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Old 01-10-2019, 03:27 AM   #1
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Default Warranty dispute NOx sensors? 2012

I have 2012 sprinter that is still within the 7 year 70,000 miles or was when I brought into the dealer 2 weeks ago. The warranty for the 2012 long term California Emissions which Washington state where the van was purchased and is is part of says this

For 7 years or 70,000 miles,
whichever first occurs:
1. Where a warrantable condition exists on a long-term emission-related part, the vehicle warrantor will repair your vehicle at no cost to you including diagnosis, parts and labor. This is your LONG-TERM EMISSION CONTROL SYSTEM DEFECTS WARRANTY.

On the 2013 and the 2011 warranty it lists all the parts including the NOx sensors.

Well needless to say the dealership did not cover the nox sensor under warranty and I took all the way to corporate to review. I am frustrated and confused by the vagueness in my warranty and the specifics in the 2013 and 2011 warranties. Should I take the dealership to small claims court?
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Old 01-10-2019, 03:40 AM   #2
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Default Re: Warranty dispute NOx sensors? 2012

To reiterate :-
Best of luck with that!
At the mere delivery of a writ it will go into the hands of an MB attorney and the case will move to County Court and you will have to retain an attorney for yourself at your cost.
It might end up in mediation but MB attorneys have a habit of sitting on their hands and dragging the whole affair out.

Suggest before you leap into the fray read excerpts of Jarndyce versus Jarndyce in Bleak House (1852) by Charles Dickens. Good humanist experience in the Law and Anglo Saxon Tort then, as it is today!
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Old 01-10-2019, 04:34 AM   #3
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Default Re: Warranty dispute NOx sensors? 2012

I have a 2013 that just had the NOX and SCR replaced under the CA warranty, though I was in California at the time. It took MB almost a month to refund me, so I feel your pain.

Are you saying that the extended warranty doesn’t exist for 2012? That seems very strange. And when I go to the mbvans.usa sight and click on 2012, it sends me to the 2011 booklet. Tried three times...

https://assets.mbvans.com/Mercedes-B...411.1547094746


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Old 01-10-2019, 01:19 PM   #4
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Default Re: Warranty dispute NOx sensors? 2012

I will take the other side of small claims. If your claim meets the parameters and you feel right.......go for it. But show up with the documentation and be organized and precise.
In most locations they can NOT move the case up in the courts.
MB can NOT sent a high priced attorney to small claims. If they decide to show up they will send the “factory service rep.”

By the way if you read the forum.........your not the first to claim inconsistency in warranty administration. There are dozens of threads on the topic several with small claims actions..........with very positive results for the owner.
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Old 01-10-2019, 01:45 PM   #5
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Default Re: Warranty dispute NOx sensors? 2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by showkey View Post
I will take the other side of small claims. If your claim meets the parameters and you feel right.......go for it. But show up with the documentation and be organized and precise.
In most locations they can NOT move the case up in the courts.
MB can NOT sent a high priced attorney to small claims. If they decide to show up they will send the “factory service rep.”

By the way if you read the forum.........your not the first to claim inconsistency in warranty administration. There are dozens of threads on the topic several with small claims actions..........with very positive results for the owner.
Having been involved in two acts of litigation as plaintiffs attorney (technical support witness) I have to state that my experiences show the reverse of what you state Mr Showkey. MB USA has a tried and proven attorney postures in place . Few outcomes are positive even on this forum.

Mr Heald if having read Jarndyce versus Jarndyce, I would seriously suggest you consult an attorney FAMILIAR with warranty clauses and breaches of contract preferably engaged in the motor vehicle business before jumping into that affray.
It will cost you about $250
Prudence errs an the side of caution!

None of us are attorneys at law on this forum or at least none has revealed that fact.
Best advise from someone with litigation EXPERIENCE WITH MB USA attorneys !
Proceed with caution .
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Old 01-10-2019, 02:21 PM   #6
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Default Re: Warranty dispute NOx sensors? 2012

In the US, warranty issues are covered under Magnuson–Moss. Although this is no panacea, it is a very consumer-friendly law, and is largely aimed at the kinds of issues seen in the automotive industry. Most importantly, the law provides for recovery of legal fees if you win. This means that there is a small army of spec lawyers who will represent you for free, if you have a good case. You should start by calling one of them. If they hang up the phone, it probably means that the result will be as Dennis predicts. But they may well not hang up. I have had personal experience with this, and the outcome was excellent.

