Sprinter-Forum    
 

Go Back   Sprinter-Forum > NCV3 Sprinters > NCV3 Talk

NCV3 Talk General Discussions related to NCV3 Sprinters.


Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-08-2016, 12:35 PM   #1
Aqua Puttana
Poly - Thread Finder
 
Aqua Puttana's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: The Falls of Niagara, USA
Posts: 24,551
Thanks: 12,523
Thanked 13,769 Times in 8,747 Posts
Default DEF Adblue Diesel Exhaust Fluid 10 Starts

Comments have been made that DEF searches don't reveal much. I have found that when using key words of only 3 letters (eg. acronyms) the advanced search seems to work best.

Anyway. This sticky should help those looking for DEF information.

First my opinion as a parrot of the forum.

Any good quality DEF is fine. Diesel Exhaust Fluid is a standard commodity chemical.

Be very careful not to spill the DEF when filling. DEF is extremely corrosive and loves to eat copper. If unable to neatly clean an area, flush any spills with copious amounts of water. Not all DEF jugs are created equal when it comes to the spout/fill design. Some members like the convenience of the bulk dispensed product found at truck plazas.

Based upon experience, some members recommend not waiting for the DEF level warning light. Apparently the DEF monitor system is finicky and low level can trigger misadventures. DEF does have a shelf life. Those same members feel that it is better to keep topped up than to worry about the fluid aging.

A 1 gallon refill to address the DEF level warning may not be enough. Some good input from Sailquick Roger.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sailquik View Post
Mark Cooperstein,
How much DEF Fluid did you add?
Did you get the low DEF Fluid / Add DEF Fluid notification BEFORE you added the DEF @ Love's?
Did you only put in 1 gallon of DEF, or a 2.5 gallon DEF "KIT"?
One gallon is NOT enough to reset the low DEF warning message. It takes 2 or more gallons to
reset the warning.
There should be some MB Sprinter dealers fairly near where you are.
If you still have the 5 year/100k mile emissions warranty, repairs to the SCR/DEF system should
be covered by the warranty.
Hope this helps,
Roger

A TEMPORARY 10 Starts Fix.
Thanks and a hat tip goes to Dennis Lindenengineering.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lindenengineering View Post
Well Gents you will have this info here & ONLY Here !
(except maybe if you are in the my back workshop by the de-grease tank!)

By a bit of shop experimentation if you want to kill your "no starter in ten", and continue your trip with less worries about getting stranded far from a dealer or lunatic like me
then--read on!

If or When your CEL comes on with a DEF light fault--like a tank heater fault--simply remove the FRONT NOx sensor and let it dangle in the wind but don't disconnect it!


If the missus says it's indecent letting it dangle down then clip it up with a zip tie and carry on & then pester a dealer workshop later at your leisure. As for the threaded hole in the bazooka tube! ,don't worry about it you will hardly hear the whoosh!

In short it confuses the system and it won't lock out nor even put the CEL back on if your clear it!

I tried in for the 6th time on 6 Blurrtecs yesterday and after more than 100 miles of stop staring & mixed highway running --NO LIGHT--No fault!

Being Mr pollution control conformist (unlike my Gloucestershire ancestors who were Non conformist ) you heard this from the elvers alright!.
Dennis

Elvers?, elvers" :-
Look it up as a Gloucestershire delicacy ate with eggs and maybe bacon --some says its an old remedy for vigour & cost a lot less than Viagra!
To avoid crawling under the truck, the NOX sensors may be able to be unplugged as shown in this video.



Photo courtesy JFloFoto.
FrontNOXsensor.jpg

Added:
The years the work-around applies to may be limited.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lindenengineering View Post
In short 2010 thru 2013.
Dennis
I suggest that BlueTec owners review the entire thread.

**************
Back to the original DEF thread starting here:


Some links.

Interesting AdBlue event
http://sprinter-source.com/forum/showthread.php?t=48399

When to add DEF

http://www.sprinter-source.com/forum...ad.php?t=40367

DEF light ON even though reservoir is full
http://sprinter-source.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16560

vic

From a recent thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aqua Puttana View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiserro View Post
...

