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Old 04-02-2015, 01:37 PM   #1
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Default NCV3 Oil Practical Information - Low SAP 5w-40 vs 0w-30

First.

Thanks goes to TRZ453 for what I feel is really good information to help owners make a decision as to what oil can be used.

As always, the original post/thread can be accessed by clicking on the blue arrow icon within any quote box.

Quote:
Originally Posted by trz453 View Post
Derekelliot already said that he can't source the specified oil in Mexico and he's due for a change. So what's written in the manual is great for when he's back in the US, but it doesn't help for his current situation. Hence him being 'in a pinch' of sorts.

What one is left with, then, is seeing what kind of improvisation can be done. In this case, there's a quality synthetic CJ-4 rated oil available. We know that CJ-4 oils have higher SAPS (sulphur, ash, and phosphorus) levels than 228.51 oils, which in turn has higher levels than 229.51/229.31 oils. We also know that these SAPS additives are good for reducing soot and acid induced engine wear, but are not good for the DPF (diesel particle filter) that catches the soot in the exhaust, hence the reason why they try to make these additives low in the diesel engine oil in the first place.

The question then, is how much worse is it to use a synthetic CJ-4 oil than an MB 228.51/229.51 synthetic oil?

If you read all of the internet forums or if you go ask some dealership service advisor about what happens if you use a synthetic CJ-4 oil in a Sprinter instead of 228.51/229.51/etc, they are going to tell you that its going to have a detrimental effect on DPF life. This is true -- all engine oils contain compounds which will load up a DPF over time, some more than others.

If you ask them "ok, how much worse is it?" then there are either not going to know, or they're going to say "Just don't do it, its really, really bad!" because that's what they heard someone say or write somewhere else.

This information is free, and for good reason, because its hearsay. It is not backed up by actual data about how much the DPF life is shortened compared to using MB spec oils. If it was 80%, then that actually matters, but if its 2%, then its quite insignificant.

If one does a little bit of research about what constitutes CJ-4 oils, then this article from 2007 pops up quite high up on Google searches.

It discusses how much of an effect the SAPS content of oil has on DPF life for heavy duty on-the-road diesel trucks. At the time in 2007, the heavy duty diesel engine industry was making the transition from CI-4 (VERY HIGH SAPS) oils to CJ-4 (mid/low SAPS) oils, and the question was how bad was it for diesel engine operators to use the CI-4 in engines with the DPF.

The result was that real world data from big rig trucks showed that SAPS content had less effect on DPF life than the engineers had originally thought. Yes, the higher the SAPS content, the shorter the DPF life. But it isn't nearly as much as most people assume it is. Here's an interesting part of that article:

Quote:
"I have not seen a single data point where people used CI-4 PLUS in a 2007 on-highway engine that actually failed the EPA requirement for 150,000 miles,” says Chao. “So its no big deal to use CI-4 PLUS oil and meet that limit.” Cummins has said it will allow highway engine customers the flexibility of using CJ-4 with a projected DPF cleanout at 200,000 to 400,000 miles or CI-4 with a DPF cleanout every 150,000 to 350,000 miles.
So there you have it. A DPF is going to last longer on oils that are lower in SAPS additives, but there are factors such as fuel quality, how much oil the engine burns in the first place, and driving conditions that have a greater effect on DPF life. Furthermore, the difference between CI-4 oils vs CJ-4 oils is greater than the difference between synthetic CJ-4 oils and synthetic 228.51/229.51 oils.

Note that I emphasized the importance of using a synthetic CJ-4 oil...I still would not use mineral or part-synthetic oil like Rotella or Delo 15w40/10w30 in a modern MB engine even though they are also CJ-4 rated, due to syns being less volatile and having fewer problems with coking turbos and keeping pistons clean. Synthetic oils are defintely the way to go in MBs. I also believe that when Derekelliot is back in the US, he should go back to using the MB spec oils for future oil changes. But there's no evidence that using Mobil TDT 5w40 is not the right choice for where he is right now.

My main concern would be that in Mexico, the fuel might not be ULSD (ultra low sulphur diesel), which is of course also not good for the life of the DPF. It is stated in the linked article that when one uses fuel that may have higher sulphur content, that one should shorten the oil change interval because the oil gets fouled more quickly with non-ULSD. Hence the recommendation I made to change the oil out for earlier (7500-8500) intervals than what Mercedes specifies.
From another thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by trz453 View Post
229.52 has the same SAPS (sulphur, ash, phosphorus) limits as 229.51.

Lubrizol.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/jSXYwXI.png

Only difference is 229.52 is slightly more resistant to oxidative thickening, and it is made thinner to net a small increase in mpg which people might notice for short trip driving (when the oil is still quite cold) or when driving fully unloaded. For those who do longer trips, mostly highway driving or driving a loaded vehicle then the fuel economy benefits are generally going to be statistically insignificant/not measurable. Mercedes is pushing the fuel-economy thing because they are getting more pressure to increase collective fuel economy and reduce emissions statistics. If they don't, they get fined by various government jurisdictions where MB vehicles are sold.

