Fried our Nations 280A alternator. Did I use the jump start function wrong?

Wrinkledpants

2017 144WB 4x4
We have a 200Ah Victron lithium, 280A alternator with Balmar regulator, and 300A fuses on our 4/0 cable runs. At the alternator post we have a strand of battery cable going to a switch, and then to the positive post of the starter alternator. The switch is activated by a momentary switch that allows lithium voltage to travel to the positive post of the starter alternator, and then to the starter battery. This was all installed by Tourig and we're currently on a trip.

I've tested this when everything off and can see the starter battery voltage rise when the switch is pressed. The other day, I tested it by actually starting the van with the button pressed. I saw amps flow from the lithium (by looking at the BMV on my phone) to the starter battery that surpassed 200A before I released the button. The fuse blew on the positive output from the Nations alternator, and I had to swap that fuse for the one on the switch (which was not blown) so that we could continue to get charge back to the lithiums. From that point, the alternator wasn't quite right. In the ramp phase, it would not push out any current and then all of a sudden 100a starts flowing and it continues to ramp up to 200a. That worked for a few weeks, but now we don't have any current from the alternator. Balmar works fine and shows 86% output (I have it throttled down), which should be around 200a at higher RPMs, but the voltage at the positive output on the alternator is just lithium battery voltage.

Questions:

1. Did I somehow break the alternator with this setup? Should I have kept the Nations alternator off before doing this jump start?
2. If I hold this button down, can the reverse happen which is the starter battery can charge the lithium in a pinch? I'm fearful of cooking the starter alternator but presume the ECU can read the alternator temp and throttle back if it needs to?
 

borabora

Well-known member
My interpretation would be that you damaged your Victron battery or its BMS when you used it as a starter battery. Normal vehicle starters draw about 500 amps. I don't know how much a Sprinter starter draws but it could be around 800 amps.
Not only would I not try to use the vehicle alternator to charge the LIFEPO4 battery but it probably wouldn't work anyway for the above reason -- the dedicated alternator isn't the issue. If I am wrong about that then charging a single 200 ah battery directly is probably okay for some time but keep in mind that an alternator cannot adjust current to a single device. It can only lower voltage to reduce current to all devices. If the draw of the Victron battery is too high then the alternator will reduce voltage potentially to a level that can be harmful to the van itself. But the reason why I wouldn't try it is because if the battery is faulty it can present an erratic load to the van alternator. If you try it anyway, make sure there's a fast blow ~120 amp fuse in line. Good luck.
 

Kajtek1

2015 3500 X long limo RV
I am not much of electrician, but even my limited knowledge says that putting 300 amp fuse on aux charging circuit, while having 280 amp alternator is asking for trouble.
You might fry diodes, but it would take upper end electrician to troubleshoot it
Good luck
 

Wrinkledpants

2017 144WB 4x4
My interpretation would be that you damaged your Victron battery or its BMS when you used it as a starter battery. Normal vehicle starters draw about 500 amps. I don't know how much a Sprinter starter draws but it could be around 800 amps.
Not only would I not try to use the vehicle alternator to charge the LIFEPO4 battery but it probably wouldn't work anyway for the above reason -- the dedicated alternator isn't the issue. If I am wrong about that then charging a single 200 ah battery directly is probably okay for some time but keep in mind that an alternator cannot adjust current to a single device. It can only lower voltage to reduce current to all devices. If the draw of the Victron battery is too high then the alternator will reduce voltage potentially to a level that can be harmful to the van itself. But the reason why I wouldn't try it is because if the battery is faulty it can present an erratic load to the van alternator. If you try it anyway, make sure there's a fast blow ~120 amp fuse in line. Good luck.
The lithium battery is fine. It's working as intended and we're currently living off just solar at the moment. Ran on shore power a few days ago to, and that worked perfect, too.

I'm getting zero voltage increase on the alternator positive post - it's just showing battery resting voltage. The nations is throttled down to put out a max 200a current, so the 300a fuse works ok. There's also a 300A fuse on the positive post of the battery, too, which is under the 400a limit on the battery.

That's what I was wondering on the starter. If our battery will take 300a of charge current, directly connecting it to the starter system with no control in place, even for an emergency, seems not be advisable vs installing a DC/DC charger setup as a "Plan B" if you will.
 

gltrimble

2017 170 4x4
I have an 80 amp and a 500 amp Blue Sea battery combiner switch that I routinely use to connect my 420ah of lithium batteries and my Nations alternator to my starter battery. No issues so far with or without the engine running. The purpose of the 500 amp switch was to jump start the starter battery if needed. The smaller 80 amp switch, installed prior to the 500 amp switch, is used to back feed power from the starter to the house batteries if needed or to use the solar to keep the starter battery topped up when parked for extended periods. I typically see current flow from the lithium batteries to the starter but no where near 200 amps. I have 2/0 cable. The battery combiner came in handy when my Balmar regulator failed allowing me to charge the lithium bank from the Mercedes alternator until my Balmar was replaced.

