Sprinter-Forum    
 

Go Back   Sprinter-Forum > Sprinter-Based RV's & Conversions > Sprinter-Based RV Brands > Airstream > Sprinter Westfalia


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 10-13-2017, 06:31 PM   #41
Kiltym
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 173
Thanks: 12
Thanked 14 Times in 13 Posts
Default Re: Wiring idea for charging house batteries

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldWest View Post
Why couldn't new switch just be on new wire (move new switch on schematic an inch over to right so nothing between K52 and DC-DC charger? Switch (on/off type, not a choose power source switch) would be at end of the new wire only, right before the DC-DC charger.

So whenever engine is on, there is always power to DC-DC charger (never have to worry about forgetting to switch over to engine power).

Problem with Reverse current?

Engine on, Switch OFF: DC-DC charger powered.by engine alternator.. No power coming from Meanwell converters. No power going to Meanwell converters.

Engine on, Switch on, ShorepowerGenerator on: Two sources of power from engine alternator and Meanwell converters. Does this work or do two sources of power into DC-DC charger create a problem?

Engine Off, Switch On, Shorepower/Generator: Power from Meanwell.Converters.

Engine on, Switch on: PROBLEM? Does power from engine alternator go to DC-DC charger AND in reverse direction into Meanwell converters so a PROBLEM?

Is this where the diode comes into play?

To respond to this, I think both items above you question, I also question.

I don't think running two source simultaneously into the dc-dc charger is a good idea.

And when engine on, switch on, I am not 100% sure either way with this, so was erring on the side of caution to avoid damaging converter.

So, it could work, but I feel there are bad "states" the switch could be in. With the either-or switch, this is avoided. Only one source connected at a time to charger, and in turn, house bank.

As is with wire from Kiss relay, same idea.
Kiltym is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-13-2017, 06:36 PM   #42
OldWest
T1N Westfalia
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,392
Thanks: 115
Thanked 377 Times in 293 Posts
Default Re: Wiring idea for charging house batteries

Side Notes:

1. Safety re Kissling Relay

Some other posters.here mentioned the high amps the Kissling Relay handles.

https://sprinter-source.com/forum/sh...light=Kissling

https://sprinter-source.com/forum/sh...7&postcount=29

Also, one or more posters had loose connections at the Kissling Relay which caused severe scorching in the area.

https://sprinter-source.com/forum/sh...5&postcount=35

2. Proper Installation Position of Kissling Relay

Search for OneManVan's posts on the Kissling Relay and how it works. Some wear and tear oe corrosion issues?

https://sprinter-source.com/forum/sh...48&postcount=7

The existing vertical position combined with vehicle jostling was apparently not a good way to go.

Don't remember if there was a better installation (horizontal position).

Tapping/rapping with a wood handle was one quick remedy to dislodge stuck Kissling Relay.

Some possibly useful info and photos in this thread.

https://sprinter-source.com/forum/sh...light=Kissling

Note: Some posters may have tracked down a source for the Kissling Relay, but I remember as being a couple hundred dollars. May want to carry a spare or a spare manual switch replacement if relying on the Kissling Relay for more.than the Kerstner air conditioner.

https://sprinter-source.com/forum/sh...5&postcount=38

3. Too Much for Engine Alternator: Discharged House Batteries/Sprinter Engine Air Conditioner--Anecdotal

When house batteries were discharged, the Kerstner air conditioner would not work off engine alternator.

But, if house batteries had been charged overnight, no problem with air conditioner.

One theory was that the engine alternator had too much load with both discharged house batteries and running air conditioner (or even making Kissling Relay work?).

Same issie with turning Kerstner AC on first, and then the Sprinter engine air conditioner.

This is all anecdotal and discussions with various Airstream techs.

(Similar story with discharged house batteries and same circuit microwave tripping circuit breaker--no problem with tripping if house batteries already charged.)

4. Harmonic Balancer, Alternator

But, for Sprinters with Sprinter rear air conditioners with extra pulley and belt in engine, harmonic balancer failure is more frequent (and maybe more frequent with Class C 3500 RVs).

And as to alternator, question is still open as to what type of duty cycles our Bosch alternator is designed to handle.

-----

Like waiting for Christmas. What will you do? Lots of photos please.

Last edited by OldWest; 10-13-2017 at 06:59 PM. Reason: Add links.
OldWest is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2017, 08:51 PM   #43
onemanvan
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Benson Arizona
Posts: 183
Thanks: 41
Thanked 117 Times in 72 Posts
Default Re: Wiring idea for charging house batteries

I received the Kisae/Abso DMT-1230 DC to DC charger and performed a number of different tests. It seems to be a pretty good charger and mostly works as advertised. Anyone considering purchasing one of these should be aware that as the manufacturer recommends cable size is critical to good performance. IE: very heavy gauge cables are necessary! It's especially critical in the cables between the output of the charger and the input to the battery. I was testing with 10 gauge wires - only 12 inches between the charger and the battery - seeing a .3 volt drop at 30 amps. With a lithium battery .3 volts can be the difference between life and death...

