Peas and Carrots

lindenengineering

Well-known member
Yes absolutely "right on FMC's side & warranty policy!

The only time I saw a generous warranty policy from Ford was with the 6,00 litre Powerstoke engines of the early to mid 2000's. A no quibble replacement up to 100,000 miles and beyond under mitigating circumstances.

This fuel purity issue is a big problem for the latest common rail engines.
Really the trade and fule oil suppliers aren't keeping up with the advances in modern low pollution engines and clean air standards.
All the best
Dennis
 

sleeper bird

Well-known member
Maybe simplicity, add another factory filter twice the chance of catching foreign stuff maybe change that on at half the recommended intervals suggested.I also emailed raycore to pick their brains,waiting for reply.
 

CJPJ

2008 3500 170 EXTD 3.0 V6 OM642.993 4.182
Interesting post.
Sorry but!
This sounds more like a service writer making a statement straight out of the owners handbook!:rolleyes:

So MR CJPJ in your wisdom of experience advice written above how many vehicles have you tackled with this problem of water in the fuel?
Found not only causing expensive damage in 906 Sprinter vehicles built also some of the other domestic platforms running diesel engines with the same Bosch fuel system basics as the Sprinter?

So how many?:popcorn:

I raised this issue as a caution since we have been seeing such issues with Ford and GMC's in the shop with expensive FIE system failures for a while now. These now somewhat mirroring the same as found on the 906 Sprinter. In just about every case NO water in the fuel light was illuminated when the vehicle was presented for diagnostics and driveability problems!

I pointed out that the regional refining of pump fuel in the USA as a suspect of causal problems and quality varies enormously from pump to pump! . Asphaltines and their effect now made worse by low sulfur requirement only exacerbate the problem.
If you haven't researched it please read as it is pertinent in this case.

There are several issues at stake here, but filter selection on the 906 Sprinter is a bit limited and reflects service operation in Europe where refining is much higher than here in the USA!

http://www.lcbamarketing.com/asphaltenes_and_fuel_filter_plug.htm

For this very reason I have been trying Cummins additive in the short term to combat this issue on a test ambulance but as yet no tangible results either way!

Just to make a point!
If that is OK with you!
Dennis
Mr Dennis thanks for your insight:rolleyes: and information.

In my experience; I have not seen a 10,000 thousand dollar engine repair bill.

Maybe because of the practices posted or May Be luck, or California diesel, or clean living; not sure. I posted what I practice; of course it's ..

In my opinion
The sprinter, ford , dodge, they all have a early warning indicator that is capable of preventing damage to the high pressure system:

By paying heed to the waterin fuel indicator (most cases) will prevent water from getting past the fuel filter .

Heed the warning; @ first indication of water, ... Sooner the better! Drain the fuel filter by using the filters water drain valve - removing the water and preventing water from getting past the filter ..

If the water indicater continues lit, or soon returns, there may be too much water for the filter to handle.

Simply: don't ignore water in fuel indicator: as continue operating with it lit will at some point let water past the filter and lead to the engine damage described in this thread.


Peas, carrots and onion ...
:popcorn:
 

sleeper bird

Well-known member
Well the most effective water separator in zee oulden days was the simple petticoat vortex design.
Being on the low pressure (suction side) of the lift pump fuel flowing in on its way to the pump would swirl inside the top section causing the fuel droplets to be thrown against the fuel filter wall and drop down into a dead zone.

CAV sold millions of then on most trucks and diesel powered vehicles using the old injection systems.

Of course today the FIE design is different and the old separator is not designed to withstand the normal feed pressures from the in tank pump design.
I have briefly looked at this, but have not made any conscious decisions to convert:
https://www.marineenergysystems.com.au/Fuel-Water-Separator-filters/Fuel-Guard/Fuel-Guard-FGV

Dennis

I dont know how i skipped this link Dennis,looks promising price might be a little hard to swallow but hey it is what it is
 

CJPJ

2008 3500 170 EXTD 3.0 V6 OM642.993 4.182
I dont know how i skipped this link Dennis,looks promising price might be a little hard to swallow but hey it is what it is
They won't work on a sprinter; they are too big; the fuel flow rate of a sprinter is to small it being (estimated) less then 4 ltr/hr even adding some recurlation the volume of flow wouldn't create enough of a vortex.

