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Old 02-06-2016, 11:51 PM   #111
Aqua Puttana
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Default Re: Peas and Carrots

Ok. I'll bite on this one.

I'm not a research scientist, but I stayed at a Holiday Inn last night petroleum research lab overnight a few times. (I seriously did.)

Question.

How much water in fuel does it take to screw up a Sprinter engine?

I'm thinkin' not much.

Question.

How high does the water percentage need to be before a layman can detect it in a clear bottle sample?

I'm thinkin' that it needs to be higher than "not much".

If you believe those telling us that the newer vehicle diesel engines are more sensitive to water in fuel, then even intimate contact with older technology marine diesels and DIY testing of marine fuel may not provide enough experience to visually verify fuel as ok for Sprinter use.

Question.

How many fuel disaster stories are there for USA Sprinters? Not Duramax diesels or other diesel engines with a different fuel filtration system, Mercedes Sprinters.

I'm thinkin' not many.

Statement with opinion.

I'm not an expert.

The expert who wrote the article in Dmax thinks that a pre-filter is worthwhile.

The author indicates that a pre-filter helps to address many problems.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DMax Store Article
That leads us to the reason the pre-filter solved the problem. Suddenly the main filter had a much more manageable task: all it had to do was catch the small fraction of larger particles that made it through the pre-filter. The percentage of water and other contaminants making it through to the injectors dropped dramatically. The presence of a good pre-filter along with proper maintenance in keeping with the main filter service intervals generally allowed the early Duramax injectors to run quite happily.
Mercedes Benz has provided a Water In Fuel WIF monitor system. Anyone who has been reading here now knows that it is flirting with disaster to not properly respond to a WIF warning. It is a warning as to water in your fuel. Period. The drain procedure is not a cure if there is too much water for it to handle.

Many of the WIF disaster stories have included trying to address the WIF problem using the OEM drain capability and dispersant additives. Unfortunately for them, but fortunately for those who will listen, we now know to not mess around if a WIF warning comes up on your dash.

I'm likely going to install a Mahle pre-filter. Partially because it will make my future filter changes less expensive and easier to do.

I will not be pumping stinky fuel into any type of container for testing every time that I fuel up.

vic
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Old 02-07-2016, 02:29 AM   #112
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Default Re: Peas and Carrots

Seriously, This is all you got out of that! .......
Quote:
Originally Posted by smiller View Post
Seriously, you're suggesting that every time we fuel we take a sample in a jar and inspect it?
I'll provide you with this ⬇️ With time to think: (sorry me and iPad unable to insert ;(butt here ) I tried .


I strongly suggest that before asking a question u reflect on what the reply will be!

Position yourself before you squeez out such a face expressing question feeling thought before-asKing.



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Old 02-07-2016, 03:58 AM   #113
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Seriously, you're suggesting that every time we fuel we take a sample in a jar and inspect it?
All are free to do what they want, but think of the result if many did. Right now, we're rolling the dice everytime we fill. The vendors have little reason to change since their product is invisible until the problem is acute. Chronic and low level violators undoubtedly continue to do business and cumulative damage to fuel systems that when vehicle owners need repairs are impossible to trace to the source. As I wrote before, my WIF experience was due to a ground water leak, but the truck stop manager also told me that their WIF detection equipment was broken at the time so they were flying blind due to poor maintenance and non-existent quality control - their product was invisible to them as well. I say make it visible to all and vendor behavior may change.
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Old 02-07-2016, 02:41 PM   #114
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Default Re: Peas and Carrots

The diesel dispenser of the "future".
http://www.gaspumphobbyist.com/Visables.html
With the addition of a small funnel and a similar empty container to temporarily store any contaminated fuel, the pictured will be used for my first attempts - it's transparent plastic (PETE), not glass.
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Old 02-07-2016, 04:24 PM   #115
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Default Re: Peas and Carrots

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aqua Puttana View Post
Question.

How much water in fuel does it take to screw up a Sprinter engine?

I'm thinkin' not much.

Question.

How high does the water percentage need to be before a layman can detect it in a clear bottle sample?

I'm thinkin' that it needs to be higher than "not much".
500 ppm (0.05%) water is the max spec for ULSD (http://www.usor.com/files/pdf/5/ULSDspec.pdf). "At room temperature ULSD will not typically hold more than 50 to 100 ppm of water in solution. Any excess water will eventually settle out of solution and create cloudiness in the fuel .Temperature and water retention have a linear relationship, warm fuel retains more moisture, conversely decreasing temperature results in decreasing solubility, increasing the content of free water in the system." (http://www.pei.org/sites/default/fil...gn=TL-03122015)
Visually then, you can determine a lower water content than the industry spec.
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Old 02-07-2016, 04:43 PM   #116
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Default Re: Peas and Carrots

Quote:
Originally Posted by talkinghorse43 View Post
500 ppm (0.05%) water is the max spec for ULSD (http://www.usor.com/files/pdf/5/ULSDspec.pdf). "At room temperature ULSD will not typically hold more than 50 to 100 ppm of water in solution. Any excess water will eventually settle out of solution and create cloudiness in the fuel .Temperature and water retention have a linear relationship, warm fuel retains more moisture, conversely decreasing temperature results in decreasing solubility, increasing the content of free water in the system." (http://www.pei.org/sites/default/fil...gn=TL-03122015)
Visually then, you can determine a lower water content than the industry spec.
Thanks. Good information for you to have for your testing.

