Sprinter-Forum    
 

Go Back   Sprinter-Forum > Sprinter-Based RV's & Conversions > Sprinter RV's & Conversions Write-Ups


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 10-08-2015, 06:32 AM   #21
casmith32
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Boulder,CO
Posts: 195
Thanks: 4
Thanked 68 Times in 38 Posts
Default 2015 170Ē DirtDevil Build - Insulation

Insulation and Sound Dampening

Finally got around to adding sound dampening and insulating the rear of the van. After some serious thought and consideration as to what Iím going to be using the van for, Iíve decided to run with rattle trap and roadkill for sound dampening. And a combination of Low-E for reflective insulation, and Thinsulate and RMax R-Matt Plus-3 rigid polyiso foam.

Used the rattletrap because a friend had some left over from his build. That got me pretty much good for the entire van except the roof and wheel wells. I ordered RoadKill to finish things off. If I had to do it again, Iíd use RoadKill for it all - nice stuff, cheaper I think, and no asphalt. It all came out well though. No need to cover the entire surface area of the van with the stuff though.

Insulation will be a multi-stage deal. After dry testing some combinations, looking at R-values and also looking at where I needed rigidity or not, I decided to go with the following, in order, from the outer van walls toward the inside; will finish off with wall panels as well later:

Upper recesses: rattletrap + 1 layer of 2Ē thick thinsulate + Low-E
Middle window recesses: rattletrap + 1.5Ē of RMAX PolyIso rigid foam + Low-E
Bottom recesses: rattletrap + 2 layers of Thinsulate
Roof: 1 layer of RoadKill + 1.5Ē of RMAX PolyIso rigid foam + Low-E

The walls are pretty much done, except for the fact that I am leaving the Low-E off until I get all my electrical run and situated...

Went ahead and put a double layer of 2" wide thinsulate in the middle channels; Just snaked them through the oblong holes and pulled them the length of the run. Pretty much put thinsulate in all the nooks and crannys I could.

Rear and slider doors got a healthy dose of thinsulate as well - I spend a lot of time working it in those things !! but happy how it turned out. I get a good "thump" when closing them now. Solid sounding!

For the bottom recesses I determined that there was enough room to put two layers of Thinsulate and not really compress it! - So that gives an estimated R-value of about R10 - give or take. Couple that with the Low-e, I think it will be really good. Iím happy with how itís looking so far.

For the Middle window recesses, I decided to go with the RMax Polyiso because I want some rigidity in those areas since Iíll be running some L-Track and other things along the wall. Iíll be reinforcing the walls and roof in some parts with some metal sheeting of some flavor (SS, or painted steel, etc), so the foam will give a nice firm area to play with, while giving an estimated R-value of close to 10+ with the Low-E.

Lastly, the Roof - I want the most reflective insulation possible; Iím struggling on whether to run with the 1.5Ē Rmax to get an Rvalue of R13, followed by the Low-E (R6). OR go with the Thinsulate (R5) and the Low-E (R6) - I can get approx R11 with the proper small airgap (specs say that Low-E in horizontal applications gets R6 mostly).

Iím going to be shimming out the roof with some 1/4 boards to provide a surface for the roof panels to mount on, as well as give me just a little bit more gap between the insulation and the Low-e.

Given I have a lot of leftover Thinsulate, ponder if R11 is good enough for me; also considering it wonít cost me any more money. Although, the RMAX isnít too bad in terms of cost for the amount Iíll need. However the other option could yield upwards of R19 combination with the right air gap. Thatís pretty significant. Iím also thinking of the fact that Iíll have upwards of 300-400 watts of Solar on the roof, collecting the sun at times.

Before I seal it all up with Low-E, I need to go and seal the side trim mounting tabs on the inside, everywhere I can - with some sealant. Or do folks think it's overkill ? The thinsulate is hydrophobic after all...