Regarding the countdown:
I had the same problem twice. If you have a hard stop the [DEF] fluid all goes forward in the tank and somehow out of the reservoir and shows the sensors not wetted. Bam there goes the 10 start countdown. ...


That sounds like another factor to support the theory of keeping the reservoir full and not waiting for the dash warning before filling.

vic
Added:
I ass-u-me'd that all DEF would be created equal. Maybe not...
Some research from SSTraveler.
Apply as you feel appropriate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SSTraveler View Post
I found this explaination researching on the internet, "Independent blenders of DEF can be registered with the API and not meet all the ISO 22241 standards for testing every batch and therefore some batches are not meeting the very strict ISO 22241 standards.

This can happen for a number of reasons, but primarily due to the type and purity of urea is not the Pharmaceutical Grade Urea but rather the Agricultural Grade Urea which contains impurities like aldehydes and excessive levels of biuret in relation to the ISO 22241 standards which are poisonous to the SCR systems. The other area that will cause critical failures for the manufacturing of DEF is the water purity. De-Ionized water is critical to the manufacturing of DEF. The slightest amount of metals/contaminants found in the water will cause the fluid to not meet the ISO 22241 specification and these elements will be poisonous to the SCR system. Elements like: Calcium, Zinc, Magnesium, Iron, Chromium, Nickel, Sodium and Potassium. All are found in varying quantities/concentrations in typical tap water."

The containers of Walmart DEF, in my area, are labeled API certified but are not labeled "DEF ISO 22241." ISO defines a strict level of quality and purity going into the manufacturing of the DEF. If Walmart's doesn't include the compliance with ISO standard on its labeling then you get DEF but possible not high quality/purity manufactured DEF. I don't want to take this risk to save a couple of bucks. It's just one more thing to worry about and expensive to repair! Walmart DEF falls into the "Buyer Beware" category, use may come with some risk.
Added 20171125
Some Insight about repairs to the SCR Selective Catalytic Reduction aka DEF System.
Thanks goes to all contributors and of course Lindenengineering Dennis.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cdm8108 View Post
Last week I added two bottles of Def to the tank and the next day I got the countdown message. Made it through the week until I could get it in for service. The countdown actually reset one day while I was driving back to 16 starts. I had it in for service today for a fuel filter and to check the Def system. I was hoping for a resolution but ended up with a $7600 quote for stuff that doesn't need to be done. I left with fewer starts then I got there with and no hope. I'm still not sure what caused the countdown to start as there is still fluid in the tank. They said a hose was pinched which was not the case as I checked it myself by lowering the tank a bit. What I'm wondering is if the problem is resolved with the system reset itself and will the countdown go away? The CEL is also on for nox codes. Is the Def system at related to cel? Or are they separate issues.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cdm8108 View Post
Last week I added two bottles of Def to the tank and the next day I got the countdown message. Made it through the week until I could get it in for service. The countdown actually reset one day while I was driving back to 16 starts. I had it in for service today for a fuel filter and to check the Def system. I was hoping for a resolution but ended up with a $7600 quote for stuff that doesn't need to be done. I left with fewer starts then I got there with and no hope. I'm still not sure what caused the countdown to start as there is still fluid in the tank. They said a hose was pinched which was not the case as I checked it myself by lowering the tank a bit. What I'm wondering is if the problem is resolved with the system reset itself and will the countdown go away? The CEL is also on for nox codes. Is the Def system at related to cel? Or are they separate issues.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lindenengineering View Post
I feel to compelled to comment on these two post experiences.

Let me first state that you CANNOT even as an enthusiastic DIY'r fix this system properly unless you have access to factory style scanners and abilities to down load programs called SCN coding!

Yes there are some things you can fix but overall MB has locked you out of it; even shops who fix this stuff for a living can't access it either unless they have the factory tool access and --yes SCN coding downloads !

As an overview the whole system needs to be seen & treated as a complete system which has many functions.
Yes DEF levels and the heater unit, you can replace yourself.
BUT
Unless you have a suitable scanner you cannot do function tests on the DEF supply system.
Your best best if you suspect the fluid is to change it, because it too will affect the way the system, works if the concentration is incorrect!