The drawbacks of a thinner oil with high-temperature-high-shear rating (HTHS) over 3.5 are that while the oil can protect against metal-to-metal wear just as well as a thicker oil due to film strength, the boundary layer of oil that separates the metal from contacting metal is thinner (the metal pieces still don't touch as they move against each other, but they are closer together).

This means that if there is any source of severe contamination in the oil such as larger soot particles or sand, and if these particles are larger than the boundary layer of oil, then the particles can grind at the metal and bearing surfaces, leading to higher rates of wear.

The main thing when using 30-weight oil is to hope that the air intake and filter doesn't develop a leak, that the oil never gets oversaturated with soot (very long oil change intervals may not be such a good idea) and that the oil filter never fails and the oil filter bypass valve doesn't get stuck open.

With a 40-weight oil, there was a greater tolerance for something going wrong with any form of oil contamination. With the 30-weight, this safety-net is reduced. How much? Who knows...but its there, no doubt about it.

Regarding oil used, if you have a choice, I would stick with the Valvoline 5w40 if the vehicle is driven fully loaded to keep that additional 'what if' safety factor of the thicker oil. If 0w30 is used, then I personally would be more reluctant to do oil changes over 10,000 miles, even though MB says the 2014 vehicles allow 14k and the 2015+ allow 20k intervals. YMMV.

In Germany, the vast majority of Sprinters are running 10w40 228.51 approved oils because they are a fraction of the cost of 229.51/31/52 oils, and Sprinters are serviced at commercial garages. So there's no long term real world data on the use of 0w30 oil in Sprinters, unfortunately.
vic

Added from other oil threads:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aqua Puttana View Post
You can support pretty much whatever you want to with internet searches.


Stephen's Service is on the thicker oil is needed end of the spectrum.

http://www.stephensservice.com/bluet...ssuesproblems/


The Blackstone article supports that thinner oil has some advantages.

Attachment 83411


The Stephen's advice might have me concerned if our MB Sprinter engines had many posts indicating similar problems. Because we don't see those posts I tend to discount the information as related to Sprinters. I have no clue as to other MB products.

The Blackstone information would now have me feeling better about using MB229.51 or MB229.52 Xw-30 weight oil in my NCV3 Sprinter. Prior to that article I was leaning toward the previously more common Xw-40 as being a better choice. Now I'd be less concerned.

For typical Sprinter use any and all approved for the service fluids should be equally effective regardless of brand label.

I am not an Amsoil dealer. I didn't even stay at a Holiday Inn Express.

vic
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aqua Puttana View Post
...

Good old Lubrizol for information again. This PDF explains some of the "Why's" of oil formulation.

Attachment 83741

Note that page 7 indicates MB229.3 spec oil uses ACEA base ratings with MB adding additional testing criteria (6 tests for MB229.3). I suspect that applies similarly to other MB specs. ACEA as base, + X additional MB specific parameters.



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Old 04-17-2015, 04:29 AM   #2
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Default Re: NCV3 Oil Practical Information - Low SAP 5w-40 vs 0w-30

Mobil told me 0w30 is fine for my 2008! Hope they are right!
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Old 04-17-2015, 04:46 AM   #3
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Default Re: NCV3 Oil Practical Information - Low SAP 5w-40 vs 0w-30

So using 229.5 vs 229.51 would terminally clog the dpf slightly sooner (25% earlier in highway usage), but would protect the engine better. Its easier to replace a dpf than an engine. This info is useful for the 150hp om646 sprinter 315 timebomb drivers out there.
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Old 04-17-2015, 05:36 AM   #4
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Default Re: NCV3 Oil Practical Information - Low SAP 5w-40 vs 0w-30

If Mercedes is anywhere near using metallurgy that the big three and the rest are it should be fine. They are running 0W20! So the 3.0 Liter v6 is a "Time Bomb". The guy that tuned mine said the block is bullet proof, the rest of the drive train is another story. In Jeeps they are bumping them to 250 horse with no issues. All my gas engines in my trucks called for 5w30 towing, hot or not and no call for synthetic although I have always used Mobil 1. I see little difference between 5 30 and 0W30.
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Old 04-17-2015, 05:50 AM   #5
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Default Re: NCV3 Oil Practical Information - Low SAP 5w-40 vs 0w-30

Read the article and the commentary which is just that. I see little science in this! Opinion, sure and comparing apples to oranges yes! If I could find 229.51 sure I would run it but Mobil 1 is only 229.52 and on sale 6 bucks a quart. Probably will not go 10,000 on a change especially with some summer towing but at that price I can afford it!
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Old 04-17-2015, 03:10 PM   #6
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Default Re: NCV3 Oil Practical Information - Low SAP 5w-40 vs 0w-30

Yes. The comments are opinion, but aren't many posts found on BITOG mostly opinion too?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trayscott View Post
... If I could find 229.51 sure I would run it but Mobil 1 is only 229.52 and on sale 6 bucks a quart. ...
I sounds like you are commited to the MB recommendations. If yes, then why ignore BEVO and limit the choices to Mobil products? BEVO tests/lists a bunch of MB229.51 brands in various viscosity. Some of the oils listed are even available in North America.

