Sprinter-Forum    
 

Go Back   Sprinter-Forum > NCV3 Sprinters > NCV3 Database

NCV3 Database Reference Information, Part Numbers, Recalls, TSBs, and etc.


 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 04-18-2015, 04:18 PM   #21
trz453
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 102
Thanks: 34
Thanked 111 Times in 46 Posts
Default Re: NCV3 Oil Practical Information - Low SAP 5w-40 vs 0w-30

Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Crows View Post
At the dealership level.... it is far easier to spin a story about 'protecting the DPF/SCR' that extolling the virtues of 'improved anti-oxidation potential' and 'better MPG.' Protecting $$$$$$ DPF/SCR/EGRs from potential damage resonates with owners. Not to say that isn't important but Sprinter buyers are not oil-geeks and Prii drivers. Truth is at the consumer/dealer levels folks don't know and don't don't want to know the pesky details.....
The problem also is that the MPG benefit per vehicle is usually so small as not to be noticeable by the owner.

The MPG savings are primarily for the manufacturers' benefit. When 0.1mpg and slightly lower emissions improvements get added up cumulatively, then it means that auto manufacturers can save millions of dollars in environmental penalties each year. In the US, there's CAFE which financially penalizes automakers that exceed fleet mpg goals; emissions is also important but there's less emphasis on it, iirc. In most European countries its a bit different, the newer emissions standards measure how many grams of CO2 get produced per km driven, and every. single. gram. over a certain threshold has a penalty tax that ultimately raises the sales price and annual registration tax for each vehicle that gets sold.
trz453 is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to trz453 For This Useful Post:
4wheels (04-28-2015), Aqua Puttana (04-29-2015), Bobnoxious (03-12-2017), smiller (04-18-2015)
Old 04-28-2015, 10:12 PM   #22
Trayscott
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: SOUTHEAST MICHIGAN
Posts: 504
Thanks: 123
Thanked 117 Times in 96 Posts
Default Re: NCV3 Oil Practical Information - Low SAP 5w-40 vs 0w-30

I will be cutting my 0w30 oil changes short until I run out or decide to use the oil in my Suburban that will run just fine on it without all this ridiculous Mercedes crap. Was getting comfortable with my 227000 mile sprinter until recently. Mercedes are what I always thought. Crap. So the Valvoline 5 40 is available at NAPA I understand. Oh and RE the DPF, if it clogs it will be getting cut off and the tune updated.

Bought 48 quarts on sale. Down 26 already
Trayscott is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-29-2015, 12:08 AM   #23
Aqua Puttana
Poly - Thread Finder
 
Aqua Puttana's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: The Falls of Niagara, USA
Posts: 25,681
Thanks: 13,395
Thanked 14,597 Times in 9,271 Posts
Default Re: NCV3 Oil Practical Information - Low SAP 5w-40 vs 0w-30

Some select posts from another OM642 engine discussion. Everyone should feel free to add any other info to this thread as might help.
As always, the original post/thread can be accessed by clicking the blue arrow icon within any quote box. vic
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aqua Puttana View Post
I actually have a statistic for NAS aka NAFTA NCV3 high mileage Sprinter engines.

To date 99+% very high mileage N. American OM642 engines got there on a 5w-40 MB229.51 formulation.

How do I know that? Because finding other viscosity MB229.51 oil on the shelves in N. America is next to impossible.

Maybe there are high mile 0w-30 MB229.51 OM642 EURO engines as they do have some fairly common 0w-30 choices.

As to N. American OM642 engines... why change what works?

Back to topic. (Please take any general oil discussion not related to "blowing up" to one of the many existing oil threads.)

vic
Quote:
Originally Posted by trz453 View Post
From this link it appears that the 229.52 rated Mobil 0w30 is compared to a 5w30 'reference oil' in regards to fuel economy gains, so that would likely rule out the 229.52 oil being just south of the 30/40 line. Here in Germany we have had good synthetic oils that meet BMW Longlife-01/04, but not 229.5/229.51, because the oils must be a 'light' 5W40 or thinner to pass those MB specs. Likewise, there are quite a few 'heavy' 5w30 oils that meet the LL-04 and 229.51 specs, but NOT the VW 504/507 specs. There are simply no 40-weight oils at all in VW 504/507 or in 229.52, because they've been pushed quite deep into 30-weight territory.

With respect to where the engine wear vs fuel economy gain tradeoff limit is, we don't really know. The automakers just keep pushing it and pushing it...going thinner and thinner. With high-revving, low-load gassers its not a problem, but we're not driving gassers, we're driving diesels that plod along at 1500rpm, which requires a LOT of film strength to prevent wear or spun bearings.

How careful was MB in figuring out where the wear/fuel economy limit is? Again, we don't know because MB's goal is not the same as ours. Their goal is to save themselves money by reducing government fines while also not having a notable increase in warranty claims. Our goal is to have engines that run forever with minimal service costs.

MB doesn't want our engines to fail in the first 100k miles when its on their dime, but do they care if it goes pop at 130k? If something goes wrong then, then we pay the price.