Is this important? --well yes!
If you have the system apparently back up and running you need to see if it will develop 5000 HPa of delivery pressure--and that it will run down to a reserve or ready line pressure.
Having assured yourself it's running as it should the next step is the check delivery pressure at the dosing nozzle and spray distribution pattern.
Yes you can replace the DEF injector as a DIY operation.

Testing it is another matter
That entails setting the system with again a FACTORY style scanner in injection qty test procedures, collecting the resultant and measuring the DEF liquid dispensed with a burette.
You need 80 millitres minimum over the prescribed test.

Now as to the exhaust SCR Cat--the hard parts. The bazooka tube!
Yes an easy DIY job just a fiddle to remove and replace.

Again after you have done, what about the differential pressure sensor, what's it reading?
Does it need an updated sensors or socket modification kit?
Dealer visit?

With all that in hand its only left to concentrate on the NOx sensors themselves --Now on their 5th iteration. the latest ones are NGK's not Bosch!
Yes you can DIY install them but they will be needing a factory SCN encode adaption which is the problem you will encounter with this particular DIY practice. You will need to approach a dealer for the adaptation., Cost is about $150 .

Now with all that down your last task is to do health check with scanner and make sure the NOX reduction is at least 70%.
Of Course fail to do this and make sure you get full adaption and monitor drive cycle closure will put the light on between 80- to 220 miles and you will be back to square one most likely about to scream in frustration at the attempts to DIY fix it!
Hope this helps with an overview of understanding.
Dennis
As always clicking on the blue arrow icon within any quote box will take you to the original post/thread. There is further discussion found there as to the reliability of various suppliers.
__________________
DAD NAS (N. Amer. Spec) 2004 140 2500 >330,000+ mi. Arctic Whitewash Brush-tone Grey
2006 Freightliner 140 2500HC >183,000+ mi. Arctic Whitewash (Spotted Snow Leopard accents)
"My opinion and worth everything you'll never pay for it." assumed.
Anyone can hold the helm when the sea is calm. Publilius Syrus
"There are only 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't." HaWiiLuVeR
16 ounces of unnecessary prevention can be worth a pound of manure.

Last edited by Aqua Puttana; 02-09-2019 at 07:32 PM.
Aqua Puttana is offline  
The Following 7 Users Say Thank You to Aqua Puttana For This Useful Post:
Bobnoxious (11-11-2016), hein (01-04-2017), KentuckyWR (11-16-2016), lazylnm (07-13-2019), SD26 (06-01-2019), SprintSprint (09-06-2019), woodywesty (04-10-2017)
Old 11-09-2016, 07:39 PM   #2
irvingj
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Etna, NH
Posts: 998
Thanks: 808
Thanked 410 Times in 289 Posts
Default Re: DEF Adblue Diesel Exhaust Fluid 10 Starts

Thanks, Aqua. Dealership looked at mine today, update on "Interesting AdBlue" thread.
irvingj is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to irvingj For This Useful Post:
Aqua Puttana (11-09-2016), Bobnoxious (11-11-2016)
Old 01-04-2017, 01:50 AM   #3
just4grins
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Colorado
Posts: 45
Thanks: 10
Thanked 26 Times in 10 Posts
Default Re: DEF Adblue Diesel Exhaust Fluid 10 Starts

Here's my point of view for what it's worth. If you follow MB's recommendations and rely on the low DEF indicator you can have problems. Why? Because DEF is corrosive if it dries out on a sensor that now has air reaching it a corrosive environment can be created. The DEF can crust up on the sensor and start to corrode it. The safest thing to do is to always have the sensor submerged so it can't corrode. I top off my DEF every three or four tanks of fuel and it keeps the sensor under the DEF.
I look at it as preventive maintenance.
just4grins is offline  
The Following 12 Users Say Thank You to just4grins For This Useful Post:
Bobnoxious (04-26-2017), Enduro Rider (08-01-2019), FourWheelers1987 (03-02-2017), hein (01-04-2017), JFM (03-16-2017), jlsteede (02-25-2018), jtheiny (02-09-2017), Mein Sprinter (01-04-2017), NevadaBlue (01-21-2017), Ovrlnd_Trvlr (01-04-2017), ptgman (11-16-2017), woodywesty (04-10-2017)
Old 01-20-2017, 11:15 PM   #4
Keeft
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Sterling, MA
Posts: 33
Thanks: 33
Thanked 10 Times in 7 Posts
Default Re: DEF Adblue Diesel Exhaust Fluid 10 Starts