... if you could coax the sprinter to consume the entire content of its fuel tank in one hour; 102 ltr/hr ... May not be enough flow needed for those listed filters to operate.

FGV2 120 ltr/hr FGV6 360 ltr/hr FGV10 600 ltr/hr FGV60 3600 ltr/hr ~ * Please ask for higher capacity models up to 350 litres per minute.


In my opinion
 

lindenengineering

Well-known member
Guys you are getting ahead of yourselves.
I stated earlier I looked at it-- Something promising from the marine world!

Whether you could find/spec something suitable for a small, diesel engine is another matter from these manufacturers!

This is essentially why I tend not share ideas and studies with observers --It promotes comments which aren't productive!
Dennis
 

220629

Well-known member
For those who are concerned that the OEM filtering is inadequate and want to improve their chances of riding through off-grade fuel.

Here is an interesting read on duramax issues. Fuel velocity and filter size/capacity plays an important role. Just because a filter still passes enough fuel doesn't mean it is usable? The stock filter is likely cellulose media type, and is fairly small. I don't see any disadvantage to adding a ~120gph pre filter? Donaldson offers a synthetic media water separator which is supposedly more affective than plain cellulose. :idunno:

http://dmaxstore.com/products/?route=product/product&product_id=49
Above, the author indicates that a pre-filter helps to address many problems.
DMax Store Article said:
That leads us to the reason the pre-filter solved the problem. Suddenly the main filter had a much more manageable task: all it had to do was catch the small fraction of larger particles that made it through the pre-filter. The percentage of water and other contaminants making it through to the injectors dropped dramatically. The presence of a good pre-filter along with proper maintenance in keeping with the main filter service intervals generally allowed the early Duramax injectors to run quite happily.
Based upon posts in Sprinter-source so far the Sprinter OEM filters have been adequate. Adding a pre-filter will take the load off the OEM filter which should only improve things.
Thanks for the information. Very interesting.

Does the OEM Sprinter filter suffer the same inadequacies as the Duramax? Are the Sprinter filters as poorly sized? A 3.0 L engine uses less fuel overall. I assume that the Sprinter filters are a different manufacturer.

The way I interpret the information that was communicated, there may be great benefit and the best bang for your buck by just adding a pre-filter and keeping the OEM Sprinter filter in service. Maybe an entire fuel filter system change isn't really cost effective.

The article has me re-thinking the value of procrastinating on... I mean, extending my fuel filter change intervals too long.

vic
Adding or replacing with an entire fuel filter system can be expensive.

Maybe simplicity, add another factory filter twice the chance of catching foreign stuff maybe change that on at half the recommended intervals suggested.I also emailed raycore to pick their brains,waiting for reply.
I like that idea, but I believe that the NCV3 OEM fuel filter is quite expensive.

This OEM filter choice is less expensive and doesn't have the Water In Fuel sensor port or other seals to deal with.
THE PERFECT SOLUTION for a OEM style pre-filter.

No seals. No special OEM fitting. No muss. No fuss. Just an in and out hose connection.

FUEL FILTER IN-LINE FILTER MAHLE KL 313

Listed for Mercedes 3.0 V6 Diesel.
In Europe and Australia, the Chrysler 300C was available with a Mercedes-Benz 3.0 L diesel V6

This is what I recommend for a Sprinter pre-filter. Cheap and effective.


MahleKL313.jpg


http://www.amazon.com/MAHLE-Original-KL-313-Filter/dp/compatibility-chart/B0068N008U

vic

Added: 2 ea. Hose Union Connectors are needed to connect to the existing fuel hose and filter. The size is 5/16" x 1/4". (10 mm x 8 mm)
*************** The original information is shortened because there was an edit disaster. **********
My suggestion.