Because of this, I am weary about being a guinea pig when the only one to benefit is MB, and because of that, I don't run xW30 in mine. If five years from now there are countless Sprinters that ran exclusively on 0w30 for 20k intervals and made it to 500k+ miles, then I will congratulate MB for a job well done, and tip my hat to them. If not, then I am going to be glad that I was sceptical about MB's claims and took precautions that others didn't.

Regarding oil viscosity in engines, one thing is certain, and that is that its much easier to cause problems erring on the thin side than to err on thick. Thousands of municipalities and corporations in North America have mixed fleets that specify anything from 0w20 for hybrids to 15W40 for diesel pickups, buses and backhoes. Its not what's recommended, but the vast majority of these large fleet operators consolidate their inventory, and just put diesel-rated "mixed fleet" 10w30 (thick 30 weight) or 15W40 in EVERYTHING that needs oil, including snowblowers and lawnmowers.

Its not optimum for something like a Prius to be filled with CJ-4 oil, but it won't make the engine blow up, either. It will still sail through the warranty with a few lost mpg and get sold off at auction when it hits 150k. Try putting Toyota or Mobil AFE 0w20 in a Duramax or a Powerstroke and it WILL go pop prematurely.

Diesels with their soot and high engine loads definitely have a real limit to how thin an oil they can handle, and I don't plan on being the one to find out. Someone else can try it if they want.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Experience View Post
Getting back to the topic. motors that have exploded have had sudden oil pressure loss. Motors have been stripped down at high miles and have had no wear on the crank or shells so its got nothing to do with the oil type. if you have no oil it does not matter what brand it is/was. What we are doing is monitoring the hot idle pressure as away of detecting a pressure loss. We know that the shudder at idle that is nearly always reported just before a big bang is the crank welding itself to the shells because the oil has failed. Why does the oil fail? Please tell me. Eric.
__________________
DAD NAS (N. Amer. Spec) 2004 140 2500 >330,000+ mi. Arctic Whitewash Brush-tone Grey
2006 Freightliner 140 2500HC >183,000+ mi. Arctic Whitewash (Spotted Snow Leopard accents)
"My opinion and worth everything you'll never pay for it." assumed.
Anyone can hold the helm when the sea is calm. Publilius Syrus
"There are only 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't." HaWiiLuVeR
16 ounces of unnecessary prevention can be worth a pound of manure.

Last edited by Aqua Puttana; 04-29-2015 at 02:56 PM.
Aqua Puttana is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Aqua Puttana For This Useful Post:
smiller (10-29-2016)
Old 09-06-2015, 06:57 PM   #24
mofo989
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 497
Thanks: 39
Thanked 107 Times in 74 Posts
Default Re: NCV3 Oil Practical Information - Low SAP 5w-40 vs 0w-30

From the AMSOIL website about using 30 weight vs 40 weight:

This leads to the next topic: many people also ask us if the 0W-30 is too thin a viscosity oil for high ambient temperature operation. The answer is absolutely not! Thicker viscosity oils are not always necessarily better since in addition to its' various engine lubrication functions, an oil must also effectively transfer heat. Only about 60% of an engines cooling is performed by the engine coolant, and only on the upper half of the engine. The remaining 40% of an engines cooling is performed mainly by the engine oil.

Although a vehicle that is recommended to use a 30 weight oil can also use a 40 weight oil, it is usually not needed. You will gain absolutely no benefit from using a thicker viscosity oil if it is not needed. The only time we recommend a 40 weight oil, such as AMSOIL's 10W-40, to a customer in a passenger car or light truck application is if the vehicle's engine is excessively worn and consumes oil at a higher than normal rate or if the vehicle is being used for very severe duty, high load, high temperature applications.
mofo989 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2015, 07:29 PM   #25
smiller
2008 View J (NCV3 3500)
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 4,571
Thanks: 540
Thanked 3,164 Times in 1,896 Posts
Default Re: NCV3 Oil Practical Information - Low SAP 5w-40 vs 0w-30

Quote:
Originally Posted by mofo989 View Post
... You will gain absolutely no benefit from using a thicker viscosity oil if it is not needed ...
Quite true. But the question is what is needed? It's generally correct to say the the lightest oil that will allow the boundary layer to survive under all operating conditions is the best, but what weight is required to prevent oil failure at a given load and temperature within a given engine? I don't know but I assume that MB engineers do, and they recommended 5W-40. I have no idea whether the change in that recommendation came solely from engineering or perhaps with the marketing dept's help, but I think I will stick with what has a known good track record in my particular engine since there's zero downside in doing that.
smiller is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to smiller For This Useful Post:
Aqua Puttana (09-07-2015)
Old 09-07-2015, 02:47 PM   #26
Aqua Puttana
Poly - Thread Finder
 
Aqua Puttana's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: The Falls of Niagara, USA
Posts: 25,681
Thanks: 13,395
Thanked 14,597 Times in 9,271 Posts
Default Re: NCV3 Oil Practical Information - Low SAP 5w-40 vs 0w-30

Quote:
Originally Posted by smiller View Post
Quite true. But the question is what is needed? It's generally correct to say the the lightest oil that will allow the boundary layer to survive under all operating conditions is the best, but what weight is required to prevent oil failure at a given load and temperature within a given engine? I don't know but I assume that MB engineers do, and they recommended 5W-40. I have no idea whether the change in that recommendation came solely from engineering or perhaps with the marketing dept's help, but I think I will stick with what has a known good track record in my particular engine since there's zero downside in doing that.
Good post.