I always wait till the van shows DEF level at just under 50% the add a 2.5 gallon jug from Walmart or Autozone for under $12. Never any issues.
Keeft is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to Keeft For This Useful Post:
NevadaBlue (01-21-2017)
Old 01-21-2017, 05:10 PM   #5
Boxster1971
2012 Sprinter 3500 Ext
 
Boxster1971's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Laurel, MD
Posts: 1,823
Thanks: 686
Thanked 834 Times in 578 Posts
Default Re: DEF Adblue Diesel Exhaust Fluid 10 Starts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keeft View Post
I always wait till the van shows DEF level at just under 50% the add a 2.5 gallon jug from Walmart or Autozone for under $12. Never any issues.
How do you know when the DEF level is just below 50%? From looking at the 2016 Owners manual the current Sprinters only have the same indications of DEF level as my 2012. Basically you get a warning when the DEF level is less than 1.5 gallons. That is well below the 50% level.

I have my DEF filled at each oil/filter change, then add a 2.5 gallon container 5,000 mile after the service. After 80,000 miles I've never had a DEF warning.
__________________
-- Mike
2012 Sprinter 3500 EXT Airstream Interstate
Boxster1971 is offline  
Old 01-21-2017, 08:03 PM   #6
K-9 SPRINTER
 
K-9 SPRINTER's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: L.I. , NY
Posts: 2,648
Thanks: 1,030
Thanked 1,397 Times in 847 Posts
Default Re: DEF Adblue Diesel Exhaust Fluid 10 Starts

Im lucky enough to have the larger tank, mine is , 2010, Ive only had 1 major problem, ( the heater failed due to bad programming.. ( recall ) other then that I get about 8500 miles between warnings. I put in a 2.5 gal of blue def , it does take a few starts before the computer clears the code, but never a problem. Ive always got my Def at Walmart ( Blue Def) @ $11.99) They do have another brand for $9.99
__________________
2010 170ext 3500,
(list of factory options http://sprinter-source.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11018 )
Conversion by Sportsmobile(Texas) to a RV/kennel ... Full Kitchen, 50 gal fresh/25 black/25 gray ,15000 btu 110 AC, 32000/BTU rear AC w/engine driven compressor, maxx air vent, D4 espar, marine toilet, shower, 5-8D batteries, Powertec generator, solar panels, in motion satellite tv, side/front/rear cam system, running boards, custom outside led lights,
Alcoa wheels

K-9 SPRINTER is offline  
Old 02-09-2017, 12:22 PM   #7
brianszero
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: new jersey
Posts: 72
Thanks: 3
Thanked 44 Times in 31 Posts
Default Re: DEF Adblue Diesel Exhaust Fluid 10 Starts

2016 Has DEF level indicator in the lcd display. you just have to toggle through.
brianszero is offline  
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to brianszero For This Useful Post:
Aqua Puttana (03-16-2017), Ek_K24 (05-10-2017), Enduro Rider (08-01-2019), JFM (03-16-2017)
Old 06-05-2017, 01:57 AM   #8
Bobnoxious
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Noxville, Noxious
Posts: 14,539
Thanks: 8,150
Thanked 5,011 Times in 3,591 Posts
Default Re: DEF Adblue Diesel Exhaust Fluid 10 Starts

Here is a cut and paste from a MB Service Information pub.

"SI14.40-D-0024DJ
Service Information: Replace SCR components
14.8.13 (Date)
MODEL 906 with ENGINE 642, 651
We hereby ask you to please remember that for vehicles equipped with the SCR Generation 2 system, when one of the following components is replaced the values in the AdBlueŽ control unit have to be parameterized using STAR DIAGNOSIS and Xentry Diagnostics:
AdBlueŽ container
AdBlueŽ injection nozzle AdBlueŽ metering control unit
AdBlueŽ delivery module AdBlueŽ wiring harness Engine control unit."