I also know of forum members that use only their factory alternator to charge their 200ah lithium batteries without issue.
 
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220629

Well-known member
I can't offer much.

I can say that the 300 amp fuse is there to protect the conductor aka wire/cable. Conventional fuses do little to protect solid state components.

Is it possible that having one 300 amp fuse out of the circuit has somehow affected a feedback circuit that is affecting the alternator output, or normal operation?

vic
 

mtsarpilot

Active member
Do you know what device is being used for the battery combiner function? That is likely where the switch that connects the Lithium to the starter battery is going. For our installation, we plan to use a Victron Cyrix Li-ct as the battery combiner to charge the LiFePO4 from the main alternator. One of the features of the Cyrix Li-ct is a switch as you describe that lets you shove power from your Lithium to your starter battery. My understanding is this is NOT to be used as a jump start mechanism. The starter may pull way more current than your Lithium battery is intended to put out. The switch is intended to let you push power from the Lithium to the starter battery. It connects them for 30 seconds then shuts off. If you need more power than that put into your starter battery, then push it a 2nd or 3rd time. Waiting 30 seconds + between pushes. Now you've put a bit of power into your starter battery and can start the engine. What I understood was you should not attempt to start the engine during that 30 second timeframe.

If my understanding is correct and your van has a Cyrix or similar device, this could be part of the cause of the problem. Some component somewhere may have fried by starting during the 30 second period.

You may want to give Tourig a call and describe the failure you are seeing. They may be able to diagnose it over the phone just from experience.
 

Midwestdrifter

Engineer In Residence
I would check for a burned connection somewhere. At a ring terminal, splice, etc.

The next step is to confirm the voltage on the field wires going to the alternator. If that shows good while running, then you probably have a internal alternator failure.

Sudden current changes can cause spikes, but if you had a battery in the mix, it would have buffered them. If the alternator was completely disconnected from both batteries, then it could have experienced a voltage spike. Which may have damaged the diodes, or more likely, the regulator. If your field wires aren't getting near battery voltage, that would indicate a regulator failure. If you contact nations, they probably have a spec for the field coil resistance, and you can measure that with the regulator unplugged.

Calbiker measured the T1N starter current, and it was around 200A peak IIRC. The OM642 is probably a bit higher than that, which explains the blown 200A fuse.
 

wankel7

Active member
Do you know what device is being used for the battery combiner function? That is likely where the switch that connects the Lithium to the starter battery is going. For our installation, we plan to use a Victron Cyrix Li-ct as the battery combiner to charge the LiFePO4 from the main alternator. One of the features of the Cyrix Li-ct is a switch as you describe that lets you shove power from your Lithium to your starter battery. My understanding is this is NOT to be used as a jump start mechanism. The starter may pull way more current than your Lithium battery is intended to put out. The switch is intended to let you push power from the Lithium to the starter battery. It connects them for 30 seconds then shuts off. If you need more power than that put into your starter battery, then push it a 2nd or 3rd time. Waiting 30 seconds + between pushes. Now you've put a bit of power into your starter battery and can start the engine. What I understood was you should not attempt to start the engine during that 30 second timeframe.

If my understanding is correct and your van has a Cyrix or similar device, this could be part of the cause of the problem. Some component somewhere may have fried by starting during the 30 second period.

You may want to give Tourig a call and describe the failure you are seeing. They may be able to diagnose it over the phone just from experience.
I have a Cyrix on our Promaster and asked Victron the same question...here is the exchange....

Me:

"
I had a question about using this feature....

Do you attempt to crank the engine within the 30 second window? Or after the 30 second window?

Thank you.
"
Victron

"
You start the engine when the relay is closed and both batteries are in use, if the 30 seconds is not enough use the start assist again till the engine has started.

Use a push button as described."

So, it seems like you use the 30 seconds window to give the start battery a boost then start. Which makes sense. I can't imagine how much current would flow with the relay open and the starter motor engaged.
 

borabora

Well-known member
The lithium battery is fine. It's working as intended and we're currently living off just solar at the moment. Ran on shore power a few days ago to, and that worked perfect, too.

I'm getting zero voltage increase on the alternator positive post - it's just showing battery resting voltage. The nations is throttled down to put out a max 200a current, so the 300a fuse works ok. There's also a 300A fuse on the positive post of the battery, too, which is under the 400a limit on the battery.