I read the Amsoil information as being aimed at those who want to use heavier viscosity than is recommended by the manufacturer. MB229.51 0w-40 and 5w-40 has been on the BEVO list for the Sprinter right along as has been 0w-30, but the 0w-30 isn't common in North America. MB229.51 still isn't common in North America except for Mobil 1.

One of the main triggers for the 0w-30 vs 5w-40 discussions was that Mobil no longer offers 5w-40. There is no problem with finding MB 229.51 5w-40 in North America. The downside is if you are driven by brand preference (Mobil 1).

Using MB engineering, and maybe less marketing, if you believe in BEVO there is no reason to stop using MB229.51 5w-40 and change to 0w-30.

If you get your oil changed at a MB dealership then you will likely get Mobil 1 0w-30 from the bulk gun. Is that driven by engineering or the convenience of MB using bulk oil and having deals with Mobil (marketing)?

vic

Added:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aqua Puttana View Post
...

The Mobil 1 ESP Formula M 5W-40 MB229.51 product had such dismal sales volume and product acceptance that Mobil quit producing it. The replacement Mobil1 ESP Formula M 5W-30 is a more universal product. The goal was to dump a loser and increase sales volume.

(I have no data for that, but it sounds good. Most manufactures don't stop producing/selling money makers though.)

Gotta love oil threads.

When you believe in BeVo. Your Sprinter life becomes easier.

RobeSprinterCup.jpg

vic
__________________
DAD NAS (N. Amer. Spec) 2004 140 2500 >330,000+ mi. Arctic Whitewash Brush-tone Grey
2006 Freightliner 140 2500HC >183,000+ mi. Arctic Whitewash (Spotted Snow Leopard accents)
"My opinion and worth everything you'll never pay for it." assumed.
Anyone can hold the helm when the sea is calm. Publilius Syrus
"There are only 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't." HaWiiLuVeR
16 ounces of unnecessary prevention can be worth a pound of manure.

Last edited by Aqua Puttana; 03-12-2017 at 04:28 PM.
Aqua Puttana is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2015, 03:25 PM   #27
smiller
2008 View J (NCV3 3500)
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 4,571
Thanks: 540
Thanked 3,164 Times in 1,896 Posts
Default Re: NCV3 Oil Practical Information - Low SAP 5w-40 vs 0w-30

I should note that when I say 'marketing dept' I'm using shorthand for 'any source of influence other than engineering', such as concern for CAFE requirements, desire for standardization, etc. These factors may be relevant to MB but they are not to me, my only interest is the most appropriate oil for my particular operating conditions. And I think one can make a pretty rational case that 0W-30 didn't somehow become a better choice overnight simply as a result of the .52 spec.

.

Last edited by smiller; 09-07-2015 at 04:20 PM.
smiller is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to smiller For This Useful Post:
CJPJ (09-07-2015), sailquik (09-07-2015)
Old 09-07-2015, 04:16 PM   #28
mofo989
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 497
Thanks: 39
Thanked 107 Times in 74 Posts
Default Re: NCV3 Oil Practical Information - Low SAP 5w-40 vs 0w-30

I guess my 2c is that although our vans were designed, spec'd and manufactured at some instant in time based on the ecosystem of supporting products, that ecosystem is constantly changing. The oils available today are superior to when it was designed. Just because the spec originally called for a different product doesn't mean a newer different oil product is not more suitable now.
mofo989 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2015, 04:24 PM   #29
smiller
2008 View J (NCV3 3500)
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 4,571
Thanks: 540
Thanked 3,164 Times in 1,896 Posts
Default Re: NCV3 Oil Practical Information - Low SAP 5w-40 vs 0w-30

Quote:
Originally Posted by mofo989 View Post
Just because the spec originally called for a different product doesn't mean a newer different oil product is not more suitable now.
True. But on the one hand we have a record of virtually zero oil-related failures with the 5W-40 while the long term track record of the 0W-30 in a loaded Sprinter truck is unknown. So I should change why?
smiller is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2015, 04:39 PM   #30
bcislander
'07 Mercedes-badged Dodge
 
bcislander's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Vancouver Island
Posts: 878
Thanks: 164
Thanked 362 Times in 254 Posts
Default Re: NCV3 Oil Practical Information - Low SAP 5w-40 vs 0w-30

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aqua Puttana View Post
snip....

MB229.51 still isn't common in North America except for Mobil 1.

snip....
AFAIK, Valvoline SynPower MST 5w40, VV966, which meets MB229.51 is readily available in NA.
__________________
2007 Mercedes-badged Dodge 2500, GWV Legend RV
bcislander is offline   Reply With Quote

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 04:57 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.