I would infer that many Service Departments, as a result of lack of training, were not "Teaching-In" the new components and subsequently could not reset fault codes that necessitated the publication of the Service Information.
Bobnoxious is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to Bobnoxious For This Useful Post:
Nightpanda (08-29-2017)
Old 08-18-2017, 02:57 PM   #9
vnvet
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 157
Thanks: 4
Thanked 68 Times in 41 Posts
Default Re: DEF Adblue Diesel Exhaust Fluid 10 Starts

The death of DEF system.

Right after my oil change and warm up, the CHK/DEF displayed. Not ever having it display in the ten months and 18,000 miles I've owned it was quite a surprise. The most I ever put in it at any one time to "keep it topped off" was a little over a gallon in 3,000 miles. Of the five gallons I purchased, I had half jug left (1.25G) and put it in thinking that's should do it. Nope.

Went and got another jug (2.5) and put it in. Light still on. Went and got yet another jug. Each and every time I would fill it, the fluid would come up to the cap causing me to think it was full. As I looked at the fill tube closer from above, I then crawled under to examine it and it is apparent that the tube doesn't go straight downward to the tank.
So I moved the van to an steeper incline on the driveway ass down and added one more gallon of the second jug without any gurgling and false indicating it was full by fluid not going all the way into the tank like a fuel filling tube does. Of the second jug, I got about 1/2 of it in or, one gallon. All & all, I added four gallons to the five gallon tank.

OK. Finally full. Needless to say, I was very surprised that there was NO warning I was that low on DEF. And of course, I had other four letter expletive thoughts about MB design to fail engineering.

Drove to work and back and a couple other errands roughly 90+ miles and several starts. CHK/DEF still on so called the dealership and asked WTF ? Serv.Mgr. asked how many miles drove after fluid adding. I told him. He said I needed to drive 100 miles and it would reset. OK....

Next day drove to work another 30+ miles with a another four start/stops on the way. Parked it, light still on. Called dealership again and said it is still on. He asked if I drove it 100 miles without stopping. NO ! He said "you need to do that." I replied, you never said 100 non-stop miles. He replied, oops, my bad, I thought I told you that.... Great.. So I figured I'll leave work early and hit the freeway for the 100.

After that conversation a few minutes later I got back in to park in another location closer to unloading zone. Key on, TEN STARTS.. WTF ? I called him back and told him. He said, oh man, you better get it in here ASAP. Got it in that afternoon and they scoped it.

45 mins. later he comes back and says, "your van is really angry"... Oh really ?
Twelve codes, entire SCR system is dead and maybe the CAT also but won't know without replacing all the other parts. $5,299.29 PLUS another $1,700.00 if the CAT is fried...

The only reason I'm providing this is a warning what one could expect should one have the misfortune of their "DEF tank level sensor" malfunctioning as I was told mine did, among other "possible early warning" failures associated with the electrical components of the SCR system needed in order to provide critical data of the system monitoring status.

Prior to me owing the van, it was a fleet rig driven daily 300 freeway miles round trip by a transport company. I have 3-1/2 pages of owner/dealer maint. records of MB scheduled maintenance in the 3 years and 200K miles it was previously owned showing SCR parts replaced and other repairs.

I figured, all the crap that could go wrong and went wrong had been taken care of and I should not have to deal with those for some time.

NOT!
__________________
2013 3500 170 HT DWD CARGO 266K
2005 3500 5.9 CRD Ram Laramie 400k
1995 2500 Suburban 6.5 TD 470k
https://www.amsoil.com/
vnvet is offline  
Old 08-18-2017, 10:58 PM   #10
Bobnoxious
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Noxville, Noxious
Posts: 14,539
Thanks: 8,150
Thanked 5,011 Times in 3,591 Posts
Default Re: DEF Adblue Diesel Exhaust Fluid 10 Starts

How many miles? Sadly, I believe your vehicle is at or nearing the end of it designed service life. Only you can determine the best course of action. If I were confronted with similar circumstances, I would take it to a shop specializing in German cars and employing Mercedes-Benz diagnostic instruments for a second opinion. If the tech has a German accent even better. A competent technician with the proper instruments should be able to isolate and diagnose the issues.
Bobnoxious is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 10:52 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.