That's what I was wondering on the starter. If our battery will take 300a of charge current, directly connecting it to the starter system with no control in place, even for an emergency, seems not be advisable vs installing a DC/DC charger setup as a "Plan B" if you will.
If you are sure that the battery is fine then it's the connection to the charging alternator, the alternator or the regulator that's at fault. I am not sure if the regulator is integrated with the alternator or a separate unit but the input voltage to the regulator should be different than the output of the regulator (obviously) while the alternator is running.
A smoked connection between the battery and the regulator could be enough to conduct so that measured voltages are the same but resistance is so high that current can't flow. The battery's BMS could still be at fault with discharge no issue and low level charging from solar working fine but things going to pieces when the current gets to be high.
Am I understanding correctly that your battery is only 200 ah but you are normally charging at 200 ah (1C)? While that may be within the battery's spec it wouldn't be ideal...?
 

avanti

2022 Ford Transit 3500
I am not sure if the regulator is integrated with the alternator or a separate unit but the input voltage to the regulator should be different than the output of the regulator (obviously) while the alternator is running.
OP has a Balmar power controller, which performs several functions beyond regulation, including charge-control, temperature monitoring (potentially of both battery and alternator), and load-shedding. These things involve external connections and sensors, so the situation is a bit more complex than with a traditional regulator (internal or external).
 

Wrinkledpants

2017 144WB 4x4
Here's a picture of the contactor that's under the hood. All MRBF fuses are this setup and I describe the order of cabling on the Nations positive post.

Connections go like this:

Victron 200AH battery -> MRBF 300A Fuse -> Battery Switch -> Pos Bus -> 4/0 Cabling -> MRBF 300A Fuse -> Battery Cable to Contactor -> Pos Post of Nations -> Up to contactor -> 300A MRBF Fuse -> Pos post of starter alternator.

The Balmar regulator has the Power source running from the Engine bus under driver seat with a Victron BP65 that's connected to the BMS. The ignition source for the Balmar is the "Engine Running" post under driver seat. Balmar is working fine and it's requesting full load from the alternator. I need to run continuity checks on the field wire today to rule that out.

If I'm hearing everyone right, I should be able to start the van with this system engaged? I'm really starting to think the fuse blowing with bad timing on me releasing the switch resulted in the Nations having nowhere to dump whatever voltage it had. What I should do is A) turn off the nations next time, or B) set the Balmar for a 10 second delay to give the engine time to stabilize and for me to release the switch.

I'm not sold on this design, but I do love the concept of jump starting. I have never heard of the contactor company. Is there a better device for this?
 

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Kajtek1

2015 3500 X long limo RV
The picture shows just the relay, when it is control circuit that is crucial.
I am not good in imaging the schematic from typed words and I assume lot of people have the same issue.
Can you make a sketch?
 

Wrinkledpants

2017 144WB 4x4
If you are sure that the battery is fine then it's the connection to the charging alternator, the alternator or the regulator that's at fault. I am not sure if the regulator is integrated with the alternator or a separate unit but the input voltage to the regulator should be different than the output of the regulator (obviously) while the alternator is running.
A smoked connection between the battery and the regulator could be enough to conduct so that measured voltages are the same but resistance is so high that current can't flow. The battery's BMS could still be at fault with discharge no issue and low level charging from solar working fine but things going to pieces when the current gets to be high.
Am I understanding correctly that your battery is only 200 ah but you are normally charging at 200 ah (1C)? While that may be within the battery's spec it wouldn't be ideal...?
All the connections in the rear of the van where the battery is look fine and checks are all good. I have normal voltage drops from the battery to the positive post of the alternator. When I check the positive post of the alternator to chassis ground, I'm getting only the same voltage as the Lithium battery (about 13.3v). Bulk profile is set to 14.3v.

Yep -charging at 1C. Victron supports this as the battery will take 400A of charge. I may get a few years less life out of this thing, but I'm ok with that considering how fast we can recharge every day.
 

Wrinkledpants

2017 144WB 4x4
Shot all the wires and continuity checks look good. Full field tests failed in that the voltage input at the alternator for a full field request failed to create voltage or magnetism at the alternator. Appears the unit is dead.

Temporarily, I shut down the regulator, and connected the system to the engine alternator. I’m getting about 75A of charge at the Lithium battery. I know the Nations unit will get too hot pushing 140A or more and throttle back to 100A. Not knowing what the engine alternator is capable of, does 75A sound safe? No idea what the engine and cab are pulling for amps, but I assume the ECU would not allow the alternator to overheat?
 

VanGoSki

Well-known member
And as I re-read this, I'm wondering if the fuse blowing on the positive output post of the alternator was the equivalent of disconnecting the battery with the nations alternator still pushing out current. Which I guess is a voltage dump?
That's exactly what happened. Maximum current draw from the alternator, then an immediate disconnect == fried alternator rectifier. Been there, done that.

In case you don't know, you don't need to return it to Nations to get it fixed. Any alternator shop can replace the rectifier assembly. It's a standard part, but not the most common. Fortunately I found a shop with the part in stock and they replaced it while I waited for $120.
 

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