There is no doubt that the Mercedes lawyers will chew you up if you attempt to represent yourself in a regular court. But, I agree with Showkey that it is not so easy in most constituencies to get an eligible claim moved out of Small Claims. The realities of the legal world are grim, but hardly Dickensian. In this case the law is very much in your favor. Your rights are worthless unless you assert them.
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Old 01-11-2019, 01:48 PM   #7
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Default Re: Warranty dispute NOx sensors? 2012

Public opinion ( jury) and the courts ( judge) are not kind to the big corporate identities when they come up against the “little guy.”

Spent years in the legal system at a manufacture. First those ( local) attorneys hired to defend a Lemon law or warranty case are not hourly corporate employees. They are high priced hired guns that may run $250- $700 per hour ( more in a high profile injury case). So defending a warranty case worth $2000 Gets the economics test very early and often in the corporate evaluation. They ( corporate) put up a few walls and hoops........but settlement is ALWAYS the goal. Make it go away and stop spending money on outside council on case with very low exposure.......those other thread on the forum bare that out if your willing to do your home work.

I do find it amazing that inconsistency in warranty is so common on the forum. Corporate customer service usually really try to get consistent application.

There cases where corporate will fight for technical or image or presidents. Emissions especially diesel is not fit any of those reasons, especially in today’s climate. Not too mention NOX, EGR, DEF and DPF have a terrible track record and reputation. That in self attracts the “class action” litigation which gets expensive at multiple millions. Inconsistent warranty admin is a loser in the class action area for the manufacturers.

Op case if you thinking your van has the extended emissions warranty because it was originally sold in California and now it’s titled in a “non extended” area that technicality maybe a slam dunk for the manufacturer. You will lose on the technical merits and the “small guy” against the Corp giant will never play.
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Old 01-11-2019, 03:40 PM   #8
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Default Re: Warranty dispute NOx sensors? 2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by heald View Post
I have 2012 sprinter that is still within the 7 year 70,000 miles or was when I brought into the dealer 2 weeks ago. The warranty for the 2012 long term California Emissions which Washington state where the van was purchased and is is part of says this
[...]
Well needless to say the dealership did not cover the nox sensor under warranty and I took all the way to corporate to review. I am frustrated and confused by the vagueness in my warranty and the specifics in the 2013 and 2011 warranties. Should I take the dealership to small claims court?
Trying to be exact, not pedantic; I am not a lawyer and I try to avoid legal battles as much as possible as the outcomes are generally uncertain. Please forgive me if you already know this and were just using shorthand when you said "take the dealership to small claims court." It is my understanding that the warranty for MB vehicles in the USA is the responsibility of the entity known as "Mercedes Benz USA", not the dealership. Dealerships are (generally) separate legal entities from the vehicle manufacturers.

Perhaps others with more specific knowledge could jump in here, but I think you should be taking MB USA to small claims court, not the dealership, and then only after communicating with MB USA about your needs. You mentioned "corporate review" but it wasn't clear to me whether that was review at the dealership or by MB USA. Before taking any legal action, I would request in writing a copy of your vehicle warranty from MB USA (by model year and VIN) even if you think you already have one so that you have in hand a legally traceable document; I believe that they would honor such a request. They have warranty information on-line for recent years (2016-2018) at https://www.mbvans.com/sprinter/merc...rotection-plan. They don't keep all years on-line perhaps, but certainly have copies at the office.

My information about who warrants the vehicle comes from my 2017 MB Sprinter Warranty, which explicitly says:

"The following terms are referred to in this booklet as:
Vehicle Distributor / Vehicle Warrantor / Parts Distributor
Mercedes-Benz USA, LLC 303 Perimeter Center North Atlanta, GA 30346"

The 2017 MB Sprinter Warranty goes on to say that:
"ANY AUTHORIZED VAN DEALER: Any authorized Van Dealer of the owner’s choice will perform warranty repairs or replacements. The vehicle should be delivered to an authorized Van Dealer during normal service hours. A reasonable time should be allowed after taking the vehicle to an authorized Van Dealer for performance of the repair."

So "authorized van dealers" can perform warranty repairs/replacements (and get reimbursed directly by MB USA), but the authorized van dealer is not the vehicle warrantor, MB USA is. When the authorized van dealer performs warranty work, the costs are covered by MB USA, not the dealer. I expect that the dealer is careful about what work they perform under warranty, as they will not be reimbursed by MB USA if they do work that MB USA doesn't cover under warranty.

