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Old 12-12-2008, 05:06 PM   #1
Aqua Puttana
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Default Rumble Strip Noise Transmission Drive Train Shudder

I know this is yet another thread about the NAG1 transmission RSN and shudder... shutter to some, but I figured maybe it would help to have a quick answer for anyone searching for info and possible solution.

I'm embarrassed to admit that I actually spent the $197.00 for the 9 quarts of Sprinter/Crossfire Transmission Fluid, filter, gasket, and transmission connector, but against good forum advice given here procrastinated in actually doing the change. When I purchased my 2004 it had 172,000 miles. I put about 8,000 more miles on it before changing the fluid.

The following thread has all the info you should need for the T1N change.

http://sprinter-source.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2557

Before I finally did the change the drive train was doing a shudder in the area of 1800 - 2000 rpm that had me worried I might have a drive shaft universal or other non-transmission related problem. I could minimize it by shifting or using throttle, but it would return. It was particularly there when I was towing my 3000# or so boat/trailer. The reason I mention this is that the sound and vibration was nothing at all like the rumble strip noise I found described in other threads, it was a much more heavy and shudder like symptom. As I have no maintenance records form the previous owner I have no idea what fluid was in the transmission or how old it was. The transmission and torque converter plugs came out fairly easily so I'm quite certain the fluid had been changed before.

Anyway, the reason for this post is to point out that my drive train had a heavy shudder that went away completely after I changed the filter and used the Sprinter/Crossfire fluid. I simply drained the pan and torque converter. I didn't try to drain hoses or get fancy. I considered dropping the valve assembly for sensor cleaning, but after some comments about difficulty in doing that task lying on your back I decided to wait until next time. At 182,000 miles I still have a slight RSN here and there at times, but nothing even approaching what it was prior to changing the fluid.

Now my problem is to decide what the next change interval should be and convince myself to spend the money and take the time away from more pleasant activities. I hope I'm lucky and didn't shorten the life of my transmission with my earlier procrastination. Hope this helps.

Added: If a fluid change doesn't improve your transmission operation you may want to try an additive.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lindenengineering View Post
...

Also once you are done add a can of BG's ATC plus transmission additive. Any abnormal burnishing of the lock up internal clutch will be smoothed out by this stuff.
All the best
Dennis
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Old 12-12-2008, 06:21 PM   #2
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Default Re: Rumble Strip Noise Transmission Drive Train Shudder

Did you use MB236.10, MB236.12 or the newer MB236.14 fluid?

-Jon
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Old 12-12-2008, 06:48 PM   #3
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Default Re: Rumble Strip Noise Transmission Drive Train Shudder

Quote:
Now my problem is to decide what the next change interval should be and convince myself to spend the money and take the time away from more pleasant activities.
Alot could depend on various factors (how you drive, actual time as opposed to mileage, vehicle loading, ambient temps, etc) but without additional cooling (and filtration) beyond stock, I certainly don't think I'd consider more than the recommended change interval, which is 60K miles.
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Old 12-12-2008, 08:15 PM   #4
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Default Re: Rumble Strip Noise Transmission Drive Train Shudder

Never felt shudder with my '02, but have had RSN (stick-slip of the torque converter clutch during lockup) off and on (mostly on) for the 159k miles thus far. Noticed that the RSN would disappear at ~40k miles into the change, which I interpret as a reduction in the coefficient of friction of the plates in the torque converter clutch (allowing the desired slip, but not stick-slip). RSN has always come back with fresh fluid, which means to me that fresh fluid increases that coefficient of friction again. My first change was "early" ('02 recommendation was once at 80k miles) at 55k miles due to a leak. Second change was "early" (by that time the interval recommended was every 60k miles) too at 111k because I did it myself and it was summertime. RSN is gone now and I'm due again at 171k miles. I think that if I let it go to a longer interval, I would probably experience shudder (probably stick-slip of the locked clutches) at some point when the coefficient of friction gets low enough. Seems to me the recommended interval of 60k miles (in addendum to '06 owner's manual) is about right. I know Doktor A recommends a 40k mile change interval, but if I did that, I'd never get to enjoy those ~20k mile shots of RSN-free operation.

