The truth about EVs "Exemplary Vehicles"

Green Maned Lion

Der Unverbesserliche.
I recognize the tactic. Intentional or not, the goal is the same: say something so stupid that arguing becomes pointless.
I recognise the tactic of vague statements and claims of me 'recognising myself' when your statements clearly reference my posts. It doesn't work. People either recognise you are doing a bad job of trolling, or they are too stupid for me to care what they recognise.
 

Green Maned Lion

Der Unverbesserliche.
Yes, this. Some are real problems with Teslas (fit and finish, nightmare of design in the CT, etc) and some are imaginary problems with Teslas. But unfortunately all EVs get painted with the same brush. Funny thing is that there are many different models of EV on the road that don't look like a Tesla so people don't recognize them as EVs. For example my Chevy Bolt looks like an econobox, Mustang EVs look like Mustangs, the Hyundais look like a Korean designed sedan, the Mercedes EVs look like Mercedes, the Honda EV looks like a Chevy Blazer (cause it is, except for the Honda badge).
I agree with you except for the bolded statements, which are categorically false.
 

VHNB

the best dream, reality
*sighs* I'm beginning to suspect you are younger than I. Comparing yourself to a driver of BMW motorcycles is not particularly flattering. Actually, I didn't know M gmbh did anything with motorcycles, come to think of it.

Because there are a lot of people out there who think really large tires reflect the size of their whatsis. Seriously, go find a W124 and take it for a drive. Your head is going to explode at just how badly modern cars ride for a not entirely useful benefit in handling. And how little space there is in a modern car (there is less space for the driver in that GLS than in a W124 sedan, considerably so). Hell, if you can Turo one for a week, one will get you 10 you'll be asking me for tips on what to look for when you go buy one. Best car ever made, period.

Good, get a diesel 124. They aren't moderately powered. They aren't floaty, either. It's a lesson in how much suspension control and chassis stability got deemed superfluous to cheaper electronic stability control systems.

No electric powertrain can beat physics. The limitation of a large van as a performance vehicle are its brakes, and their inability to bring so much weight down from a very high speed adequately. That and its height. A major reason Mercedes doesn't put more power in a Sprinter is they don't think doing so is a good idea.
I had to look up w124 to see what it was.

I'm pretty sure back in 1988, I was on i-80 btwn Sacramento and Vallejo, in heavy traffic next to a mercedes (probably a w124 given the era and what I remember of the looks) doing close to 90 with everyone else.

I was in a f-250, saw a brakelight light up, saw something bouncing on the road, let off the gas, the Mercedes driver never saw it. What looked like a 4x4 bounced up hit the low front of the Mercedes, went under the Mercedes, and blew out the front wheel. The Mercedes didn't waiver, wiggle or anything, just tracked straight. I thought that was a hugely impressive response. The rest of the drive I pondered what would have happened if the front tire of the f-250 blew out at 90 in traffic. I don't think it would have been good.
 

flman

Well-known member
What you lie about it, is that the above is only rebuttal for what you have done.
Being chicken-shit, you hide your profile to top it.
Geez Pollock, just having a little fun. Don't take it personal. I might have gave you 5 in a row, but you're on a mission.

What do you want to know about my profile? Most smart people don't share.
 
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OffroadHamster

K.I.S.S.
My impressions of Tesla build quality don't align with yours, I find that interesting. I won't argue that Tesla moved the needle extremely far; I have been on record for saying that the Model S was the first car to come along since the Citroen DS as an individual model shifting the automotive paradigm, and the fact that Tesla successfully launched a mass market car company without first having their products labeled as utter garbage makes them a first for as far back as I can recall. And I think the launch of the Model 3 as a car as successful as it is, of a quality that perpetuates that success, is also truly remarkable.

But I also think there are a lot of 'problems with EVs' that are more 'problems with Teslas' that have been used as a reason to avoid the adoption of EVs.

That being said, if you follow the trail of Mercedes-Benz back far enough, you find Gottlieb Wilhelm Daimler and Carl Freidrich Benz, and I don't think anything can eclipse the paradigm shift they brought to the world in terms of personal transportation, besides, possibly, the invention of the wheel itself. Do you?

