Sprinter Westfalia #248 Refitting

grozier

Active member
That should work. I also really like Midwestdrifter's idea of using a weighted siphon tube on the bulkhead fittings.

If possible, rig up a visual sight tube to indicate water level rather than a fancy sensor.

You could have a fill tube in the rear doors that would swing out on a lever so that any drips go to the ground as well.
 
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Riptide

Active member
If your fill is lower than your vent, at least you'll be able to tell when the tanks are chockablock full, rather than spilling out somewhere under your cabinet.

Are you gonna be able to clean out the tanks? Putting spring water in your tanks might eventually invite some growth in the tanks. Although after looking into our potable water tanks on the submarine, I was shocked at how much algae was on the walls of the tanks, and it didn't seem to hurt any of us...
 
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That should work. I also really like Midwestdrifter's idea of using a weighted siphon tube on the bulkhead fittings.

If possible, rig up a visual sight tube to indicate water level rather than a fancy sensor.

You could have a fill tube in the rear doors that would swing out on a lever so that any drips go to the ground as well.
I'm planning on using a pick up/siphon tube of some sort as well. I was thinking a rigid piece of pipe, PEX, CPVC or even copper, but a somewhat flexible whip with a weighted end would be more forgiving in a moving vehicle...what to use as a weight. I want to reduce or even eliminate all tank penetrations that are not in the top or upper most part of the sides. My dual tanks will complicate things a bit, but a pump like this can self prime up to six feet so I should be able to make a dual pickup/yoke work out somehow. Once the tanks get here I can easily mock up some ideas and give them a test run in the basement.

If your fill is lower than your vent, at least you'll be able to tell when the tanks are chockablock full, rather than spilling out somewhere under your cabinet.

Are you gonna be able to clean out the tanks? Putting spring water in your tanks might eventually invite some growth in the tanks. Although after looking into our potable water tanks on the submarine, I was shocked at how much algae was on the walls of the tanks, and it didn't seem to hurt any of us...
Yes, I am going to install a 6 inch access port in the top of each tank. This pair looks more durable than some of the others I've been able to find and they are one of the few that actually claims that their product forms a "watertight seal".

I've never had an algae or scum issue, barely even any sediment in my tanks. The search for really nice pristine water is fun to me and never too far out of the way, because that's where my MTBing and kayaking take me anyway. To eliminate putting drain fittings in the bottom of each tank, I plan to repurpose the submersible pump out of the Westy's original water tank, into a pump/hose/electrical pigtail setup that I can put in through the access ports to "drain" these new tanks when I need to.

Bleach shock every few months does wonders.
I only used bleach once in my former rig when I first purchased it to sanitize the tank. Since that time, municipal water laden with chemicals every now and again or when I cannot find the mountain stream water I prefer, seems to have kept my tanks healthy. I do filter the water that I drink. This time around, I'm thinking of splurging on one of these or similar in my build in addition to the hand held filter I've had for 7 years. These two new tanks will be insulated with 1 to 1 1/2 EPS on all sides, which will also help with the cleanliness.
 

Midwestdrifter

Engineer In Residence
Municipal systems with chlorine do a good job, I never had issues until I started using lots of well and unchlorinated water. If you have a filter, make sure you change regularly, or use one that cannot support microbial growth, as the filters are a common location.

I used a bit of pex tubing that was heat formed into a siphon, it was about 3" long. Longer can stress the tank wall with water movement, if rigid tubing is used. I bonded the siphon to the bulkhead fitting.

If you have two tanks, you may consider a selector valve, that way you can use the full extent of both tanks. A high flow valve is needed as it will be on the suction side of the pump.
 
I didn't get much done in the actual van this weekend, but I did get a lot of planning and design done. I made a bunch of changes to my proposed electrical and plumbing systems, actually moving many of the components to different places in the van, including moving the sink from the passenger side to the drivers side.

I also threw down a piece of OSB along what will be the center aisle, and a chair in there to mock up the spaces. So far the ergonomics, sight lines and spacial feel of the design works very well and really appeals to me. Importantly, moving up and down the stairs into and out of the van and back and forth through the forward bulkhead into and out of the cab flows very nicely.





I realized that I have two submersible pumps from the Westy, one barely used and one never used. It seems like fate that I should use them in my two tanks. I just need to find a pressure switch to activate them. What's the resultant flow rate/pressure when you run two 5.2 gallon/minute @ 15.9 psi pumps in parallel.... does it/can it double ? :thinking: I want to have higher functional flow than the stock Westy did.

