Renogy doesn’t appear to be shipping lithium batteries

LoveThatRV

Active member
From what I can read, battle born and renogy use different a BMS and can’t be used together so I’ll probably sell it closed box to fund a 3rd battle born 100ah lithium.
I don't know what you mean when you talk about mixing BB and Renogy - batteries or equipment. If you mean batteries, then yes, you can not mix them. But if you mean BB batteries and Rengoy DC-DC Charger, then you should be able to mix them as I did so before I switched to a Victron DC-DC Charger.
 

Midwestdrifter

Engineer In Residence
Since almost all LFP batteries have similar voltage curves, its possible to use different brands of LFP batteries in the same pack. There are caveats, you need to be under 50% of the total packs max current, and all batteries need to have integral BMS.
 

LoveThatRV

Active member
Since almost all LFP batteries have similar voltage curves, its possible to use different brands of LFP batteries in the same pack. There are caveats, you need to be under 50% of the total packs max current, and all batteries need to have integral BMS.
That is certainly not what folks like BB are telling their customers. I was told that I could not use any other Lithium batteries with the 2 BB that I have, and I assume that is because the BMS of other manufacturer's batteries are different from the BMS that BB uses. And I assume that applies to all Lithium batteries that have their own BMS.

If you are referring to Lithium batteries that do not have their own BMS then perhaps those can be mixed. I just don't know.
 

Midwestdrifter

Engineer In Residence
That is certainly not what folks like BB are telling their customers.
BB also tells folks to charge at 14.6V. They are not an authoritative source in my opinion.

They are driving more sales and reducing warranty risk. It's not always a straight drop in, but LFP is LFP, regardless of the label on the box. There are some nuances, but it's not a catastrophic mess, at least for fractional C applications. For high load applications it's best to avoid mixing unless you really know what your doing. Anything above 0.8-1C continuous, and/or 0.25-0.4C average in my view.
 

marklg

Well-known member
That is certainly not what folks like BB are telling their customers. I was told that I could not use any other Lithium batteries with the 2 BB that I have, and I assume that is because the BMS of other manufacturer's batteries are different from the BMS that BB uses. And I assume that applies to all Lithium batteries that have their own BMS.

If you are referring to Lithium batteries that do not have their own BMS then perhaps those can be mixed. I just don't know.
Any battery manufacturer has an ulterior motive to avoid what is known as a pi**ing contest. If you have batteries from different manufacturers and there is a problem, they each point fingers at each other and at you and it can get heated. It is a support nightmare. Technically, it is possible that they perform differently under extreme overvoltage and undervoltage conditions such that a corner case results in a lockup or similar problem that does not resolve itself without intervention. If you really understood what each battery's BMS does, you should be able to have them work together, but most people are not battery experts and they don't always publish full information.

I have four LifeBlue batteries that are ostensibly exactly the same as each other and the state of charge varies a few percent between them in parallel. Some will be charging and some will be in standby when the charging current is limited. They say not to use more than four in parallel.

Regards,

Mark
 

LoveThatRV

Active member
BB also tells folks to charge at 14.6V. They are not an authoritative source in my opinion.
I would think that they would be pretty authoritative concerning their own batteries. And, in any case, they recommend that my Victron DC-DC charger be set to charge at 14.2 - 14.6 volts. Here is a cut-and-past from the FAQ on their webpage:

Charging Voltages/Parameters:

  • Bulk/absorb: 14.2 – 14.6 V
  • Float: 13.6 V or lower
  • No equalization (or set it to 14.4 V)
  • No temperature compensation
  • Absorption time: is 30 minutes per battery (if it’s an option)

They are driving more sales and reducing warranty risk.
I am pretty sure there is some of that, but they also tell you that you can add new BB batteries to old BB installations for up to 2 years, so they are not telling people to buy completely new sets if someone wants to add another battery.

As for myself, I have 2 BB batteries but this Sprinter based RV uses a lot more power just incidentally than my old one and I have thought about adding 1 more battery, so I would hope that you are right, but I worry that the built-in BMS in the BB batteries might not work properly with the built-in BMS in something like the Lithionics battery. Perhaps that concern is unnecessary, but I have no way to be sure.