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Old 12-12-2008, 09:48 PM   #5
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Default Re: Rumble Strip Noise Transmission Drive Train Shudder

Jon,
Uh..h... I don't know?

*******
Added 20161008:
I've since been convinced that whether MB236.10, MB236.12, or MB236.14 fluid is used any of them will cure a shudder problem that is related to old, spent fluid. The newer spec fluid may help with RSN, but in my mind that is even questionable eg. MB236.10 vs MB236.14 fluid. The MB236.14 fluid was developed for a newer/different transmission than the NAG1. MB236.14 fluid is backward compatible to the NAG1, not required. (Similar to MB229.5 engine oil and MB228.5 engine oil.)
*******

Since you asked I just went out to the garage to see what the two containers I had left said on them. The MT's went to recycle. I had one container that was purchased earlier and used to top off a while ago. They both say Crossfire/Sprinter.

The partial has "05127382AA" on the front. "2000 - 2003 DaimlerChrysler Motor Company LLC" on the back. No MB2XX.XX anywhere I see. I presume that's the old stuff (MB-236.10?) and what I had first for top off because I used 8 full quarts to replenish after the drain.

The unopened container has "MB-236.12" and "05127382AB" on the front, "MB-236.12" top right corner and "2000 - 2005 DaimlerChrysler Motors Company LLC" low on the back.

As I purchased it from the same dealer I could have been given a mix, but I think they were all the "AB" MB-236.12 variety. I didn't even to think to double check. I think I was in shock for a while after the quoted $14+ per quart price. Should I just recycle the "AA" variety or is it still ok for topping off? Added: MB236.10 is fine to use!!!

****************

Edit:
My knowledge base has since expanded, I would no longer be concerned at all that MB236.12 and the original spec MB236.10 may have been intermixed. As the original Operator Manual is always the official reference, there is technically nothing wrong with using MB236.10 spec ATFIII fluid in a T1N NAG1 transmission.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aqua Puttana View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by supermoo View Post
So I just looked in my [2011 NCV3] manual and it shows 236.10 or 236.12 as the recommended oil. The acceptance of .10 makes it easier to find for sure.
Not to rain on your parade as to MB236.10 spec fluid...

Fact.
Finding an MB officially approved MB236.10 spec transmission fluid in N. America will not be easy. If you want to stay with the officially approved fluids most will be MB236.12 or MB236.14 spec.

Opinion.
My 2004 and other T1N Sprinters with the NAG1 transmission came with this transmission fluid maintenance information. (The red arrow was for another discussion.)

2004ManualOilSpec.jpg


Quote:
Originally Posted by 2004 Manual
Additional Maintenance Work

Automatic transmission once only at 80,000 miles/
128000km [Schedule has subsequently been modified.]
...
2006ManualOilSpec.jpg

The once only at 80,000 miles and never again would take a really good fluid to go the distance.

The general opinion of most Sprinter-source members is that the "once only" is not good in practice. A 40 - 60,000 transmission OCI seems reasonable.

If one accepts that a big factor of the MB spec fluid was the long service change interval, then maybe with a shorter interval many other ATF III fluids will give good service.

With a frequent OCI (40 - 60k) Valvoline Maxlife, BG, Amsoil, or other good quality ATF III formulations are probably just fine. Many posts indicate that North American Sprinters are using other than MB spec transmission fluid with good results.