Add the Mahle pre-filter and change that on whatever filter change schedule which you feel adequate. Don't change the more expensive OEM NCV3 or T1N filter until necessary, or until you just can't bear to have it in service any longer. With the pre-filter in service the OEM filter with WIF sensor will have much longer service life.

With the Mahle filter there are no worries as to flow rates, proper pressure rating, compatibility, etc. IT IS A MERCEDES OEM FILTER. The original left in service OEM filter has the WIF sensor. There is no need at all to duplicate that feature.

An added benefit to the pre-filter concept is that the pre-filter will be cheaper and easier to change out. (2 each hose connections.) That reduces cost. For T1N OM612 engine with the suck system just changing 2 each hoses means less chance of air leaks after a pre-filter change. There is no reason to disturb the existing OEM filter as often.

My concept for installation would be to snuggle or hang the added filter unit in the area above the OEM filter. I'm quite certain that there is room in the T1N engine bay. I have no idea for the room in the NCV3.

I have no data.

vic



https://infopart.org/febi-bilstein-38294-part
The FUEL FILTER IN-LINE MAHLE KL 313 is listed for the OM642 engine. So ok for in tank pump.
As an aside. Lots of other OM647 parts listed too.
http://catalog.mahle-aftermarket.com/na/modules/motor/detail.xhtml?motorId=16986
 
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220629

Well-known member
FWIW, Jon Caples (jdcaples) added a prefilter to his 2007 & documented it here:

https://sprinter-source.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17506
FWIW.

The entire reason for my pre-filter suggestion here is to apply the KISS formula. It's probably not as good at protecting the engine as a more complex and expensive solution like both Jon Caples and Jon Talkinghorse43 installed, BUT this solution uses OEM type filter components and, per the author in the article above, should be effective at reducing risk.

Whether the next step up to a more complex and expensive DIY designed/spec'd out filter system is worthwhile is up to the individual to decide.
(Personally, at this time, my choice is to not install anything extra in my system. That is for my T1N. The fuel filter system for those so far has seemed adequate unless a Water In Fuel warning isn't properly addressed right away.)

vic
 
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talkinghorse43

Well-known member
Seems to me the '04-'06 T1N & NCV3 OEM filter setups are adequate for all usual contaminates EXCEPT water. Water separation is more difficult for these systems, which utilize an in-tank low pressure fuel pump, because the shear and turbulence in the pump will tend to reduce water droplet size and promote a water-in-fuel emulsion. So, IMHO, merely adding more OEM-style filters won't solve the water issue here. I think a different water-in-fuel solution needs to be found for these systems.
Since water contamination most probably originates somewhere in the supply chain, the KISS solution would be to make sure any fuel put in your van's tank is free of water. It's easy to tell visually whether water is present (http://www.wsbindustries.com/presentation_wsb_fuel_guide.pdf), so all that needs to be done is to pump a small amount of fuel into a clear container and look at it. If it's off-color (fluorescent green) or cloudy, it's water-contaminated - put the nozzle back and move on to a different station.
That's the KISS solution. Any other solution (dispersion-breaking filters, absorbing filters, etc.), while possible will be much more complex.
 

CJPJ

2008 3500 170 EXTD 3.0 V6 OM642.993 4.182
Keep a mason jar with a recap pour lid in the van to preview any fuel

..& your Good to go image.png
 
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danski0224

Active member
A buddy of mine works in the heavy equipment repair and repower industry, and he also provides support to Sprinter type vehicles.

I asked him about this moisture in the fuel problem.

He said that it is most likely caused by vehicle fuel tank condensation. Keeping the tank more full than empty would help.

He recommends a Davco Fuel Pro system as an add-on for water filtration and additional dirt filtering.
 

talkinghorse43

Well-known member
A buddy of mine works in the heavy equipment repair and repower industry, and he also provides support to Sprinter type vehicles.

I asked him about this moisture in the fuel problem.

He said that it is most likely caused by vehicle fuel tank condensation. Keeping the tank more full than empty would help.