Anything above 0.8-1C continuous, and/or 0.25-0.4C average in my view.
I have a Victron 30 amp DC-DC charger, but that current gets added to any solar input so when driving it is not unusual for me to see 40 or 50 amp charging. 50 amp charging with a 200AH system is only 25% at max so that is right at your lower limit. On the other hand if I added one more battery it would only be about 17%. Personally I would like to be sure that you are right and that the built-in BMS would not be an issue.
 

Midwestdrifter

Engineer In Residence
Parallel strings rarely split the current evenly. So at 4 strings your could have one with 45% and another at 10% of the current. That's a bit extreme but can happen. So you can get a cascade overcurrent at much less than the packs theoretical limit.

As for the bms, they are really simple in these drop ins. They provide cell over/under temp and over/under voltage protection via an integral solid state disconnect. They also have a passive balancer to bleed off power from a cell that's higher than the others. As long as you are using reasonable charge voltages, and are operating under 50% of the combined current limit for 2, or 33% for three batteries, then no additional consideration is needed. Outside of reasonably balanced wiring resistance.
 

marklg

Well-known member
Parallel strings rarely split the current evenly. So at 4 strings your could have one with 45% and another at 10% of the current. That's a bit extreme but can happen. So you can get a cascade overcurrent at much less than the packs theoretical limit.

As for the bms, they are really simple in these drop ins. They provide cell over/under temp and over/under voltage protection via an integral solid state disconnect. They also have a passive balancer to bleed off power from a cell that's higher than the others. As long as you are using reasonable charge voltages, and are operating under 50% of the combined current limit for 2, or 33% for three batteries, then no additional consideration is needed. Outside of reasonably balanced wiring resistance.
My batteries each have a Bluetooth interface, so I can look at individual charging currents and cell voltages. So far, the cells are pretty well balanced in a pack. Charging and discharging currents vary the most under low current conditions, some batteries may stay in standby while others share the load. Under high currents (300 A discharge) they still vary +/- maybe 20%, maybe between 60 and 90 Amps per battery. The wiring resistance is not perfectly balanced due to mounting locations requiring longer wires for some.

Having monitoring of individual batteries is a very useful feature, not supported by many of the others. I decided I wanted it after troubleshooting four bad AGMs in parallel, with two worse than the others. Figuring out which took a lot of disconnecting and testing, both time consuming and risking a short between the wrench and the loose cables.

A single shunt and battery monitor does not give you anywhere near the information. I can tell if any of my batteries or even individual cells is degrading.

Regards,

Mark
 
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LoveThatRV

Active member
My batteries each have a Bluetooth interface, so I can look at individual charging currents and cell voltages. So far, the cells are pretty well balanced in a pack. Charging and discharging currents vary the most under low current conditions, some batteries may stay in standby while others share the load. Under high currents (300 A discharge) they still vary +/- maybe 20%, maybe between 60 and 90 Amps per battery. The wiring resistance is not perfectly balanced due to mounting locations requiring longer wires for some.
Since my wife and I do a lot of boondocking and because the Regency Ultra Brougham we now have seems to use a lot of power (just running the inverter eats up about 2 amps/hour even if you are not using the outlets, and none of the usb charging connections work without the inverter running, the macerator toilet uses a fair amount of power, and so on) I have thought seriously about adding another battery. The problem is that the battery box only has room for 2 type 31 batteries and so I would have to add a 3rd battery somewhere else and thus have to have the whole connection wiring redone to balance the distances. In addition my current BB batteries do not have any bluetooth connectivity so I would have no idea what was going on inside the batteries. Given all of that you comments are very interesting.

I have thought about replacing the 2 BB with 3 Lithium batteries that have their own bluetooth connectivity so I could see what was actually going on, but the cost has been an issue.

A single shunt and battery monitor does not give you anywhere near the information. I can tell if any of my batteries or even individual cells is degrading.
Exactly. I regret that I did not know enough about this when I first made the switch to Lithium. There are a lot of threads about upgrading from the OEM batteries to Lithium and they discuss a lot of issues, but I never saw this being discussed. The Victron SmartShut is much better than nothing, and I always have some idea of how much power I have left, but I have no idea what is going on inside the batteries - if they are balanced, if any of the cells might be going bad or even if one of the two batteries has failed.
 

marklg

Well-known member
Since my wife and I do a lot of boondocking and because the Regency Ultra Brougham we now have seems to use a lot of power (just running the inverter eats up about 2 amps/hour even if you are not using the outlets, and none of the usb charging connections work without the inverter running, the macerator toilet uses a fair amount of power, and so on) I have thought seriously about adding another battery. The problem is that the battery box only has room for 2 type 31 batteries and so I would have to add a 3rd battery somewhere else and thus have to have the whole connection wiring redone to balance the distances. In addition my current BB batteries do not have any bluetooth connectivity so I would have no idea what was going on inside the batteries. Given all of that you comments are very interesting.

