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Old 01-09-2017, 09:00 AM   #1
Eric Experience
 
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Default Update on 315 exploding engines.

A few months ago I asked for someone to let me have a 315 engine that was over 200K but still running. Thanks to Sockeye I now have a 315 with a very sick engine but still running. I hope to use this to figure out a fix for the problem. This will be a real challenge as this engine has 0 oil pressure when hot. Now the challenge is decide what to do first. The options are to just fit a new oil pump, or just replace the bearings, or fit a larger pump. The vehicle has other problems that need fixing first to make it more drive-able for a comparison. Any ideas? Eric
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Old 01-09-2017, 01:15 PM   #2
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Default Re: Update on 315 exploding engines.

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... Any ideas? Eric
Since you ask...

The easy course would be to just install the different oil pump and see how it responds.

The more labour intensive course would be to disassemble the engine for inspection, inspect the internal parts, and assuming nothing is found in terrible condition, re-assemble with the same parts adding the different oil pump.

My second suggestion should give a better idea whether the different oil pump is actually a solution or a band aid fix. If it is truly a solution that should give others more confidence to just upgrade the pump.

Just my opinion.

vic
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Old 01-09-2017, 02:39 PM   #3
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Default Re: Update on 315 exploding engines.

I don't know if this is helpful or not Eric, but here goes.

Many years back I built a Holden red motor from scratch. Re-bore, new pistons, rings, main journal and big end bearings and to top it off a new oil pump. Fortunately, when I finally started the motor I had an oil pressure gauge installed and it read zero. I could not understand why there was no pressure and soon the frustration led me to ask for help.

I asked a retired mechanic to have a look and he found the problem almost immediately. He sat in the car with the doors and windows closed and slowly increased and decreased the revs. Immediately a rumble was felt/ heard and he told me I had undersize slippers on the main bearings. I did not believe him at first, but on disassembly I found he was right. We used a type of clay like gauging material ( the name escapes me) and found the main bearings were undersize.

It is possible that if the old engines have excessive wear on the main bearings there is the pressure problem. Big end play produces a definitive knock but mains are much more subtle.
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Old 01-09-2017, 03:25 PM   #4
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Default Re: Update on 315 exploding engines.

The quick fix would be to increase the oil volume supplied. A new pump (if the old one is worn) would accomplish this. Otherwise you would need a larger pump. Switching to a higher viscosity oil would reduce losses through the main bearings, but would risk oil starvation on very cold starts.

If the main bearings are worn enough to drop hot oil pressure to zero, you may already be in the twilight zone.

Hydrodynamic bearings oil volume requirements increase almost exponentially with regards to bearing clearance. At some point the bearing clearance allows the crank to lift off the oil film enough for air (or the hammer effect) to displace the oil film. Once contact between the crank and bearing shell starts it doesn't take long for complete bearing meltdown to occur.

If the oil pump has lots of endplay you may be losing oil pressure this way.

If I was in your position, my approach would the following.
  1. Pull the oil filter and check for bearing material. If there is lots of bearing material the engine may be already done.
  2. Remove the oil pump, and check the backlash and endplay. If there is substantial wear, I would fit a fresh pump (confirm the endplay, as even new pumps can benefit in this area.)
  3. If none of the above have results, switching to a 50W oil may buy some time.
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Old 01-09-2017, 06:32 PM   #5
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Default Re: Update on 315 exploding engines.

Eric,

I appreciate you have only just taken 'ownership' of this 315 but do you know if the loss of oil pressure was sudden or happened over a period of time?

If sudden then one possible cause is the pressure relief valve sticking open, possibly caused by a small piece of debris getting stuck in it or even scoring from excessive wear.

Is it possible to pull the pressure relief valve on a 315 and inspect it without disturbing too much else?

Keith.
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Old 01-09-2017, 09:40 PM   #6
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Default Re: Update on 315 exploding engines.

I would at least look at the bearings while you have the sump off, so that you know where you stand in terms of how far gone it is. No point just changing the pump if the bearings are already gone.

If they look OK I would put them back in. Because that means the problem lies elsewhere and that would be your best shot at finding the issue. If they are bad you would need to replace them and they you still wouldn't know if they were the cause or just the effect.

I wouldn't do both pump and bearings at the same time. Because then you wont know what actually caused it. What would be good is to somehow test the pump vs a new pump. Not sure how.

Like was said above I would try and find out the exact driving conditions that lead to the noise. Whether or not it was sudden, there could be a clue there. eg. Always Long hot freeway runs. Or lots of engine stop start. Loads carried. etc.

I will be back from holidays soon, so will give you a hand.

Last edited by owner; 01-09-2017 at 09:43 PM.
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Old 01-10-2017, 12:02 AM   #7
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Default Re: Update on 315 exploding engines.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Experience View Post
A few months ago I asked for someone to let me have a 315 engine that was over 200K but still running. Thanks to Sockeye I now have a 315 with a very sick engine but still running. I hope to use this to figure out a fix for the problem. This will be a real challenge as this engine has 0 oil pressure when hot. Now the challenge is decide what to do first. The options are to just fit a new oil pump, or just replace the bearings, or fit a larger pump. The vehicle has other problems that need fixing first to make it more drive-able for a comparison. Any ideas? Eric
Hi Eric
Great idea and assistance from Sockeye too !! Cheers Now I am just sitting at my computer with the fan on and the stereo playing so I am not getting down and dirty I realise !

But the logic of it as I see it, is to start at the pump. Low oil pressure so remove the pump and relief valve and check for specs and wear. Then fit new pump to see what that does. Easily changed back if nothing changed. Or fit the bigger pump then. While you are in there hand check the bearings for excessive play, or even with a dial gauge.

Then after trials depending on what you find, you can remove the bearings and measure the shafts and the clearances. I think that you commented previously you saw some ovality in the main tunnels.
Jaahn cheers
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Old 01-10-2017, 08:41 AM   #8
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Default Re: Update on 315 exploding engines.

Hi Eric

I can easily supply new bearings for this research project.

As I was not a regular driver of this 315, and the last regular driver has trouble being at one to one with a mechanical device unless it it made of wood, but from what he said, the knocking sound started to happen at idle and not go away.
My suggestion would be to replace one thing at a time and measure the difference, a very time costly approach, but our other 315 has gone past 400,000 km, which knowledge gained could be applied to it when it becomes an economical mechanical write off.
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Old 01-10-2017, 10:08 AM   #9
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Default Re: Update on 315 exploding engines.

Further testing of the 315 shows there is no correlation between the oil pressure and the noise, so I think it has a broken Flex plate. Eric.
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Old 01-10-2017, 10:38 AM   #10
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Default Re: Update on 315 exploding engines.

Hi Eric
that,s a great project . This thing is an auto ?
Chris.
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