Valvoline and Amsoil come to mind for MB229.51 5w-40 viscosity.

vic
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Old 04-17-2015, 04:00 PM   #7
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Default Re: NCV3 Oil Practical Information - Low SAP 5w-40 vs 0w-30

Oh boy! Another oil thread .... With spider charts! ���������� What a way to start the mornin'!

Good job TRZ!!!!

The devil is in the details... The spider chart is really comparing two formulations of 229.51.... 2009 and 2012 vintages....& 229.52 (2012). What I see is incremental improvements in non-DPF/SCR related areas over a three year period in the area of fuel economy and oxidation thickening. The .51/2012 and .52/2012 appear to be identical in wear and superior to .51/2009.

All kind of obvious from the chart. Today's question would be ... Where do they stand against 229.53 5W30 in the same test? I would expect to see increased improvement in oxidation protection and economy based on "internet hearsay" and no degradation in other performance areas.

DANG! Android battery croaked in the middle of my thoughts...!!!

At the dealership level.... it is far easier to spin a story about 'protecting the DPF/SCR' that extolling the virtues of 'improved anti-oxidation potential' and 'better MPG.' Protecting $$$$$$ DPF/SCR/EGRs from potential damage resonates with owners. Not to say that isn't important but Sprinter buyers are not oil-geeks and Prii drivers. Truth is at the consumer/dealer levels folks don't know and don't don't want to know the pesky details.....

As someone stated before, fuel quality is probably much more important. That is one of my opinions. We have such exquisite control over the oil we choose and use and they are made to exacting standards. Diesel fuels? That is the big question mark. Other than sticking with a 'brand' name or particular station (which is not a direct measure of quality) we've got no clue as to the exact specification of that stuff we are putting in the tank other than it's ULSD (we fervently hope); that it has some Cetane value (exactly what we don't know); and, that it's not crapped up with water or other contaminants. Fuels probably make more difference in DPF life than the oil being used.

(AND SOMEONE PLEASE TELL ME) Lots of facts on running good air filters and keeping the induction system dirt and FOD free. Good idea. I understand why lack of filtration can lead to increased wear in the piston rings and cylinders...... I'm not understanding how that 'crud' gets into the oil and lubrication system. Engines are 'closed' systems and do not .... like the ancient engines of the '50s have breather tubes and open crankcase ventilation systems. Help me understand how that happens. (The exception being contamination of the oil due to not being careful filling & checking the oil.)
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Old 04-17-2015, 08:23 PM   #8
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Default Re: NCV3 Oil Practical Information - Low SAP 5w-40 vs 0w-30

Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Crows View Post
...

(AND SOMEONE PLEASE TELL ME) Lots of facts on running good air filters and keeping the induction system dirt and FOD free. Good idea. I understand why lack of filtration can lead to increased wear in the piston rings and cylinders...... I'm not understanding how that 'crud' gets into the oil and lubrication system. Engines are 'closed' systems and do not .... like the ancient engines of the '50s have breather tubes and open crankcase ventilation systems. Help me understand how that happens. (The exception being contamination of the oil due to not being careful filling & checking the oil.)
You kinda answered your own question. Dirty air = crud in the cylinders = increased wear = carry the crud down with blow-by = ugly deteriorating conditions. The dirty combustion air doesn't really get into the crankcase directly.

Just my basic understanding until someone comes up with a more detailed explanation.

Oh. Some good points/questions above by the way.

vic

Added:
I recall reading in some MB literature that the OCI Oil Change Interval needs to be reduced if using other than ULSD Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel. Fuel quality is definitely a factor.
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Old 04-17-2015, 10:51 PM   #9
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Default Re: NCV3 Oil Practical Information - Low SAP 5w-40 vs 0w-30

Contaminants in ring blowby can pollute the oil, that is why EGR-equipped engines turn oil black so fast, or why MB has concerns about biofuels getting into the oil during regens.
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Old 04-17-2015, 11:58 PM   #10
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Default Re: NCV3 Oil Practical Information - Low SAP 5w-40 vs 0w-30

Quote:
Originally Posted by smiller View Post
Contaminants in ring blowby can pollute the oil, that is why EGR-equipped engines turn oil black so fast, or why MB has concerns about biofuels getting into the oil during regens.
Yes, but how does "dirt" from the induction system get into the oil?
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