 

Midwestdrifter

Engineer In Residence
Do those pumps have integral check valves? If not you need to add one on each feed before the Y and pressure switch.

You need to measure what pressure they make when dead headed. Pick a sane value below that.

You will want a SPDT switch to toggle between the pumps. I doubt you want one running when the tanks empty.
 

Kiltym

Active member
One other data point about the Westy water pumps. We installed a water filter and tested both .5 micron and 5 micron filters. Unfortunately the .5 micron filter is too much for these Westy pumps and only a trickle of water passes through. The 5 micron works fine. I suspect something smaller then 5 micron would work, but have not found smaller sizes to try. Personally, I would ditch the Westy pumps and just buy a good/proper marine pressure sensitive pump that will easily handle .5 micron.
 

Riptide

Active member
If I was starting from scratch, I'm not sure I would use the submersible pump system from the Westy...

It does have some advantages. I like the fact that the water system isn't pressurized when not in use. But the pumps do require that any item that controls water flow must have some way to energize the pumps. That's why the toilet and faucets have a microswitch built into them, and the rear connection has a toggle switch. I don't know how long the pumps would run "dead-headed", like if you use the rear switch to turn on the pump, and only actually flow water for a few seconds. Many pumps will overheat after awhile.

Those little Comets do a pretty good job for their size. But the 5 gpm is measured at the pump discharge with no restriction. Add some height (figure 8' from the pump suction at the bottom of your tank to just above your head), and small diameter tubing, and the flow and pressure drops off quite a bit. Running both pumps at the same time in parallel will increase flow a bit, but it won't increase pressure. In fact, at 15 psi discharge pressure at the pump, 8' above the pump probably results in pressure at the shower head at around 10 psi.

Most RV and boat water systems here in the US use a different approach, which mimics somewhat a residential system. A single external pump operates via a pressure switch. When a demand for flow is created somewhere downstream, the resulting pressure drop will kick the pump on to restore pressure. The downsides is that you'll need some sort of pressure accumulator to minimize water hammer (pretty easy), and the system will remain pressurized, unless you kill power to the pump when you're not planning to use the system (a single in-line switch). The benefits are much more common support here in the US (any boat and RV place will have pumps and whatnot), the the pumps will have a much higher pressure and flow rating, enough to push thru any filtration system, and probably give you as much flow and pressure as you would like. Plus, since the faucets don't have to have any contained microswitches (and the supporting wire runs), you can use any kind of fixture you like, anywhere you want.

https://www.westmarine.com/WestAdvisor/Pressurized-Freshwater-Systems
 
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Thanks for the data points Kiltym. I am pretty sure that I am going to have a .5 micron carbon block filter serving a drinking water faucet at the sink and hadn't yet considered the pressure that I will need to facilitate a suitable flow rate, so given your data, I will be circling back to a more traditional pump setup.

Midwestdrifter. I wasn't thinking of toggling between the pumps, but having the pumps run simultaneously so both tanks would have drawn down at the same time. That said, I think I am back to the simpler solution of having a large diameter tube connecting the two tanks and a single pump, or a single pump with a yoke pulling simultaneously from two pickup tubes.

Thanks for the pressure drop reminder Riptide. The residential like system you describe is what I am use to working with and should stick with in my van. I did, and will continue to maintain the practice of turning the power to the pump off at night or whenever I leave the van during the day just in case something goes south. I will also be installing my system as a manifold system with full length tubing runs from a central manifold at the pump all the way to the few fixtures that I will have without any connections hidden away out of view.

I was definitely not going to use micro switched faucets with the pair of Comets idea as I had two of the four micro switches in my Westfalia fail on me.

Thanks for the replies...the spiral design process is in full swing here and the feedback and ideas really help.
 

Midwestdrifter

Engineer In Residence
A shurflow internal bypass pump (revolution series) is a good option. They can run empty without damage, tolerate light freezing, and will self prime.
 
Another week goes by....I've been doing more project management than project construction.

My water tanks arrived.



The first of what should/hopefully will be four Arctic Tern windows arrived awhile back.



I ordered just one window initially to check the quality and to check that I will be able to actually install them in the locations that I would like to (see the white patterns on the exterior and brown pattern in the pics below). The quality definitely checks out, my installation is still under question. Three of them are hopefully going to go into the sides of the fiberglass high top, which with my elevated floor, will give me a view straight out of the three windows. I will be removing the two gull wing Westfalia windows.




