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Old 05-31-2019, 02:52 AM   #11
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Default Re: Suspension Mounts Superficial Rust (?) MOT FAIL

Man, this would drive me crazy, some technician telling me what's safe and not safe based on.... his opinion. I would power wash it, paint it black, go drive through some dust or mud, and go back when someone else is working.
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Old 05-31-2019, 04:58 AM   #12
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Default Re: Suspension Mounts Superficial Rust (?) MOT FAIL

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Originally Posted by markxengineering View Post
Man, this would drive me crazy, some technician telling me what's safe and not safe based on.... his opinion. I would power wash it, paint it black, go drive through some dust or mud, and go back when someone else is working.
OK enough!!!
I have been an MOT inspector in my earlier career in the UK working for a county.;
Get used to Europe and its regulations!
These road safety regulation which you see universality applied across the Euro zone enhance road safety.
Consequently we very rarely see the incidences of rolling wrecks as you see on US highways. Emphasized by the recent runaway of a semi down down the Denver front range and colliding with a traffic jam on I/70 killing six and setting the surviving occupants on fire causing horrendous injuries.

Inspectors at MOT stations have to go through a training course to become certified and are skilled techs by trade.
"SOME TECHNICIAN" just about sums up the US public's' opinion of people who inspect and repair motor vehicles for a living
This sadly reflects many American's viewpoints we are all low lives in this business .
But in Europe you have something like this:-
.

The MOT test has been around in the UK since 1960 and in this respect Europe is far ahead of the USA in auto safety inspections. We are skilled , trained and certified to do such tasks on the public's vehicles by law
Yes drive Americans crazy and the driving test would do the same.
You would be writing protests to your Congressman about Gov overreach.

Just to emphasize the point my neighbor over the back is Chief of Police.
Conducting a speed and mechanical road side safety violation tests on C470 recently his force and CDOT issued 47 speeding tickets for semi's (75 plus MPH) and safety mechanical prohibitions for 41 loaded trucks in 35 minutes at between 6 and 7 am in the morning.

That's thy the Europeans have safety tests.
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Old 05-31-2019, 09:39 AM   #13
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Default Re: Suspension Mounts Superficial Rust (?) MOT FAIL

I think we're getting off the point the rust on my mounting points and the prescribed areas are totally superficial and it will pass when I wire brush and underseal the areas. They are completely solid.

You can see the sills in one of my photos, which are holed and I am going to have those repaired but on the MOT documents they were only noted as an advisory to be kept an eye on.

As regards safety the UK is severely deficient in many respects although I consider myself lucky to live in such a relatively safe country with largely effective rules which people, often, keep to. But we do need honest competent application and enforcement of the rules and I don't think my MOT man was at all correct?
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Old 05-31-2019, 10:26 AM   #14
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Default Re: Suspension Mounts Superficial Rust (?) MOT FAIL

It looks like some wire brushing for better visual inspection of the areas in the pictures would be a start. If found ok, follow that with a coat of paint. That should address the concerns.

The above said, are you certain that those are the areas in question? My 2004 has a couple frame areas in the front suspension that I have on my watch list. Do a thorough inspection of both front and rear suspension to be certain you are looking where the inspector has his concerns, even though it does say rear on the printout. Maybe the "rear area" of the front suspension??

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Old 05-31-2019, 12:56 PM   #15
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Default Re: Suspension Mounts Superficial Rust (?) MOT FAIL

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Originally Posted by Gwilym View Post
I think we're getting off the point the rust on my mounting points and the prescribed areas are totally superficial and it will pass when I wire brush and underseal the areas. They are completely solid.

You can see the sills in one of my photos, which are holed and I am going to have those repaired but on the MOT documents they were only noted as an advisory to be kept an eye on.