I think it's possible that some of the varied outcomes from people seeking legal action may result from how the claim was made. If a dealership that is NOT responsible for a warranty is sued, the court may determine that the dealership is not responsible. This wouldn't mean that someone (like MB USA) isn't responsible, just that the dealership isn't. My understanding is that courts generally rule only on the issues at hand, and usually don't provide any guidance as to what should have been done to get the best results.

My interest in your experience is related to the fact that my 2017 has its 4th Check Engine Light illumination for the DPF system with about 12k miles on the odometer. The differential pressure sensor has been replaced twice (so I'm on the 3rd sensor). Either the quality of the sensors is low, or else there is something else wrong with the system that is being blamed on bad sensors but is more obscure. The codes that were present indicate that the performance of the system is questionable; it was suggested to me by one dealer that I wasn't driving the vehicle for long enough durations. However, three of the four times the light has illuminated I was in the middle of 60-75 MPH highway journeys over hundreds/thousands of miles, so the DPF regens had optimal conditions and performance should not have been a problem.

I'm getting ready to request a more thorough examination of the vehicle systems than the dealerships (I have been to two of them in my area) seem willing to do on their own. I'm going to contact MB USA first to see their perspective on the matter since ultimately they are on the hook.
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Old 01-11-2019, 04:04 PM   #9
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Default Re: Warranty dispute NOx sensors? 2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by elemental View Post
Trying to be exact, not pedantic; I am not a lawyer and I try to avoid legal battles as much as possible as the outcomes are generally uncertain. Please forgive me if you already know this and were just using shorth

My interest in your experience is related to the fact that my 2017 has its 4th Check Engine Light illumination for the DPF system with about 12k miles on the odometer. The differential pressure sensor has been replaced twice (so I'm on the 3rd sensor). Either the quality of the sensors is low, or else there is something else wrong with the system that is being blamed on bad sensors but is more obscure. The codes that were present indicate that the performance of the system is questionable; it was suggested to me by one dealer that I wasn't driving the vehicle for long enough durations. However, three of the four times the light has illuminated I was in the middle of 60-75 MPH highway journeys over hundreds/thousands of miles, so the DPF regens had optimal conditions and performance should not have been a problem.

I'm getting ready to request a more thorough examination of the vehicle systems than the dealerships (I have been to two of them in my area) seem willing to do on their own. I'm going to contact MB USA first to see their perspective on the matter since ultimately they are on the hook.
The whole post as Very good info:
Your second to last paragraph alone...........in many states qualifies for Lemon law, mediation, buyback etc. multiple repairs, documented, low mileage, under warranty, newer vehilce.
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Old 01-11-2019, 04:38 PM   #10
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Default Re: Warranty dispute NOx sensors? 2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by heald View Post
I have 2012 sprinter that is still within the 7 year 70,000 miles or was when I brought into the dealer 2 weeks ago. The warranty for the 2012 long term California Emissions which Washington state where the van was purchased and is is part of says this

For 7 years or 70,000 miles,
whichever first occurs:
1. Where a warrantable condition exists on a long-term emission-related part, the vehicle warrantor will repair your vehicle at no cost to you including diagnosis, parts and labor. This is your LONG-TERM EMISSION CONTROL SYSTEM DEFECTS WARRANTY.

On the 2013 and the 2011 warranty it lists all the parts including the NOx sensors.

Well needless to say the dealership did not cover the nox sensor under warranty and I took all the way to corporate to review. I am frustrated and confused by the vagueness in my warranty and the specifics in the 2013 and 2011 warranties. Should I take the dealership to small claims court?
How much, exactly, are we talking about here? Couple hundred for parts and a sure fix vs. thousands of $$ and hours spent on litigation/mediation with absolutely uncertain outcomes?

Suggesting that one has to know you adversary's order of battle and carefully choose the terrain on which you wish to fight. IMHO, you are not on "good ground" and lack the resources, tactical & strategic advantages to win your case despite being on the side of the angels. It will be a battle of attrition. The 1000 pound gorilla almost always wins.....

Dennis references Jarndice at. al. & Dickens as a teaching point. Good reference but I'd say you may wish to consider the lessons of the Battle of the Greasy Grass or, maybe, Dien Bien Phu .....

Some days it is better to slink silently away and count one's blessings....

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