ongoing problems please help.

aaronschof

New member
SOB, I'm not sure where Aaronschof is located (it may say upthread but I'm not going back to look) but in many none NAS markets we do not have electric radiator cooling fans. I believe these are only fitted when the van has Air Con fitted. Hence why Aaronschof was confused when you asked do the fans run when the ignition is turned on.

Aaronschof, I'm sorry I can't add more to help with your problems but the above may explain the misunderstanding with SOB.

Keith.
Hi keith, I'm.based in essex, so I'm from the UK same as you lol.
Thanks for the reply
 
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aaronschof

New member
Aaronschof,
You need to get down to some systematic troubleshooting.

An easy first thing using a Sprinter friendly scan tool is to verify the fuel rail pressure while cranking. For reliable starting you need 2900 PSI minimum.

If the fuel rail pressure is good then I would next check for voltage at the critical pins of the ECM aka ECU. If the computer doesn't get the proper voltages, or ground connections are compromised then you will not get a star


Many things have been checked, but that also means that many things have been disturbed. Perhaps double check that everything was put back together properly.

vic
Hi vic
I'm sure the fuel pressure was ok last time but I will re check it to be sure, the van isn't actually cranking, can the pressure be checked without cranking?

Thanks!
 

aaronschof

New member
Just thought I'd mention, I can't here the fuel pump click when I turn turn to the on position, and there are still no clicks under the seat, do you think this could be a faulty immobiliser shutting connection off to the pump and starter, someone on here posted before about how.older sprinters used to warn people of.immobiliser problems by a glow.plug light staying on, as I have.
 

220629

Well-known member
Just thought I'd mention, I can't here the fuel pump click when I turn turn to the on position, and there are still no clicks under the seat, do you think this could be a faulty immobiliser shutting connection off to the pump and starter, someone on here posted before about how.older sprinters used to warn people of.immobiliser problems by a glow.plug light staying on, as I have.
Have you determined for certain whether you have an electric in tank fuel pump or a mechanical low pressure pump mounted on the engine?

The glow plug coil can signal glow plug system problems. The glow plug coil has nothing to do with the SKREEM. To my knowledge since at least NAS aka NAFTA model year 2001 SKREEM problems are announced by "Start Error" in the dash inset. Your 2004 has the same feature.

vic
 

mehr4x4

New member
aaronschof, Sorry that I didn't get back to you earlier. Been quite busy. I'm actually on a computer instead of my phone so let me see if I can get this to work. There are several ways to confirm what is going on here. I'm not sure how much of this is exact for yours not being from the state's such as mine but I'll try to help.

When I have no power going to the engine ECU, or they call it the engine control module but we will call it the ECU for reference sake, the following will happen;
When I turn the key to the on position the engine electric cooling fan will come on, all the dash lights momentarily will come on but the "water in the fuel", "glow plugs", and "Oil" lights stay on and don't go out (Pic "No power"). Turning the key to the start position causes NOTHING to happen, no click, nothing.

I understand that your van may or may not have the same electronic engine cooling fan so i don't know if this applies but it is a symptom for mine.

When I have power and everything is working correctly the following happens;
When I turn the key to the on position the engine electronic cooling fan will not run, all the dash lights momentarily will come on and only the normal lights remain on such as the "battery", "ESP", and "Traction" lights (Pic "Power"). Ignore the check engine light, it's a glow plug module and unrelated to this problem. And when I try to start the engine it will click on the relays and start the engine.

If it were fuel pressure, or starter relays, or starter motors, or SKREEM problems you would have other symptoms. The first 3 listed above WILL give at least a click of some sort and the lights would be normal.

One "easy" way to confirm this is the problem is to remove the center relay (in Pic "Fuse Box1") and jump the two larger contacts with a made up wire. Use two "male" spade connectors (Pic "Connectors") with a wire and push them into the two larger slots (lower part of Pic "Drawing" ) This will energize the ECU and the van should start with the key. Shut the engine off. Don't leave the jumper in there as it will power the ECU all the time even with the key off. Just use this to confirm this is the problem.