Interested in everyoneís thoughts.
casmith32 is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to casmith32 For This Useful Post:
anoldfireman (03-15-2016), jamesthomsen (11-29-2015), ryneodonnell (10-18-2015)
Old 10-18-2015, 03:19 AM   #22
ryneodonnell
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 38
Thanks: 14
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default Re: 2015 170Ē DirtDevil Build - Insulation

Quote:
Originally Posted by casmith32 View Post
Insulation and Sound Dampening

Finally got around to adding sound dampening and insulating the rear of the van. After some serious thought and consideration as to what Iím going to be using the van for, Iíve decided to run with rattle trap and roadkill for sound dampening. And a combination of Low-E for reflective insulation, and Thinsulate and RMax R-Matt Plus-3 rigid polyiso foam.

Used the rattletrap because a friend had some left over from his build. That got me pretty much good for the entire van except the roof and wheel wells. I ordered RoadKill to finish things off. If I had to do it again, Iíd use RoadKill for it all - nice stuff, cheaper I think, and no asphalt. It all came out well though. No need to cover the entire surface area of the van with the stuff though.

Insulation will be a multi-stage deal. After dry testing some combinations, looking at R-values and also looking at where I needed rigidity or not, I decided to go with the following, in order, from the outer van walls toward the inside; will finish off with wall panels as well later:

Upper recesses: rattletrap + 1 layer of 2Ē thick thinsulate + Low-E
Middle window recesses: rattletrap + 1.5Ē of RMAX PolyIso rigid foam + Low-E
Bottom recesses: rattletrap + 2 layers of Thinsulate
Roof: 1 layer of RoadKill + 1.5Ē of RMAX PolyIso rigid foam + Low-E

The walls are pretty much done, except for the fact that I am leaving the Low-E off until I get all my electrical run and situated...

Went ahead and put a double layer of 2" wide thinsulate in the middle channels; Just snaked them through the oblong holes and pulled them the length of the run. Pretty much put thinsulate in all the nooks and crannys I could.

Rear and slider doors got a healthy dose of thinsulate as well - I spend a lot of time working it in those things !! but happy how it turned out. I get a good "thump" when closing them now. Solid sounding!

For the bottom recesses I determined that there was enough room to put two layers of Thinsulate and not really compress it! - So that gives an estimated R-value of about R10 - give or take. Couple that with the Low-e, I think it will be really good. Iím happy with how itís looking so far.

For the Middle window recesses, I decided to go with the RMax Polyiso because I want some rigidity in those areas since Iíll be running some L-Track and other things along the wall. Iíll be reinforcing the walls and roof in some parts with some metal sheeting of some flavor (SS, or painted steel, etc), so the foam will give a nice firm area to play with, while giving an estimated R-value of close to 10+ with the Low-E.

Lastly, the Roof - I want the most reflective insulation possible; Iím struggling on whether to run with the 1.5Ē Rmax to get an Rvalue of R13, followed by the Low-E (R6). OR go with the Thinsulate (R5) and the Low-E (R6) - I can get approx R11 with the proper small airgap (specs say that Low-E in horizontal applications gets R6 mostly).

Iím going to be shimming out the roof with some 1/4 boards to provide a surface for the roof panels to mount on, as well as give me just a little bit more gap between the insulation and the Low-e.

Given I have a lot of leftover Thinsulate, ponder if R11 is good enough for me; also considering it wonít cost me any more money. Although, the RMAX isnít too bad in terms of cost for the amount Iíll need. However the other option could yield upwards of R19 combination with the right air gap. Thatís pretty significant. Iím also thinking of the fact that Iíll have upwards of 300-400 watts of Solar on the roof, collecting the sun at times.

Before I seal it all up with Low-E, I need to go and seal the side trim mounting tabs on the inside, everywhere I can - with some sealant. Or do folks think it's overkill ? The thinsulate is hydrophobic after all...

Interested in everyoneís thoughts.
Thank you for the details on your build!

Curious, how many labor hours did it take for the following casmith?

- Front Cab Insulation & Stereo Install
- Rear Cargo Area Insulation & Stereo Install
- Fan Install

Trying to gauge what it will be like labor wise for my upcoming build.