I have thought about replacing the 2 BB with 3 Lithium batteries that have their own bluetooth connectivity so I could see what was actually going on, but the cost has been an issue.



Exactly. I regret that I did not know enough about this when I first made the switch to Lithium. There are a lot of threads about upgrading from the OEM batteries to Lithium and they discuss a lot of issues, but I never saw this being discussed. The Victron SmartShut is much better than nothing, and I always have some idea of how much power I have left, but I have no idea what is going on inside the batteries - if they are balanced, if any of the cells might be going bad or even if one of the two batteries has failed.
You can compensate somewhat for wire length by using larger wires. 4/0 is a practical size limit and I have some of that, along with 1/0 to most things.

There are several batteries now with hard wired interfaces that can all connect to one monitoring / control panel. I haven't investigated much, but the industry is very innovative. It seems to me BB has been left behind in terms of innovation. I have no idea if quality comes with all the innovations though.

My setup has four batteries, two in the original locations under the rear floor and two more in a deep well in back. Great West had some ideas ahead of their time. It looks like you do have some storage areas you might be able to use for more batteries.

Regards,

Mark
 

Ron_S

Active member
@LoveThatRV A better solution would be to replace the 2 100Ah BB with one 315Ah Lithionics. That also simplifies the wiring (over having 3 batteries in parallel). It fits in the footwell and makes monitoring simple. With my 2 x 130Ah Lithionics, I have to monitor (via app) the batteries separately. The app only lets you examine one battery at a time. Speaking of battery wires, I'm going by the assumption that if I'm not increasing the house current load, the original battery cables don't need to be upgraded. I figure if the OEM wires could handle the 2000W inverter with original 2 6V batteries, it would be good enough with upgraded batteries. Of course, if the goal is to support more load (such as 3000W inverter or AC) then you'll need heavier cables to the inverter.
 

marklg

Well-known member
@LoveThatRVSpeaking of battery wires, I'm going by the assumption that if I'm not increasing the house current load, the original battery cables don't need to be upgraded. I figure if the OEM wires could handle the 2000W inverter with original 2 6V batteries, it would be good enough with upgraded batteries. Of course, if the goal is to support more load (such as 3000W inverter or AC) then you'll need heavier cables to the inverter.
That can't be assumed. The original installation in mine had a 3000W inverter and woefully undersized wiring to the batteries. Use one of the online wiring calculators and figure it out correctly. I would use a 1% voltage drop for battery to inverter rather than the 3% default on many calculators. It will keep things from crapping out when the batteries are low.

Regards,

Mark
 

LoveThatRV

Active member
@LoveThatRV A better solution would be to replace the 2 100Ah BB with one 315Ah Lithionics.
I have thought about doing exactly that but keep coming back to the fact that doing so would leave me with only a single battery and if something happened to that I would be left with no battery power. No second battery to use in case of the failure of one.

My alternative is to replace the 2 BBs with 2 Lithionics 130AH giving me 260AH. It is not 315AH, but it would give me a backup battery in case of failure. Of course the Lithionics 130AH batteries are a bit pricey at about $1500 the last time I looked and that is close to twice the cost of the BBs I currently have.

One other thought was to add one more BB battery. That would give me 300AH, which is close enough to 315 to not be any difference, and the cost would only be the single battery. But then I would have to find someplace to put the 3rd battery and all 3 would need to be rewired so as to balance the loss from the 3 batteries, and I would still be left with having to rely on the Victron SmartShunt to know what was going on with my batteries.

So in the end I have so far done nothing about upgrading the batteries. Spending $3000 for only 60AH more seems a bit silly, and spending $4500 for a single battery seems expensive and wasteful to me given that I already have 200AH of Lithium battery power. From time to time I wonder if I could sell my 2 BBs and that would reduce the cost of whichever Lithionics batteries I might buy.
 

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