If the above works then do the following until you and I can find a permanent solution;
I used a combination of male and female connectors to make jumper wires and fuse sockets to power up the 2 fuses for the ECU. I found some fancy combination male AND female crimp connector that had both spades on the same crimp. Sorry but I don't have a picture of that. You can just use a larger yellow spade connector and push 2 wires into the same connector, that will work to. (Pic "Connectors") I pulled fuse 6, 16,and 17 out. Make up 3 short wires, about 4" long with a Mc (male connector) and Fc (female connector). Then cut 3 more 4" long wires and crimp as shown in lower (Pic "Drawing") Push the Mc into the right side of fuse socket 6 and connect the first Fc to pulled fuse 6, then the next Fc to pulled fuse 16, then the last Fc to pulled fuse 17. Now take the first 3 made jumper wires and push the first Mc into the left side of fuse socket 6 and connect the Fc to the empty side of pulled fuse 6. Second jumper goes into the right side of socket 16 to pulled fuse 16 and then the last one goes into the right side of 17 to the pulled fuse of 17.

Now turn the key on and see if everything seems correct with dash lights and try to start it. I bet (virtual) money that it will start! :clapping:

I hope this makes sense. If not please feel free to ask questions on what I did. :cheers:
Eric
 

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aaronschof

New member
aaronschof, Sorry that I didn't get back to you earlier. Been quite busy. I'm actually on a computer instead of my phone so let me see if I can get this to work. There are several ways to confirm what is going on here. I'm not sure how much of this is exact for yours not being from the state's such as mine but I'll try to help.

When I have no power going to the engine ECU, or they call it the engine control module but we will call it the ECU for reference sake, the following will happen;
When I turn the key to the on position the engine electric cooling fan will come on, all the dash lights momentarily will come on but the "water in the fuel", "glow plugs", and "Oil" lights stay on and don't go out (Pic "No power"). Turning the key to the start position causes NOTHING to happen, no click, nothing.

I understand that your van may or may not have the same electronic engine cooling fan so i don't know if this applies but it is a symptom for mine.

When I have power and everything is working correctly the following happens;
When I turn the key to the on position the engine electronic cooling fan will not run, all the dash lights momentarily will come on and only the normal lights remain on such as the "battery", "ESP", and "Traction" lights (Pic "Power"). Ignore the check engine light, it's a glow plug module and unrelated to this problem. And when I try to start the engine it will click on the relays and start the engine.

If it were fuel pressure, or starter relays, or starter motors, or SKREEM problems you would have other symptoms. The first 3 listed above WILL give at least a click of some sort and the lights would be normal.

One "easy" way to confirm this is the problem is to remove the center relay (in Pic "Fuse Box1") and jump the two larger contacts with a made up wire. Use two "male" spade connectors (Pic "Connectors") with a wire and push them into the two larger slots (lower part of Pic "Drawing" ) This will energize the ECU and the van should start with the key. Shut the engine off. Don't leave the jumper in there as it will power the ECU all the time even with the key off. Just use this to confirm this is the problem.

If the above works then do the following until you and I can find a permanent solution;
I used a combination of male and female connectors to make jumper wires and fuse sockets to power up the 2 fuses for the ECU. I found some fancy combination male AND female crimp connector that had both spades on the same crimp. Sorry but I don't have a picture of that. You can just use a larger yellow spade connector and push 2 wires into the same connector, that will work to. (Pic "Connectors") I pulled fuse 6, 16,and 17 out. Make up 3 short wires, about 4" long with a Mc (male connector) and Fc (female connector). Then cut 3 more 4" long wires and crimp as shown in lower (Pic "Drawing") Push the Mc into the right side of fuse socket 6 and connect the first Fc to pulled fuse 6, then the next Fc to pulled fuse 16, then the last Fc to pulled fuse 17. Now take the first 3 made jumper wires and push the first Mc into the left side of fuse socket 6 and connect the Fc to the empty side of pulled fuse 6. Second jumper goes into the right side of socket 16 to pulled fuse 16 and then the last one goes into the right side of 17 to the pulled fuse of 17.