However - for me - 13.9 volts is too high a voltage for my lithium batteries. The cells got more than 100 millivolts ie: .1 volt out of sync. I don't think I redlined any cells but it was scary how quickly and drastically things began to get out of hand. Given a choice between having to babysit the charger and possibly killing the battery I have to choose babysitting. Live and learn...

It was disappointing to realize the DMT-1230 would not work out as a charger for my lithium battery system. Initially I thought I would return it for a refund. Then I changed my mind and decided to keep it and use it for my AGM battery bank.

I discovered a couple of things so far with regard to installing it.

!) In the past I had difficulty routing wires along the driver side of the van between the black water holding tank area and the Westy OEM battery charger area. There's a lot of 'stuff' crammed into that area which makes fishing a new wire through that area difficult. I took another look at it with an inspection mirror and found a relatively clear path between the two points. The clear path may vary between various Westy's so no guarantee this will work for everyone. I attached a couple of pictures showing the new 6 AWG red cable at both ends of where I 'fished' it - black tank area and Westy OEM charger area. The 'path' was at the elevation pictured and it 'hugged' the cabinet walls. IE: it was as far from the van's metal walls as possible.

2) I had thought I would mount the DMT-1230 in the cubby hole under the kitchen drain board. I temporarily powered it up and put it where I thought it would offer good viewing of the LCD display. Unfortunately this LCD display is unreadable when viewed from above. Another possible location is in the cabinet adjacent to the trash 'can'. You have to squat down to read the LCD but I find that's easier than standing on my head in the cubby hole:-)
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG_20171023_112756 - Edited.jpg (83.3 KB, 43 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_20171023_113358 - Edited.jpg (81.9 KB, 42 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_20171023_113913 - Edited.jpg (119.7 KB, 42 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_20171023_113828 - Edited.jpg (79.0 KB, 42 views)
onemanvan is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to onemanvan For This Useful Post:
hein (10-25-2017)
Old 10-25-2017, 03:39 PM   #44
onemanvan
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Benson Arizona
Posts: 183
Thanks: 41
Thanked 117 Times in 72 Posts
Default Re: Wiring idea for charging house batteries

How to adjust DC voltage output of the Mean Well power supplies.

The forward most converter is the master and the rearmost converter is the slave. The adjustment screw on the master unit is the one to turn. You can see it at the top of this photo, just above the green LED. Disconnect 120 AC to the slave unit before adjusting the master.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG_0401 - Edited.jpg (148.9 KB, 38 views)
onemanvan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2017, 05:08 PM   #45
onemanvan
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Benson Arizona
Posts: 183
Thanks: 41
Thanked 117 Times in 72 Posts
Default Re: Wiring idea for charging house batteries

Lot of work - almost a month later the new charger is finally wired in.

1) Charge via alternator:
a) Previously the charge voltage was single stage
Now there is 3 stage charging

2) Charge via shore power or generator:
a) Previously the charge voltage was single stage
Now there is 3 stage charging
b) Previously charge current was 10 amps max
Now charge current is 30 amps max
c) Note: current source is Mean Well converter

3) Charge via solar:
a) Previously the charge profile was limited to lead acid or gel
Now there are charge profiles for lead acid, gel, agm, lithium and program/custom
b) Previously temperature compensation was built into the charge controller
Now there is a remote temperature sensor at the battery bank
c) Previously the charge controller was PWM
Now there is MPPT charging

4) Previously choice of charging source - alternator vs solar was manual
Now current source is automatically switched to alternator when engine is running
Note: Because I replaced the Kissling relay with a manual battery switch -
choice between alternator and Mean Well converter is manual

DMT1230 DC to DC charger, circuit breakers and associated wiring ( AGM profile ):
Alternator/Mean Well input << >> Solar input <<>> Output to AGM battery bank
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG_20171119_135123.jpg (108.4 KB, 26 views)
File Type: png Screenshot 2017-11-20 at 10.16.59 AM.png (241.7 KB, 26 views)

Last edited by onemanvan; 11-20-2017 at 05:19 PM.
onemanvan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2017, 06:27 PM   #46
OldWest
T1N Westfalia
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,392
Thanks: 115
Thanked 377 Times in 293 Posts
Default Re: Wiring idea for charging house batteries

OneManVan:

Don't remember. So did you get rid of the original Westy 10 amp battery charger (it's valuable as a Westfalia museum piece so don't discard)?

Or replace with something else, like a maintenance charger (so if no solar or if don't want to rely on Meanwell converters for current--too many things running)?

I'm assuming the new DC charger wouldn't fit in the original.battery charger space as well as wiring and visible display (no remote display?) issues.
OldWest is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2017, 08:40 PM   #47
onemanvan
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Benson Arizona
Posts: 183
Thanks: 41
Thanked 117 Times in 72 Posts
Default Re: Wiring idea for charging house batteries

The OEM battery charger is still in place - no changes to OEM configuration - can still use that to charge AGM battery bank as before.

