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Old 01-18-2020, 08:48 PM   #21
john61ct
 
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Default Re: Inteli Power PD9200 Power Converter

Just like alternators and solar panels, the rating is often theoretical.

Long as you factor in the actual output in design and pricing, I don't see that as a major issue.

User-custom setpoint adjustment is pretty rare, also battery temperature sensors/ compensation in that price range.

Not like they're charging the usual $500+ for those features. 
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Old 01-19-2020, 04:13 PM   #22
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Default Re: Inteli Power PD9200 Power Converter

You're showing a lack of knowledge in standards, specifications and test & measurements. The ratings of alternators and solar panels are not theoretical. Far from it. Their ratings are reproducable under specific operating conditions.

I'm not aware for any person who has gotten rated current in bulk mode from their PD converter. This is a design flaw.

It is an issue if you rely on charging battery from the genny. Charge times can take quite a bit longer.

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Just like alternators and solar panels, the rating is often theoretical.

 
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Old 01-21-2020, 12:51 PM   #23
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Default Re: Inteli Power PD9200 Power Converter

Calbiker is correct certainly about the output of the PD9245 as connected and used in our RVs. You will seldom get much more than 8 - 10 amps output to the batteries. Yes, I have measured mine with the Fluke. When I got the first Battle Born LFP I also got a PD9145 ALV charger. I played with it long enough to know it does in fact put out 45amps when charging the Battle Born, measured with the Fluke. It only tapers very slightly as amps delivered drop near 0 and in 30-45 minutes the things are charged and I measure 0 amps output.

The other note about the inadequacy of the PD9245 is that you need the remote pendant to force it into appropriate charge mode if you have solar and you want a genny charge. Indeed the PD9245 is poor in dry camping but the remote pendant did make it feasible but still a long time to recharge. If you want to stay with "traditional" FLA or AGM and dry camp often you need a real charger because the PD9245 is not gonna make you happy. In most of the View rigs you can put a new charger in and use the cable from the inverter - just operate it manually when you run the generator for a simple install. A good charger will not cost much more than a PD9245. Leave the PD9245 in place and turn the breaker off.

Solution: LiFeP04 batteries with a real charger made expressly for that purpose. I operate the PD9145ALV manually when I turn on genny. I turn it off manually and shut down genny. The original PD9245 is in place but is turned off. Less rewire needed.

The other thing to remember is that you can't exceed the internal resistance charge parameter for FLA or AGM. In other words putting in a 300amp charger for those won't do any better than a real 45 - 55 amp charger will in terms of time needed. I have heard more than once that it is better to use the OEM PD9245 to recharge from the genny run than an external charger - wrong - if you have a real external charger. The point is that those folks really must think the PD9245 charges at 45 amps but in reality about a fourth or less of that and then you must manipulate the charge stage with the remote pendant to even get that. The marketing lit from PD is really misleading about the 9245.
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Last edited by billbo; 01-21-2020 at 01:17 PM.
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Old 01-21-2020, 01:33 PM   #24
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Default Re: Inteli Power PD9200 Power Converter

The amount of current actually supplied to a lead bank is not usually determined by the charge source, but limited by the Ah size, CAR of that chemistry and SoC / resistance.

Amps are pulled by the load - in this case the bank, not pushed only offered by the source.

Of course if with LFP - much higher CAR - it tries to pull more than the maximum the source can supply, then the current limiting feature of the source comes into play.

Some sources do this poorly, effectively shutting down charging, or even letting out the magic smoke.

But not decent units sold as chargers.
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Old 01-21-2020, 01:59 PM   #25
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Default Re: Inteli Power PD9200 Power Converter

Yes in part to reply, the amps measured by the Fluke are current flow to the battery. Yes you are wrong - partly. There are two parts in the push/pull thinking. The voltage differential causes charge to flow, not a push or pull of anything. The voltage drop in most installs of the PD9245 in our rigs does play a part. In other words if the PD9245 is charging at some magic voltage of 13.8vdc and you run a small ga wire, say 8ga, to the batteries over 20 ft for a 40 foot or more circuit there is voltage drop. The lower the voltage at the delivery to the battery the less amps will flow into it for charge.