Now turn the key on and see if everything seems correct with dash lights and try to start it. I bet (virtual) money that it will start! :clapping:

I hope this makes sense. If not please feel free to ask questions on what I did. :cheers:
Eric

Thankyou very much for the detailed description, my electrical parts should be here tommorow and I will try what you have suggested, hopefully I can atleast get it back.on the road for now! I will keep you updated
 

aaronschof

New member
Hi just thought I'd mention I just re tested the fuses under the dash for continuity, and u have found fuse 11 showing a resistance if 1270!? The fuse shows continuity when pulled out but when inserted it shows this number and does not chime out like the rest, also I tested the 3 earth wires above the battery and one.of them will not beep on the continuity test, could this be my.problem?

Sorry I am.no.electrician but what's the best way to check the grounds to the ecu properly


Thanks
 

aaronschof

New member
Re checked the three earths above the battery and only one out of three shows a resistance of 6.5, the others have 0, is this a bad ground? Maybe this is the one goinf to the ecu that got abit wet? Thanks
 

220629

Well-known member
Re checked the three earths above the battery and only one out of three shows a resistance of 6.5, the others have 0, is this a bad ground? Maybe this is the one going to the ecu that got a bit wet? Thanks
A no load test with a digital meter gives a hint, but isn't really a great test for grounds and conductivity. Anything higher than 1 ohm or so would be questionable to me.

If I had your problems I would dis-assemble the grounds, clean them, apply Vaseline or contact grease, and re-assemble. There are many common ground points in the Sprinter. There is the grounds you mention on the firewall. There is also a set of grounds over near the battery/fender. They should probably be cleaned too. That would be what I'd do in addition to the great procedure which mehr4x4 outlined previously.

vic
 

aaronschof

New member
A no load test with a digital meter gives a hint, but isn't really a great test for grounds and conductivity. Anything higher than 1 ohm or so would be questionable to me.

If I had your problems I would dis-assemble the grounds, clean them, apply Vaseline or contact grease, and re-assemble. There are many common ground points in the Sprinter. There is the grounds you mention on the firewall. There is also a set of grounds over near the battery/fender. They should probably be cleaned too. That would be what I'd do in addition to the great procedure which mehr4x4 outlined previously.

vic
hi vic,

i removed all grounds i could find today and wire brushed/vaselined them including ground under drivers seat, i am still waiting on the electrical clips to be delivered to me so i can try meh4x4 suggestion, hopefully they will be here tommorow and i can crack on with that aand hopefully get a start :thinking:

thanks for the continued replies i do appreciate it and we will win out!
 

aaronschof

New member
UPDATE:

The van has started!!
I tried what mehr4x4 said and as soon as I turn the key i heard the fuel pump click then the van cranked and started first time.

I cannot thank you enough mehr4x4, I really do.appreciate the help and detailed post you put up, I was literally running out of.options as you all know, thanks for your continued help, this is a great forum.

Just have to figure out the rest of the wiring as I've.only got round to doing the bypass part. But will crack on tommorow.

Any info as to why this works? I take it the fuse board isn't receiving/sending signal to start right?

Thanks
 

Markthelark

New member
Fuse boards seem to be a problem. You can get second hand ones on Epay for around £25 - £40. I bought one for a problem I had , turned out to be a bad one ! The problem got sorted , it was the very first thing I suspected , but didn't test it as well as I should have .
 

220629

Well-known member
UPDATE:

The van has started!!
I tried what mehr4x4 said and as soon as I turn the key i heard the fuel pump click then the van cranked and started first time.

