go up.

What is the part number of the regulator? It's possible it's just a high voltage regulator in which case he needs to be replaced with a lower one.

 

[irvingj]

So this morning, before dawn, the batteries are reading 12.8, much better than the 12.4 I observed yesterday. During the afternoon, after solar panels were cleared, voltage got up to 13.8 or so, still a good sign. I have now three ways to check this voltage, and all three agree (though the two that only show to one decimal place round up).

Perhaps it is temperature-compensated; one of the mysteries was that while at the shop --a small space, very warm inside-- the tech said he couldn't get the alternator to put out more than 13.8 while load testing it.

I now know much more about alternators than I ever did when working as a mechanic 50 years ago -- what I have is a harpin-wound alternator, and the regulator is what the shop tech said was a "standard Nippon-Denso hairpin regulator." I have the old one in my hands now, and there is what appears to be a heat sink on one surface, a kind of little radiator of steel with many holes and a raised profile. I'll do some more research, as I can now read the numbers on it.... "GL1" and "0039 BR19."

EDIT: see below, final two digits on the 00 number are “31” not “39”.

Thanks again for all your suggestions...never stop learning!

 

[Midwestdrifter]

I think you're possibly reading the part number wrong, but the photo isn't good enough for me to tell.

That's a pretty common style of regulator for those alternators, so it's likely that it's been fitted with a 15 volt regulator which is not suitable for sealed batteries.

They're available with a whole range of options, including adjustable ones. However I would just pick up a 14.6-14.4 volt regulator in the same style possibly with a sense line if you want to compensate for line losses.

 

[irvingj]

Thanks. Looking at replacement regulators, it appears the numbers that are relevant are the GL1 and, more importantly, the 0031. (I was mistaken above, it’s not “39” but “31” as the final two digits.)

I still have yet to learn how the temperature-compensating system works, specifically whether it’s based on the regulator itself or there’s a third wire that goes to the battery to sense temperature. Anybody know? (Although the regulator has three pins in its plug socket, the plug on my “relay harness” has only two wires going into it.)

 

[Midwestdrifter]

Unless the alternator regulator has an external sense lead for temperature than any compensation is based on the temperature of the regulator. The exception would be if it has a linbus connection allowing the ECU to adjust charge voltage depending on ambient temperature.

Depending on how the regulator is designed the wires can be one of the following. Enable disable, external voltage or temperature sense, linbus, voltage regulation input from an ECM either analog or by the prior linbus.

 

[irvingj]

Thanks again.

With that "radiator" thing on one end, I'm thinking that regulator may well be temperature-compensated (or is that merely a heat sink?), but only as far as sensible temp at the regulator -- hence that little radiator thing. (Better than nothing, maybe....) As far as any canbus/linbus stuff, I have no idea. I have nothing from Roadtrek.

I do see where that particular part number, ending in "0031," appears to be a common replacement part for a great many autos. Guess I'll have to wait for warmer weather to see if the output voltage drops to --to me-- a more reasonable level. I'd love to see a standing charging voltage from that alternator, assuming the coach batteries are near full, of 14.2 or so. I'm now in the process of building a housing for a coach battery voltage meter that I can observe in real time while driving.

In the meantime, I'm satisfied it'll be OK for winter storage (heated to 50F+), presumably happening next week, though I'm tempted to totally disconnect (pull a terminal off the coach batteries) for storage. Then I'll look at it again next spring.

For the current situation, solar panels -- with very limited sunlight-- are putting out 50+ volts and the battery voltage now showing 13.8 and rising. SOC meter attached to the solar controller shows 80% (and rising).

One thing that occurred to me -- Is it the chicken or the egg? Last summer, did damaged batteries cause the output of the alternator to rise so high, or was the high alternator output responsible for frying the batteries? Hmmmm....

 

[Midwestdrifter]

With that "radiator" thing on one end, I'm thinking that regulator may well be temperature-compensated

Most are temperature compensated for the temp of the regulator body. The feature you describe is a heatsink. The regulator is responsible for switching/controlling the current to the alternator field windings (can be greater than 10A). So most of them need a small external heatsink to keep them cool.

At 75F you want to see voltage peak around 14.4-14.6V, and slowly taper to a float of around 13.3-13.6V. You can hold a bit higher, but its a balancing game. To keep lead acid alive it needs charged to a true 100% often. Ideally every cycle, but every 3-5th cycle is also okay. This means holding the battery at ~14.4V until the charge current drops below 1% of C (1A for a 100AH battery). This can take as much as 4 hours from 50%. No matter how many amps of charging you have available, the time doesn't change that much, as the taper current is slow. Having solar to complete the absorb phase is great, but not always an option in the winter, especially if you have constant loads on the system.

Higher float voltage can compensate for an alternator that drops to float too quickly for a true 100% charge, but its a mix of stressing the battery a bit vs capacity loss due to degradation. For most folks its better to have a higher float, around 13.6V-14V unless they are driving for long stretches often.


Looking up the GL10031 regulator, it has a 15V setpoint. That's fine for flooded, but will slowly kill sealed batteries. I did a quick search, and don't see any 14.1-14.6V setpoint regulators with that same 3 pin connector. An alternator shop can surely source one for you from a catalog though. If you end up with a lower setopint (say 14.0V) you can increase the alternator voltage easily with a pair of diodes on the sense wire (goes to your aux battery 12V). The voltage drop of the diodes will be added to the alternators output voltage, can be adjusted between 0.1-0.4V depending on the diodes chosen.



Here is what the terminals do. The F terminal is used for external voltage regulator. Important, if you have an external regulator, that will control the voltage, not any circuitry inside the alternator.