As regards safety the UK is severely deficient in many respects although I consider myself lucky to live in such a relatively safe country with largely effective rules which people, often, keep to. But we do need honest competent application and enforcement of the rules and I don't think my MOT man was at all correct?
My suggestion --As a past MOT inspector.
The areas in question need to be attended to probably by "welding in repair" or replacement sections.
The photos you submitted are so covered in road & rust deposits that it is hard to assess the extent of the condemned corrosion areas.
Hence:-
The areas in question need to be blasted in a media (like a soda medium or coal/coke slag) ) to remove the rust , debris and under-seal., refrain from sand as it will blast it to bits)

With the structural areas exposed, the corrosion damage can be assesses and repair sections installed BY WELDING. If after complete exposure and you feel that the inspector has demonstrated an excess of zeal there is an appeals and easy re-inspection procedure.
BUT you need to clean off the areas in question.

As for the sills, or rocker panels as they are called on this side, your best bet is to cut the out and weld in replacements. They are easily available off the shelf or cut out of a wrecked donor.

DO NOT resort to short cuts like applying filler & such to rust holes & patches, we will fail it!

If you want some local-ish advise or additional help my brother does a lot of this type of work at his shop in Gloucestershire. Often repaired MOT failures vans get fixed and buyers come from West Africa to snap them up. I can refer him to you if necessary.

As a footnote this is what we do in our shop from time to time.
Firstly that MOT test procedure and its training gives you an excellent springboard to inspect pre-purchase Sprinter vans for value and assessed future life expectancy. AND YES
I have condemned vans for corrosion failures at pre-purchase inspection intervals on this side ! But with no MOT type test it often rolls back out on the road.

I do scrap off a few vans for repair sections. If you need a repair section especially for that floor and spring hanger /shackle areas--we have them! Hot knife at the ready! Called a plasma cutter.

I did this type of work for Gloucestershire County Council straight out of College for about 2 to 3 years. Corrosion failures in the UK are not uncommon since the climate and salt conditions are akin to the east coast of the USA.
Of course as cars lined up and the questions arose "well what have we got today the Chief inspector often say well there are two Luton Oxidizers (Vauxhall/Bedfords) out there , plus a couple of Torino (Fiats) oxidizers slated for later this afternoon.
AND
Of course there are tons of funny memories of folk like yourself who suddenly find their find vehicle has reached a corrosion failure point. The financial decision has to be made is it cheaper to fix or scrap.....

Just as a footnote for our American brethren this MOT test applies to everyone including chiefs of police!
I remember failing the Cheltenham Chief Constable's yellow Lotus Cortina no fewer than 3 times for mechanical deficiencies. He was so mad about getting a Red'Un (refusal to test) that I swear his hat covered in white scrambled eggs was about to lift off with steam!
Again the Rules is the Rules.
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Old 05-31-2019, 04:47 PM   #16
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Default Re: Suspension Mounts Superficial Rust (?) MOT FAIL

Off topic, jumbled nonsense to follow.... @dennis, we are going to disagree on this one. I've had many interactions with "some technicians" which leads to my personal view. Recently I failed a safety inspection in Maine for "rusty rotors". I went through the appeal with the state police. With the officer present, they changed their story to "rotors beyond wear limit". Yet they didn't have the proper tool to measure with, it was a visual estimate. I never gave them the key to remove the wheels, and they were unable to show me the manufacturer wear limit they were comparing to. It even took the Audi dealer 15 minutes to locate the info because the year + model had 3 different variations of brakes, all with different limits. The officer got me my sticker and stayed for a meeting with the manager of the Jiffy Lube. I hope enough people challenge their results that it becomes a burden on the state and they cancel the program, but it's highly unlikely, as it's a moneymaker. It has nothing to do with safety, it's a profitable tax for the state. https://www.gao.gov/assets/680/672131.pdf "Studies GAO reviewed and GAO’s analysis of state data examined the effect of inspection programs on crash rates related to vehicle component failure, but showed no clear influence." I will go with this rather than anyone's personal anecdotes.
The "inspection technicians" in Maine need to be 18 years old, have a driver's license, no criminal record, and get at least 70% of the questions correct on a written test which, judging by the intelligence level of these techs, is not very difficult. Which is more likely, that this "inspection technician" will forget to re-tighten my lug nuts, or that he will save lives by discovering something that I haven't already seen myself? I have been an auto technician myself from age 16-21 and think that the stereotypes about the industry are mostly accurate. Every single time I deal with techs, they get visibly offended that I dare to question their expertise, as if what they do is more special or important than any other job, and that I couldn't possibly understand.