I have no data, or transmission oil testing information.

vic

P.S. - Researching some of the Sprinter-source threads for ATF information reminded me that my opinions about Sprinter fluids have been well... somewhat fluid over the years. Staying with MB spec is usually the easy conservative (often more expensive) approach.
****************

rlent, talkinghorse43,
60,000 sounds reasonable for my use and expected miles per year. Thanks. vic


Quote:
Originally Posted by jdcaples View Post
Did you use MB236.10, MB236.12 or the newer MB236.14 fluid?

-Jon
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Old 12-13-2008, 04:39 AM   #6
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Default Re: Rumble Strip Noise Transmission Drive Train Shudder

These are the three postings that come to mind when I read your posting, regarding ATF specifications:

Andy: http://www.sprinter-source.com/forum...3&postcount=11
Richard: http://www.sprinter-source.com/forum...39&postcount=1
Andy: http://www.sprinter-source.com/forum...0&postcount=12

I'd recycle the open container of MB236.10, if it were me.

-Jon
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Old 12-13-2008, 12:23 PM   #7
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Default Re: Rumble Strip Noise Transmission Drive Train Shudder

The "AA" will certainly not go into my Sprinter NAG1 transmission. 20171218 - That was then. Now I would use MB236.10 "AA" without a second thought. From all the info I get from here and Sprintervan I can't imagine successful DIY on my Sprinter in an information vacuum.Thanks for the links. vic
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdcaples View Post
These are the three postings that come to mind when I read your posting, regarding ATF specifications:

Andy: http://www.sprinter-source.com/forum...3&postcount=11
Richard: http://www.sprinter-source.com/forum...39&postcount=1
Andy: http://www.sprinter-source.com/forum...0&postcount=12

I'd recycle the open container of MB236.10, if it were me.

-Jon
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Last edited by Aqua Puttana; 12-18-2017 at 06:19 PM.
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Old 12-13-2008, 05:02 PM   #8
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Default Re: Rumble Strip Noise Transmission Drive Train Shudder

I bought my 05 used with well over 100k on the clock and changed the trans fluid at around 140k presumably for the first time. I used Redline ATF. My RSN went away almost completely. That was over 10k miles ago and the RSN is now back and is as bad as it was before I changed the fluid.I don't haul any heavy loads with my truck just my tools that way about 300 lbs +/- and the occasional Dirt bike. I drive the truck like there's n egg shell under my foot.I wonder if the OEM fluid would help keep the RSN away longer or if this is the norm for a Nag1 in this condition?
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Old 12-13-2008, 07:55 PM   #9
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Default Re: Rumble Strip Noise Transmission Drive Train Shudder

Quote:
Originally Posted by 05highroof View Post
I bought my 05 used with well over 100k on the clock and changed the trans fluid at around 140k presumably for the first time. I used Redline ATF. My RSN went away almost completely. That was over 10k miles ago and the RSN is now back and is as bad as it was before I changed the fluid.I don't haul any heavy loads with my truck just my tools that way about 300 lbs +/- and the occasional Dirt bike. I drive the truck like there's n egg shell under my foot.I wonder if the OEM fluid would help keep the RSN away longer or if this is the norm for a Nag1 in this condition?
Except for periods near the end of each change, RSN is normal for me and I have only used OEM fluids.
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Old 12-14-2008, 05:24 AM   #10
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Default Re: Rumble Strip Noise Transmission Drive Train Shudder

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aqua Puttana View Post
I know this is yet another thread about the NAG1 transmission RSN and shudder

Before I finally did the change the drive train was doing a shudder in the area of 1800 - 2000 rpm that had me worried I might have a drive shaft universal or other non-transmission related problem.

Anyway, the reason for this post is to point out that my drive train had a heavy shudder that went away completely after I changed the filter and used the Sprinter/Crossfire fluid.
Just to help clarify the distinction-Aqua P had the classic shudder that appears under load, at freeway speeds, with "overdue for replacement" ATF.

It can be alarming and mimic other expensive failure modes.

Not to be confused with RSN which typically occurs at low load , especially "eggshell on throttle" driving style. Doktor A
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