Thank you!

-Ryne
ryneodonnell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-19-2015, 02:16 PM   #23
hein
Mech. Engineer CAD/CNC
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: PacNW
Posts: 1,821
Thanks: 1,143
Thanked 1,266 Times in 745 Posts
Default Re: 2015 170Ē DirtDevil Build

Thank your for sharing your impressive insulation strategy. Rain on a metal van roof can be pretty loud. Thinsulate(TM) could let you sleep though it.
__________________
2010 MB 3500 RV conversion.
hein is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to hein For This Useful Post:
jamesthomsen (12-29-2015)
Old 10-19-2015, 05:27 PM   #24
casmith32
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Boulder,CO
Posts: 195
Thanks: 4
Thanked 68 Times in 38 Posts
Default Re: 2015 170Ē DirtDevil Build - Insulation

@ryneodonnell

I'm pretty mechanically and technically inclined (engineer), so I'm a bit methodical and cautious in my planning - sometimes to a fault...so things took longer than I'd like for the simple fact that I pondered materials, methods, usage, etc.. but in terms of estimated hours of actual "work" time vs planning, etc:

Probably a total of 8-10 hrs for the front cab stereo and insulation on the headliner/doors

About 8 hrs total for the rear insulation- including working things into the nooks and crannys

Fan Install - probably a total of 6 hours of actual work over 3 days. There is a certain pucker factor when cutting into a brand new 2015 van when you've never done it before; thus lots of time measuring, making template, remeasuring, dry fitting, etc...

For me, the first time of doing something always takes longer because I'm very cautious and methodical to make sure I'm doing a quality job. So now that I know how all this stuff works, and how things pop off, connect, etc, I can do it much faster with much more confidence...

For example - now I could knock out the two fan installs easily in a half a day I think... as in most things..preparation is what take a lot of the time..

Quote:
Originally Posted by ryneodonnell View Post
Thank you for the details on your build!

Curious, how many labor hours did it take for the following casmith?

- Front Cab Insulation & Stereo Install
- Rear Cargo Area Insulation & Stereo Install
- Fan Install

Trying to gauge what it will be like labor wise for my upcoming build.

Thank you!

-Ryne
casmith32 is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to casmith32 For This Useful Post:
jed_williams (11-14-2015)
Old 10-19-2015, 05:40 PM   #25
casmith32
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Boulder,CO
Posts: 195
Thanks: 4
Thanked 68 Times in 38 Posts
Default Re: 2015 170Ē DirtDevil Build

Quote:
Originally Posted by hein View Post
Thank your for sharing your impressive insulation strategy. Rain on a metal van roof can be pretty loud. Thinsulate(TM) could let you sleep though it.
Thanks Hein - my thought is that I like the idea of a bit more rigidity / solid backing in the larger voids of the van ; window recesses, and ceiling recesses. Mainly because I'll be hanging things and running l-track on the walls. That said, I'm planning on running strips of 6" wide aluminum or SS sheet/plating to reinforce the walls behind the wall panels to add a larger spread of support for wall panels, and L-track that will run on the walls; So maybe the 4" of thinsulate will work just fine.

For the ceiling, I may just use the thinsulate I have left over on the ceiling as well with the Low-E - should get a pretty good high R value yes ? thinking 10-15 with the proper air gap. I may run 1/4" furring strips lengthwise on the ceiling for mounting the ceiling panels easily and give a slight air-gap but I think the Thinsulate is enough airgap...
casmith32 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2015, 07:33 PM   #26
casmith32
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Boulder,CO
Posts: 195
Thanks: 4
Thanked 68 Times in 38 Posts
Default DirtDevil Build Electrical system critique requested

Finally got the draft of my proposed electrical plan together. Looking for some input from the forum to see what is good, and what's not. I've attached both pdf and dwg files - but I built the diagram in microsoft visio - so not sure if the dwg exported well or not.

On the diagram I've got some yellow boxes indicating some questions I have in particular. Everything outside the seat pedestals will be located near roughly behind the driver's seat / driver side window; either down low or up high in overhead cabinet.