There weren't many viable options for location of new DC2DC charger. The cabinet under the sink was about the only place that worked for me. IE: Central location with respect to wire runs, physical space available for the charger, circuit breakers, wiring and ability to read the display and access the control panel push buttons.

When implementing any new MOD's I try NOT to modify the original Westy configuration.

I had previously replaced the Kissling relay with a battery switch because the OEM relay was problematic... I had also added an on-off-on switch to the coil of relay K52 ( AUX battery isolation relay ). Both those mod's are still in place - so I can still charge the AGM batteries with the alternator via the original configuration. But with the new dc2dc charger I'll probably leave the K52 switch in the OFF position most of the time...

So - basically I've left the OEM configuration intact and added new functionality 'on top of' what was already there.

One addendum to the dc2dc charger installation overview. I did find it necessary to revise the relay wiring associated with the battery selector switch. I call it the A/C enable relay. The original Kissling relay provided an output signal to the Kerstner A/C to indicate when power was available - IE: alternator, generator, shore power. With a manual battery switch it's preferable to have a 'safety interlock' in place to prevent running the A/C directly off the starter battery when the engine is NOT running. This same A/C enable signal is required for input to the dc2dc charger ( AKA ignition sense input ).

Schematic for A/C enable relay circuit:

Note: The diode between the alternator field coil and relay coil is there to prevent current from flowing out of the Mean Well converter back through the alternator field coil to ground ( IE: dead short to ground!). And in general to simply isolate the two power sources - both of which need to be connected to the relay coil.
Attached Images
File Type: png AC-enable-relay (2).png (18.2 KB, 23 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_20171120_135806.jpg (171.3 KB, 21 views)

Last edited by onemanvan; 11-20-2017 at 09:03 PM.
onemanvan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2017, 09:15 PM   #48
Kiltym
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 173
Thanks: 12
Thanked 14 Times in 13 Posts
Default Re: Wiring idea for charging house batteries

Quote:
Originally Posted by onemanvan View Post
One addendum to the dc2dc charger installation overview. I did find it necessary to revise the relay wiring associated with the battery selector switch. I call it the A/C enable relay. The original Kissling relay provided an output signal to the Kerstner A/C to indicate when power was available - IE: alternator, generator, shore power. With a manual battery switch it's preferable to have a 'safety interlock' in place to prevent running the A/C directly off the starter battery when the engine is NOT running. This same A/C enable signal is required for input to the dc2dc charger ( AKA ignition sense input ).

My understanding is that the charger does not actually need the "ignition sense" wire. Did you find otherwise?

According to the DMT-1230 manual, the ignition sense is an "override" to force the charger to charge (basically use a lower startup voltage), instead of normal operation of charger seeing > 13.2 V available, and starting the charge cycle....

Curious as to why you needed it?

Also, it appears you added a breaker between the Kiss Relay/Battery switch and the charger. Is this not redundant since both the wires from the start battery and the converter (which both bass through the Kiss relay/switch), are fused? Not sure why that was necessary, or just being extra careful?

Thanks for the feedback.
Kiltym is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2017, 12:23 AM   #49
onemanvan
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Benson Arizona
Posts: 183
Thanks: 41
Thanked 117 Times in 72 Posts
Default Re: Wiring idea for charging house batteries

Based on the limited testing I've done it would appear that ignition sense ( priority mode ) is redundant - IE: when both solar and alternator are available and ignition sense wire is disconnected the charger still automatically switches to alternator charge source.

However... There is this somewhat vague comment that seems to indicate that under some circumstances ignition sense ( priority mode ) is necessary to toggle from solar to alternator.

"This setting mode ( priority ) is used when CH2 (Solar) is available but the charging current is too small due to the availability of sunlight."

It was no big deal to add the wire for ignition sense - going forward I'll perform further testing to determine if there is any value added. If not - then I'll pull the fuse and forget about it...

Regarding the breakers - I had an email exchange with Ricardo at Kisae tech support about the consequences of latching K52 to run the microwave or boost a dead starter battery. He seemed to think that might damage the DMT1230. In effect that would be the same as shorting CH3 to CH1. I explained that I had 100 amp fuses but he thought it would be best if I added the recommended 50 amp fuses/breakers. I guess it's better to be safe than sorry. If ever something internal to the DMT1230 shorted out - such that more than 50 amps was being drawn - there could be a potential for a fire... Also - it's recommended that disconnect switches be installed for all inputs and outputs to the DMT1230. The breakers serve that purpose as well - IE: the breakers can be switched OFF.

Last edited by onemanvan; 11-21-2017 at 03:29 PM.
onemanvan is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to onemanvan For This Useful Post:
brownvan (01-30-2018), Kiltym (11-21-2017)
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 11:15 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.