So, the higher voltage of the charger does indeed provide the voltage differential which allows the current to flow or charge the batteries. The Li batteries are not "pulling" anything, the charger is providing high amps at a higher voltage than the Li batteries, the potential difference causes current flow. Since Li batteries have extremely low internal resistance that current flows at full potential until the voltage (potential difference) equalizes. In the case of the Battle Born the BMS is internal and the batteries shut off charging internally.
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Old 01-21-2020, 02:32 PM   #26
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Default Re: Inteli Power PD9200 Power Converter

Obviously voltage drops should be minimized.

My point was wrt to the above complaint that charging lead was at a slower rate, that is not under the control of the charger.

The voltage should not be increased to try to charge faster, it takes 6+ hours to fully charge a deep cycled lead bank,

even going to a source that "makes available" 500A and going to a higher CAR lead chemistry won't save more than a half hour, for the last few hours after ~80% SoC, the rate will drop lower and lower.

With a LFP bank where the BMS is not throttling amps, it will try to **pull** that full 500A, which is why you'd need a charge controller that can derate the current to one healthier for both the bank and the other infrastructure, ideally well under 0.5C unless at very high temperatures.

The current demand will not start to drop much until the last few minutes, after 98+% SoC has been reached, depending on the rate you set.

The charge source should be regulating all this including the charge termination.

Stupid to let any of the BMS protections to kick in, those should be kept as reserve / failsafe use only, not for normal cycling.

If you care about longevity.
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Old 01-23-2020, 07:42 PM   #27
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Default Re: Inteli Power PD9200 Power Converter

Quote:
Originally Posted by john61ct View Post
Obviously voltage drops should be minimized.

My point was wrt to the above complaint that charging lead was at a slower rate, that is not under the control of the charger.

The voltage should not be increased to try to charge faster, it takes 6+ hours to fully charge a deep cycled lead bank
I disagree with that - If you have a'converter' which maxxes out at 13.8 volts, your charge times are always going to be much longer than need be . . . . and if you're charging using a genset, you'll be wasting lots of fuel

Any good smart charger will start off in bulk mode well above 14 volts and a higher voltage does mean more amps supplied to the battery bank. My 55 amp charger will supply 45 amps to my pair of T-105's to start and even after half an hour it will be in the 30 amp range - The current naturally goes down as the batteries charge. If you do get rid of your 'converter' and switch to a smart charger, you will most certainly have to do some rewiring, because RV manufacturers know for sure the converters they put in them are never going to supply their rated current to the batteries, so they always under size the wires they run between the converter and the batteries - If your new smart charger will attempt to push 40 or 50 amps toward the batteries, only a fraction of that will actually make it there and the rest will be lost to heat in the wires

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Old 01-23-2020, 09:04 PM   #28
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Default Re: Inteli Power PD9200 Power Converter

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alphacarina View Post
If you have a'converter' which maxxes out at 13.8 volts
Have you read the thread?

No one here is talking about those horrible old things, anymore than old school garage chargers with no intelligence.

As stated above:
Quote:
Originally Posted by john61ct View Post
There are plenty of modern "converters" that have all the features an quality of top notch chargers, in effect the same and perfectly suitable for even a very pricey deep cycling bank.

The crappy old ones should be ditched of course.
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Old 01-23-2020, 11:43 PM   #29
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Default Re: Inteli Power PD9200 Power Converter

Yes, I'm reading every word. billbo says to charge faster, you should raise the charger output voltage . . . . and you say that should never be done . . . . and I disagreed

Quote:
Originally Posted by billbo View Post
In other words if the PD9245 is charging at some magic voltage of 13.8vdc and you run a small ga wire, say 8ga, to the batteries over 20 ft for a 40 foot or more circuit there is voltage drop. The lower the voltage at the delivery to the battery the less amps will flow into it for charge.

So, the higher voltage of the charger does indeed provide the voltage differential which allows the current to flow or charge the batteries
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Old 01-24-2020, 12:48 AM   #30
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Default Re: Inteli Power PD9200 Power Converter

If you think I suggested AGM should ever be charged at a voltage lower than the mfg spec, I'd like to see that.

Maybe I crossed wires thinking someone was talking LFP?

Or maybe you misunderstood something.

Not that I was plugging this PD charger series specifically, but it does include their Charge Wizard, so its stges will take care of AGMs just fine.

Personally I only use charge sources that enable user-custom setpoints, but that is a very rare feature in low-end gear.
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