Running a MS2000 inverter/charger to support brief use of induction hotplate, elec. tea kettle, and a nespresso machine (yes I said it !)...

I've indicated some rough distances on the cable runs as well. Interested in any feedback for sure.
Sprinter-ElecSys.pdf
Attached Files
File Type: zip Sprinter-ElecSys.dwg.zip (195.3 KB, 179 views)

Last edited by casmith32; 11-04-2015 at 07:36 PM.
casmith32 is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to casmith32 For This Useful Post:
brockclimber (01-03-2017), jamesthomsen (12-29-2015)
Old 11-04-2015, 08:33 PM   #27
Midwestdrifter
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Australia - Somewhere
Posts: 3,498
Thanks: 648
Thanked 2,285 Times in 1,430 Posts
Default Re: 2015 170Ē DirtDevil Build

I have reviewed your diagram. Attached is a markup with my suggestions.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Sprinter-ElecSys-Markup.pdf (761.1 KB, 479 views)
__________________
2004 T1N | Overland Conversion in Process Completed...For now... | 101,000 118,XXX 137,078 150,000 miles | 140" | High Roof | My Build Thread
Another Random Blog | http://VagariesAbound.blogspot.com
Midwestdrifter is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Midwestdrifter For This Useful Post:
brockclimber (01-03-2017), gromer (11-10-2017)
Old 11-05-2015, 01:57 AM   #28
casmith32
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Boulder,CO
Posts: 195
Thanks: 4
Thanked 68 Times in 38 Posts
Default DirtDevil Build Electrical system critique requested

Thanks @ Midwestdrifter ! much appreciated. Have a couple follow ups....

1 - "10/3 is not needed for max 15A outlets"
==> I apologize for the confusion; That was intended to mean "3-conductor wire"; so if I was using house wire - yes it'd be 10/2 technically - marine wire seems to not "imply" a third wire exists like house wire - so I was just being explicit here as I may use marine wire...

2 - "Ground and AUX negative should be bonded, so either is acceptable. "
==> Not quite clear as to what the answer here is - do you mean that is okay to ground the battery isolator/charge relay to the chassis ground OR the house/aux neg busbar ?

3 - "Consider connecting inverter directly to shunt."
==> interested in the reasoning for this just for my education - I can see the advantage of one less hop in the path, but the positive is still going through the busbar. Is the idea to keep the number of "hops" in the path equal ?

I've also had suggestions to run the inverter pos+ straight to the battery, as well as the solar charge controller, for best charging performance. Does that jive ?

My goal was to have the busbars and shunt in the driver seat, to leave room to expand my battery bank in the future ; either adding two more in the passenger seat, or moving the battery bank in the future if needed. My thought was that it would be easier from a connectivity standpoint, minimizing the large runs to the batteries; thoughts on that ? Is also terminating the Solar charge controller to the busbars detrimental ? I realize it's sub-optimal.

4 - "You need a Chassis ground connected for Alternator charging. "
==> Are you implying that the Neg Busbar for the house/aux system needs to be grounded to the chassis ? I thought that would lend potential for grounding loops ? I want to keep the vehicle and house systems separate.

Another question around the alternator charging is how various charge relays/isolators deal with the flat voltage curve of the LifePo4 battery with respect to charging? I'm trying to find one that's compatible...

5 - " Move to other side of shunt" - not quite clear as what you are referring to ?

6 - Breaker for Solar feed from MPPT controller - "Closer is better, as unprotected wire is undesirable. I think AYBC allows for 2ft? If you sufficiently protect the wire from possible damage you can go farther. You might consider attaching the + cable after the disconnect switch. "
==> Understood ! However I thought this is okay since the majority of flow is charging the battery, vs drawing from the battery. Thus I'd want to protect closer to the MPPT controller since it's sending potential large loads.