I cannot thank you enough mehr4x4, I really do.appreciate the help and detailed post you put up, I was literally running out of options as you all know, thanks for your continued help,
...
Thanks
Great news. :thumbup::thumbup:

Fuse boards seem to be a problem. You can get second hand ones on Epay for around £25 - £40. I bought one for a problem I had , turned out to be a bad one ! The problem got sorted , it was the very first thing I suspected , but didn't test it as well as I should have .
I agree that the FB #1 Fuse Block #1 does have some history of connection/conduction issues which may be the cause of a no start problem.

One caution is that even if Eric's Mehr4x4 jumper circuit allows enables starting, that of itself doesn't point directly to the FB #1 proper as the problem. The jumper solution provides power to many places so problems unrelated to the FB #1 cannot be discounted. That said, at around 100 bucks for the new part and relatively easy DIY replacement, replacing the FB #1 certainly makes sense.

One note about the dash light icons.

The Low Fuel Pressure icon is only included on NAS aka NAFTA 2001 - 2003 Sprinters with OM612 engines. The 2004 - 2006 OM647 engine models will only leave the oil level (Oil Can with drip) illuminated after lamp check. There is no Low Fuel Pressure indicator with the OM647 engine.

Eric,
Great solution! :thumbup::thumbup:
Have you put together a diagram of what the jumpers actually connect? If not, I plan to dig through and try to document the circuit. Does this work to by-pass "Start Error" no start problems?

vic

Added.

Position #6 20 amp is Windshield wiper so it is just a switched 12 v power source.

Position #16 25 amp ECU aka ECM power

Position #17 15 amp ECU aka ECM power

The 1/4" male to male short jumper connects the Engine Relay Pin 30 to Pin 87 (N.O. contacts)


013FuseArrangementBlock1pic.jpg

The FB #1 is not just a simple fuse block with a buss to supply power to the lines of fuses. It is a module in the truest sense. The fuse positions Eric uses are not powered all the time. Those positions are fed controlled/conditional 12 volts.

One caution in using the jumper solution. There is a delay in power down of the ECM aka ECU main computer to save settings, etc. If the power to that is removed too quickly it may affect operation such as the ability to store DTC's for troubleshooting reference. :2cents:

I haven't studied the schematics. I suspect that leaving the Engine Relay Pin #30 to Pin #87 may provide constant power to the ECM aka ECU even when the engine is shut down. This probably not a good thing over time. A SPST switch can be installed in the jumper to allow manual power down of the ECM. I recommend waiting about 10 seconds after the key is turned off before switching of the SPST switch. That will allow the ECM to power down normally and save data. Actually, if the diagram is correct, Eric's jumper for the Engine Relay may not even be necessary. The Engine Relay can just be left in place.
 
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aaronschof

New member
Hi thanks for the replies, I will eventually replace the whole fuse board and see if it fixes the problem...And vic I deffiently have the low pressure light on my dash, it's the large fuel ⛽ light on the dash not near the fuel gauge, on the Mercedes website it says this is low fuel or low pressure \ fuel filter problems..

Funny thing is once I done the bypass like mehr4x4 suggested this light has disappeared, the only light that stayed on was the edc

I plugged my apparently faulty abs back in and now the edc light has gone off, see now I am curious as to whether to abs was ever faulty or not.
My limp mode only came about when the mechanic disconnected my abs.
 

mehr4x4

New member
Sorry again for a delay in posting. My phone broke and using an old phone :-( replacing the fuse box 1 did not solve my problem :-( Great point on my solution not allowing proper shut down. Glad to hear my procedure helped to get you back on the road :)

Argh! I hate this phone :-(

Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk 2
 

aaronschof

New member
Hi mehr4x4
I am slightly confused about how to wire the part for the fuses, is there any chance you could explain that a little more as the diagram is a little confusing, thanks for your help so far!:bow:
 

aaronschof

New member
Once I plugged the abs back in the edc light has gone off completely, took the van for a spin earlier and I'm able to rev up past 3000 for the firdt time in ages, so it's out of limp mode, but seems as if it's lacking turbo boost, maybe my egr needs cleaning, can anyone tell.me where the egr is located on the 2004 2.2 t1n thanks
 

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