Here's another point though. Some of Mercedes innovations have either been a bad idea, or a developmental dead end because of excess cost and complexity. An example of that is mono-blade wiper that debuted on the W201 and stuck around through the end of W210 production. It is a superior design to any other wiper system; it is also so expensive and complicated that it ever being adopted by anyone besides Mercedes was unlikely, and ultimately, even they couldn't justify the expense.

I can come up with three such features right off the top of my head for Tesla. The first is the X's 'falcon wing doors'. I don't think I need to explain why they are an example of what I'm talking about, do I? They are so pointless and over-engineered, I suspect Musk stole it from a DB engineers in the first place. The second is the stainless steel skin of the Cybertruck; building vehicles out of stainless steel has been a thing since Edward G. Budd invented shotwelding in the 30s, and it has not caught on in private cars for a reason: it makes sense for insanely durable commercial vehicles like railcars and line-haul busses, but on a car, its an expensive gimmick.

And the third is megacasting. Tesla didn't invent that; Mazda did. The Millenia used 'megacasting'. It has a series of benefits in body fit, apparent quality, refinement, and body stiffness. It also is a really bad idea in a production automobile. Car bodies being assembled out of a series of different components makes accident repair and general maintenance much more expensive; its a major reason why insuring Teslas is so expensive; they total really easily because repair of the megacast body is prohibitively expensive.

Cars have to make sense in an environment where they get disposed of fairly rapidly, and get beaten up in daily use.

I've driven Subarus hard. If somebody put a gun to my head and told me I had to buy a Japanese car, after I tried to argue cruel and unusual punishment, I'd buy a Subaru. Probably a BRZ though. Rear drive is non-negotiable for me.

I certainly can appreciate your like of the 850; for a wrong-wheel-drive car it is remarkable, and one of my favourite cars of the 90s. Although to my recollection, AWD debuted on the S70, rather than the 850. (Apparently my recollection is wrong; the S70 is just an extensive facelift of the 850 anyway). If I had to buy any car of the 90s, now that I can import what I want, I'd import an E300 diesel wagon, and swap in the turbo. I can't think of a more perfect car that would serve every possible need perfectly.

Bias can create strange feelings sometimes; ever since I can recall seeing the first W124 I ever saw, I thought it was the most beautiful car, and ever since I first rode in one, I was in love. Buying one didn't assuage that. Nothing quite combines modern car design with old-school MB build quality quite so well. You have to admit, nothing feels quite as solid as a W124.
Lots of great points. I will be short and agree with
1) The model X is garbage. Even Elon admitted it was a huge mistake that almost bankrupted Tesla. Leaky doors be damned I guess??
2) The Cybertruck was an immeasurable mistake. Feels like driving the Millennium Falcon, a small child could sleep on the dashboard, the front of it is...where? and the back corners are....also where? Also, steering feel, have you heard of it Tesla?

And disagree with your point on
1) the Millenia. It had some novel manufactring, but was very different than what tesla pulled of with the newest Model y. Yeah it has repair challenges, but so did aluminum bodied cars until ford built the beer can F150 and everyone had to learn how to work on aluminum. Tesla's are expensive to repair because Tesla refuses to FIX anything, they just REPLACE shit, and that is infuriating on a finite planet!
2) That problems with EV's are often just problems with Teslas. Go drive a few EV's (I have drive almost every single one offered for sale short of some high polish cars I could not swing (MB G-Class EV for example)). Ev's whose 12v batteries die, whose software wont update, whose main batteries wont charge, whose attempt at futuristic user interfaces utterly fail to be usable, whose doors are impossible to unlock, whose doors are impossible to lock, whose mobile apps dont work....these cars abound, and these problems are almost universal. Its like the traditional manufacturers FORGOT how to build a car when they dipped their toes in to EV's. Its utterly perplexing. The EQE and EQS, the ETron (now Q4 etron), the Mach-E...OMG are they hard cars to live with, those Turos went back early, woof.

Also, speaking of the environment where they get disposed of, battery recycling is getting pretty cool, watch this, it blew my mind a bit:


And finally, even the FWD(Wrong wheel drive) 850s were a hoot! And Yes, we also called Oscar the Panzerwagen, it was decidedly tank-like in its construction.
 

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