7 - Portable Solar connection - See your point. I'd be potentially be using the flexible version of the 100W panel, which is close in specs. OR I may just move the connection to terminating directly on either the batteries or busbar in the driver seat; and use a zamp solar portable unit with controller. I'm assuming there won't be any "fighting" going on between the two solar charge controllers if they are both actively charging ? Has anyone seen any issues with that ? My preference is to have one controller in the mix...

8 - "For best charging connect as close to alternator a possible. Fuse to protect your wiring. Choose wiring for expected load and desired voltage drop. 150A works for 2 gauge and should handle any expected alternator charging load. "
==> perfect thanks - my intent is to come off the same terminal 4 on the pre-fuse block, similar to what the aux battery retrofit says. And obviously fuse it as suggested.


Great comments - thanks again !!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Midwestdrifter View Post
I have reviewed your diagram. Attached is a markup with my suggestions.
casmith32 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2015, 02:13 PM   #29
Midwestdrifter
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Australia - Somewhere
Posts: 3,498
Thanks: 648
Thanked 2,285 Times in 1,430 Posts
Default Re: 2015 170Ē DirtDevil Build

Let me explain my notes further.

1. I was referring to the wire size. For 15A service 14 or 12 gauge is the most you would need. For runs under 20 ft 14 gauge would work fine. If you are using 15A outlets and appliances you should have a 15A breaker or fuse for them. Blue sea has a nice 3 circuit 15A/120v breaker panel.

2. If you intend to charge from your alternator you MUST have the chassis and AUX grounds connected. You wouldn't only connect the positive cable on a battery charger and expect it to work?

3.For high current users you want to reduce the resistance of the DC wiring as much as is reasonable. This means reducing both wire length AND connections. Each connection/termination/splice add a small amount of resistance. There is no reason to go directly to the battery unless it substantially reduces your cable length or removes a number of connections. The reason I suggested going directly to the shunt is that it MIGHT remove a connection. If your shunt is not close to your buss bar, then its a moot point.

Since you are using properly sized cables, there is no need to run your solar charger directly to the battery unless it substantially reduces cable resistance/length. Even then, its a reducing returns situation as the 4/0 cable is very low resistance. For example I have 4ftx2 of 4/0 cable between my batteries and my chargers/consumers. This is due to my batteries be underbody mounted. My solar controllers and inverter are connected to the shunt/buss-bar.

4. Yes See item 2. You cannot use alternator current without a path to the vehicle ground. Regarding charging due to the higher voltage of lithium batteries, your isolator may not open until they are discharged somewhat. This probably wont be an issue, but again I have never used lithium packs like yours. Does your battery monitor have a programmable output? If you so you could use it to trigger an isolator on/off based on voltage or SOC setpoints.

5. All current on the negative side MUST go through the shunt. Your solar negative wire bypasses the shunt, so you battery monitor cannot see the charging current.

6. You have 2 sources on this wire. However the batteries are by far the highest current source. The fault current for the solar controller is not very high. But the batteries is VERY large. If the wire faults to ground between the breaker and the battery a fire could result. The breaker is designed to protect the wire. Having lots of unprotected wire on the battery side of the breaker is not good design practice.

7. The controllers wont fight each other any more than the alternator and the solar controller will. They should ideally have similar setpoints.

Another note, you might consider running your 2/0 isolator cable to the other side of your disconnect switch. The point of a disconnect is to remove all power from the system in an emergency or during servicing.
__________________
2004 T1N | Overland Conversion in Process Completed...For now... | 101,000 118,XXX 137,078 150,000 miles | 140" | High Roof | My Build Thread
Another Random Blog | http://VagariesAbound.blogspot.com
Midwestdrifter is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Midwestdrifter For This Useful Post:
jamesthomsen (11-29-2015), raisin (11-05-2015)
Old 11-05-2015, 03:12 PM   #30
raisin
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 61
Thanks: 55
Thanked 14 Times in 10 Posts
Default Re: 2015 170Ē DirtDevil Build

i am working on an approach very similar to your elec system but will start a new thread so as not to encroach on yours. thanks for posting
raisin is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 01:50 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.