Beyond technician issues, the rules are gray areas in the first place. I once bought new aftermarket rotors ($12 on ebay) and found that they had less wear material brand new than the "used" ones that were beyond the specified wear limit. Further research reveals that I can legally manufacture my own brake rotors simply by writing to the NHTSA with my name, signature, address, and a description of the brake rotor I’m manufacturing. If I’m also marketing or selling my rotors, I must “self-certify” that it will not prevent the vehicle from meeting FMVSS 135. Engineering calculations are acceptable, no testing required, and no documentation required unless I am the subject of a NHTSA investigation. Someday I'd like to say that I made my own rotors from the worn out OEM scraps, and give the inspectors my own wear limit.

More recently (currently in progress), a California "technician" has refused to verify my used car because the VIN number has a scratch on it, and he thinks it looks tampered/stolen. To me, it looks like someone scratched while replacing the windshield. Every other VIN on the car is in perfect condition. The VIN in the ECU matches. I showed service records going back to day 1, clean carfax, original window sticker including a bunch of rare options clearly on this car, etc. Bought from a Dealer in Arizona. The only indication that it may be a stolen car is a scratch on the windshield VIN plate. The result of this "technician's" horrible judgement: a>2 month wait for the California Highway Patrol to "inspect" the car. Meanwhile, I have temporary plates, can't sell the car if I want to, and have to defer any maintenance just in case I'm investing in something I can't keep. I can only imagine what's going to happen if their "expert opinion" is also that the car is stolen, or if they make me get a new VIN plate, possibly with a "rebuilt" title. I will waste another day of my life reading the rules, driving to their inspection station, etc, all because of another outdated, poorly run state program and poor training, poor judgement technician.

I hope the UK is different, but I doubt it. Agree to disagree : )
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Old 05-31-2019, 05:14 PM   #17
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Default Re: Suspension Mounts Superficial Rust (?) MOT FAIL

I must admit that your first photo certainly gave me pause (arrow added):

Rusty.jpg

That's a box holding one end of the leaf spring mount.

My first impression was that somebody in the past might have mis-used a frame lift to raise the Sprinter and started the initial damage.

I don't see "supporting evidence" in the bit of frame metal just off to the right, but something was the first bite on that biscuit.

--dick
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Old 05-31-2019, 06:26 PM   #18
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Default Re: Suspension Mounts Superficial Rust (?) MOT FAIL

The UK MOT test is NOT like a USA test.
Watch this to understand what you can fail or not fail!

Guys please try NOT to use any USA tests methods, and common standard practices , or experiences as a benchmark for other countries and how they perform and comply to their own standards.



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Old 06-01-2019, 01:00 PM   #19
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Default Re: Suspension Mounts Superficial Rust (?) MOT FAIL

I belong to a couple of other forums and certainly anecdotally British MOT are not as consistent as Dennis seems to feel they are. People get failed for minors while others get passed and then discover majors. The training may be top notch, but perhaps the certification is not?
Regarding the pictures affixed, I could see an easy fail there, but don’t know how anyone could ascertain what is going on from the pics. I would wire brush that down so I could see what’s what before being able to decide on welding etc, but in my experience with rusty vehicles, most of that looks surface, with the road grime and undercoat peeling off making it look major.
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Old 06-01-2019, 08:16 PM   #20
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Default Re: Suspension Mounts Superficial Rust (?) MOT FAIL

Hence the reason why i stated do a mild blast of the area to remove what is left of the under seal and re-check it.
In any case has to fix the sills--(Rocker panels) which requires clean metal to weld to--You cannot weld rust either surface or otherwise.

If there is an inspection oversight there is a procedure to re-present for further examination in the UK.

As for forums, we should all be aware by now that not all info presented is entirely accurate.
Many present posts that are full of raw emotion especially where vehicles (bent iron) are concerned
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