He recommends a Davco Fuel Pro system as an add-on for water filtration and additional dirt filtering.
My water-in-fuel episode in late '14 was caused, so the fuel station owner said, by a ground water leak into their in-ground storage tank.
 

220629

Well-known member
Seems to me the '04-'06 T1N & NCV3 OEM filter setups are adequate for all usual contaminates EXCEPT water. Water separation is more difficult for these systems, which utilize an in-tank low pressure fuel pump, because the shear and turbulence in the pump will tend to reduce water droplet size and promote a water-in-fuel emulsion. So, IMHO, merely adding more OEM-style filters won't solve the water issue here. I think a different water-in-fuel solution needs to be found for these systems.
Since water contamination most probably originates somewhere in the supply chain, the KISS solution would be to make sure any fuel put in your van's tank is free of water. It's easy to tell visually whether water is present (http://www.wsbindustries.com/presentation_wsb_fuel_guide.pdf), so all that needs to be done is to pump a small amount of fuel into a clear container and look at it. If it's off-color (fluorescent green) or cloudy, it's water-contaminated - put the nozzle back and move on to a different station.
That's the KISS solution. Any other solution (dispersion-breaking filters, absorbing filters, etc.), while possible will be much more complex.
I'm no expert.


According to the DMax article author, a pre-filter does help the existing water separation capability to do the job.

Who is really going to sample their fuel at pump every time? How do you properly dispose of the sample that you pulled? A funnel back into the tank? It all sounds like a sloppy inconvenient process which will quickly be abandoned by most operators/owners.

The Mahle KL313 Pre-filter concept.

According to the DMax author a pre-filter helps.

The initial cost for the Mahle filter, connecting hose, clamps, and 2 each hose unions will likely be under $40.00 total.

The filter can be supported with a bracket formed by perforated strap or other metal. The filter can be clamped to the bracket using a worm drive hose clamp. There is room in my OM647 engine bay.

My service schedule.

Initially change out the existing OEM fuel filter [to a Mahle KL228/2D] and the new added KL313 pre-filter at the same time. After the pre-filter is in service then change that on whatever service schedule that the owner feels appropriate. Leave the original OEM filter alone.

The Mahle filter is about $25.00 per change. In the TIN the filter will be up where accessible. It will only require R&R of 2 each hoses for the change. The cost avoidance of not needing to change the more expensive OEM WIF filter will pay for the pre-filter.

On the OM612 engine just changing the added pre-filter means that the problematic air leak filter system is disturbed less often. Remember, 2 hoses for the pre-filter.

Gelling in the Mahle pre-filter. There is more risk of gelling with any added pre-filter. What cheaper added aftermarket filter system will have fuel pre-heat built in? I believe that I can safely answer "None".

I'm actually considering adding the pre-filter to my 2006. I hate the access to the fuel filter now. Having a fuel filter accessible and only needing to deal with 2 hose connections is attractive.

A self designed aftermarket filter may be more effective (or maybe not...), but it is expensive and not easily installed.

I see no serious drawbacks to installing a Mahle pre-filter. I actually believe that there is benefit.

:cheers: vic


P.S. - Check your local laws/ordinances as to whether pumping fuel into a glass container is legal. I believe that it is against the law all across the USA. You might get a reaction if some Homeland Security zealot decides to intervene.
 
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Old Crows

Calypso 2014 View Profile
Have been reading this thread with interest...... after reading Vic's last post, I reminded myself that I have a Mr. Funnel filter. Got it decades ago to filter gas for mowers/tractors/OPE when I had a farmette. Aviation grade 5GPM model. They make a 15 gpm job for larger fills. It does work..... water and 'gunk' (scientific term for '$hIt') gets removed from your fuel. The down side is that with an angled filler neck, there's always a small amount of fuel left in the funnel. I suppose you could put a flexy hose on the end of the funnel and hold it more vertical.

Old school was to filter through a chamois. Worked for gas.... don't know about diesel. (Yes.... did that a couple times.... I'm an "OLD" Crow.)