The fuel stored in in-ground tanks is generally cooler than ambient. Better chance for moisture to precipitate to the sump. The above ground tank fuel temperatures will more rise and fall with changes in ambient. That would suggest that the fuel from above ground tanks has the ability to hold more moisture, but less chance of ground water or other moisture intrusion. Then again, the venting will breathe more as compared to an in-ground tank.

Keep us informed as to how many off grade fuel sources that you uncover. Even armed with the new method I presume that you plan to stay with high volume stations rather than embarking on a search mission.

Have fun. vic
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Old 02-08-2016, 07:10 PM   #117
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Default Re: Peas and Carrots

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aqua Puttana View Post
Good information for you to have for your testing.

The fuel stored in in-ground tanks is generally cooler than ambient. Better chance for moisture to precipitate to the sump. The above ground tank fuel temperatures will more rise and fall with changes in ambient. That would suggest that the fuel from above ground tanks has the ability to hold more moisture, but less chance of ground water or other moisture intrusion. Then again, the venting will breathe more as compared to an in-ground tank.

Keep us informed as to how many off grade fuel sources that you uncover. Even armed with the new method I presume that you plan to stay with high volume stations rather than embarking on a search mission.
A narrative account of events, experiences, as how three Sprinters got contaiminet fuel would be interesting and informative.

Three Sprinters towed to a popular Colorado Shop with excessive water in fuel. I'll suppose that all three Sprinters were in Colorado when they got contaminated.
Whether the state of the atmosphere Weather played a roll ~ its likely ~ Colorado did have once in a 100yr flood events.

I surmise; if you are traveling through, traverse Land area that has ever flooded; and you do not have the ability to preview fuel; your ill prepared .

In my opinion

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Old 02-11-2016, 03:18 AM   #118
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Default Re: Peas and Carrots

Quote:
Originally Posted by CJPJ View Post
A narrative account of events, experiences, as how three Sprinters got contaiminet fuel would be interesting and informative.

Three Sprinters towed to a popular Colorado Shop with excessive water in fuel. I'll suppose that all three Sprinters were in Colorado when they got contaminated.
Whether the state of the atmosphere Weather played a roll ~ its likely ~ Colorado did have once in a 100yr flood events.

I surmise; if you are traveling through, traverse Land area that has ever flooded; and you do not have the ability to preview fuel; your ill prepared .

In my opinion
Some clarification is needed or there hasn't been enough thoroughly read and digest as it was told to me in my youth in a Grammer school.

Incidence one! A 2010 906 Denver based ambulance towed in from Casper Wyoming filled with 80% water in a gas station.

Incidence 2 ! A Denver based company with a fleet 5 906's a sent one to do a project in Oregon. The vehicle suffered fuel related water contamination in that state --it was towed to us for repair.

Incidence 3! A small small business owner en route from Chicago to Glendale had a power failure climbing the mountains on 1/70. Towed in water in the fuel! Fueled up in Ogallala Nebraska.

New incidence now #4.
Towed in from Albuquerque, a non runner!
Several shops had a go locally and gave up. (One shop has fitted a new turbo with no result) heavens! Water in the fuel. Took out the HP pump and all the injectors were stuck open. So engine compression was being pulsed into the rails! Lady owner said it suddenly went poof and billowed white smoke before it died!

One outside in the yard failed in Haxton Co on 1/70. Just towed in with fuel pressure maladies and a non runner!
Taking bets on the root cause of the problem!
Van, well really RV is from Salina Kansas!

Prompted one of my Mex techs to ask in Spanish what is the definition of RV in Mex chat?
Vacaciones Ruinas!
So none actually failed on Colorado fuel t'was all from outside!

Good for business and the local dealerships have some in their shops too. I also spoke to a shop owner in Glenwood who seems to be wrestling with one over the mountain--Sounds like fuel problems as well--Who knows. Not directly involved with that diagnosis thankfully !

I did have another last week (another RV) in from California who was going east last Saturday in New Mexico and having lost power limped in Denver at 6,00 pm. A call out showed water in fuel indication. Since it has only done 19,600 miles we did a 20K service on it which restored the performance. Since this rig was still l under warranty I shipped it to the dealer for warranty campaign work and doubts on fuel system performance. They (dealer) are still working on it!
Dennis

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Old 02-11-2016, 01:58 PM   #119
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Default Re: Peas and Carrots

Is it possible that the water is coming out of the fuel due to significant elevation changes?
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Old 02-11-2016, 04:49 PM   #120
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I am more inclined to question the storage of fuel in gas stations!
Certainly the Casper and Oregon incidences point to that!
Dennis
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