Yes... a PITA to filter 26 gallons into your Sprinter..... BUT! it some situations it might save you lots of time and moolah.

http://www.mrfunnel.com/Mr._Funnel/Home.html
 

talkinghorse43

Well-known member
Who is really going to sample their fuel at pump every time? How do you properly dispose of the sample that you pulled? A funnel back into the tank? It all sounds like a sloppy inconvenient process which will quickly be abandoned by most operators/owners.
I'm retired, so I think I'll try it for a while. A mason jar lid with spout is made in Erie, PA, so I'll get one next time I go up to check on my boat.

On the OM612 engine just changing the added pre-filter means that the problematic air leak filter system is disturbed less often. Remember, 2 hoses for the pre-filter.
My aftermarket pre-filter from Donaldson is plumbed so I can valve out the OEM filter, change the pre-filter, and prime the pre-filter w/o losing prime on the OEM filter, etc. - much less wear and tear on the fuel pumps after filter change (probably only need to change the OEM filter when/if it rusts away).

Gelling in the Mahle pre-filter. There is more risk of gelling with any added pre-filter. What added aftermarket filter system will have fuel pre-heat built in? I believe that I can safely answer "None".
Racor makes them w/ 12v heat.
 

CJPJ

2008 3500 170 EXTD 3.0 V6 OM642.993 4.182
Re: Peas Carrots and Extra Virgin Olive Oil

.. The initial cost for the Mahle filter, connecting hose, clamps, and 2 each hose unions will likely be under $40.00 total.
To plumb a pre filter in series with the oem filter requires installing one single line reducer. The application of a union over prices and complicates the installation.

Vic; can you spec a union that is better in application then this line reducer.image.png

P.S. - Check your local laws/ordinances as to whether pumping fuel into a glass container is legal. I believe that it is against the law all across the USA.
Illegal Only in NY.

Diesels: Flammable Liquids - Category ( 3 ) , it has the same Flammable Liquids - Category 3 rating as Extra Virgin Olive Oil ( 3 ).

OSHA
Table H-12 — Maximum Allowable Size of Containers and Portable Tanks for Flammable Liquids

Table H-12 — Maximum Allowable Size of Containers and Portable Tanks for Flammable Liquids
Container type
Glass or approved plastic
Category 1 1 pt
Category 2 1 qt
Category 3 1 gal
Category 4 1 gal.
 
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220629

Well-known member
There seems to be some resistance to my suggestion of improving (not completely re-engineering) the Sprinter OEM diesel filtration over what is provided from the factory... for 50 bucks. 50 friggin' dollars that includes a payback schedule.

If I need to spec out completely how to mechanically install a pre-filter with simple inlet and outlet, then maybe the person should hire it done.

Yes. There are more expensive options using aftermarket filtering which are better and *may* save you from a low quality fuel disaster.... or maybe not. How many owners will actually go to that expense and trouble? My good old Grandfather always quipped, "Talk is cheap. It costs money to buy liquor.".

I offer what I believe is a reasonably priced upgrade to the Sprinter fuel system. The pre-filter solution that I propose is a Mercedes Benz spec filter. Did I mention 50 bucks? Once the installation is complete it can be less than 25 bucks per replacement filter.

It is not tested. Are any of the other proposed "solutions" tested?

It is not guaranteed. Are any of the other proposed "solutions" guaranteed?

It is not expensive. Some other proposed "solutions" seem to be.

To my knowledge, it will not adversely affect the operation of your Sprinter. I've stated what I feel the advantages are.

If there are are any real "Achilles Heel" type problems with my proposed OEM type pre-filter addition then please point them out. Other than that, I really am not interested in defending what I feel is a reasonably simple upgrade to the fuel system. Everyone can completely ignore my suggestions for adding a pre-filter with no fear of hard feelings on my part.

:cheers: vic

P.S. - I stuck my neck out with the dispensed into glass containers comment. It definitely applies to gasoline (petrol). I'm too lazy to research as to if it applies to diesel dispensed in a typical neighborhood non-commercial fuel station. I do still believe that any personally performed at the pump sampling will ultimately be messy and stinky. And that is if it all goes as planned.
 
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