In order to install the windows in the stepped shape of the high top I have to create a flat surface. I am thinking of doing that with a split jamb wood layup, with the exterior and interior jambs epoxied to the fiberglass top and screwed to each other through the fiberglass. The first step of which is making templates...a little more fine tuning to do to get rid of the daylight creeping through under the template at the top.



In addition to the windows, I am dreaming about insulating the fiberglass high top with XPS. On the exterior the XPS will go above the fold in the fiberglass and on the interior the XPS will go below the fold. The XPS will get epoxied and screwed with foam fastener washers to the fiberglass high top. Then on the exterior I will build up a new fiberglass shell and on the interior I will finish out the foam with 1/8 Baltic Birch Ply. That's the dream I am operating under/researching right now anyway.

I was mocking up some different thicknesses of foam while I was figuring out the thickness of the split jambs. 3/4 inch foam with a 2 inch thick jamb seems to maybe solve the myriad of issues. The pink stuff is just 15psi foam. I will use at least 25psi foam (which I can get locally) and would like to get an even higher psi, but availability in small quantities so far seems to be difficult.




The electrical plan is the final thing that I've been working on this week. I calculated most of my loads and based on the desire to go three nights and four days of boondocking without having to move, it looks like I will need and can fit 400w or solar with 450Ah of lithium. I am going to be dual fuel..diesel and electric. I think I finally figured out a nice solution to installing the batteries and inverter to get them well ventilated and keep them located for properly weighting the van.

I'm not an electrician, so I've been in touch with several professional electricians in order to find someone for hire to go over my system design prior to ordering/installing and flipping any switches. I've successfully retrofitted two solar systems into my vans before, but this is a much larger project with greater ramifications and I want/need some over sight.

I think I've decided to stick with one manufacture for all of my primary electrical components in order to hopefully avoid some of the less then desirable, even poor compatibility that I so frequently read about with these systems. Victron having the most extensive line of components, enjoying a good reputation for quality and having extensive online documentation and support seems to have risen to the top of my list.

 
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I successfully test fitted the first of my Arctic Tern Windows. There's more effort to put into this, primarily epoxying the split jamb onto the fiberglass top, but my idea works. I'm very happy with the quality of the windows and what it does for the interior space, so I will go ahead and order the other two windows that go into the fiberglass top along the sides and the larger window to go into the sliding door.

I made the splits jambs out of some blanks of light weight western red cedar that I glued up from some siding that I had left over from a house build. I used the templates to shape the split jamb stiles after cutting them close to the line on the band saw. I used the table saw to rip the bevel angles on the rails. I then joined them together with half lap joints. The interior jamb is a mirror image of the exterior jamb.






Here's the interior and exterior split jambs mated together after having cut the window opening out of them.



I simply screwed the split jambs together through the fiberglass hard top for the test fit, but the exterior one will get epoxied onto the existing fiberglass and integrated into the new fiberglass hardtop surface that I will be creating with the 3/4 inch XPS.



Installing the window is straight forward, simply bolt the inner and outer frames together clamping the window onto the jamb. The interior screen/shade assembly hangs off of the inner frame with a screw in each corner securing it to the jamb.





Very satisfying to get something actually done on the van instead of just the project management it seems like I've mostly been doing lately. I ordered a 16 inch long LED thrid brake light to install under the window to replace the one that I cut away with the window opening.


 

Midwestdrifter

Engineer In Residence
How are you going to treat the wood used on the exterior? Previous experience would suggest a penetrating epoxy or similar
 
How are you going to treat the wood used on the exterior? Previous experience would suggest a penetrating epoxy or similar
Exactly that, and in addition the fiberglass cloth and epoxy that I use to build a new shell on the XPS will wrap around the wood and into the rough opening encasing the wood in the new fiberglass shell.
 
After several years, I was sick of looking at the adhesive concoction on my side/rear door panels left from removing the fugly plastic things that Westfalia strangely stuck on there. I also felt the need for an easy win. So, working an hour here and there over the last couple of weeks, while I worked more than I should have on my day job, and doing project management on this refitting-I cleaned up and prepped the original side/rear door panels and my two aluminum replacement panels.

Today, I masked everything off and sprayed them with primer. It's not the final surgery, just triage to protect the skin for now and raise my motivation every time I look at my now beautiful Sprinter. A complete finished paint job is on my long list of to does.

85% of the effort in painting anything is in the preparation. I like the collage look. I think I do decent work, but I am definitely not efficient at it, and my inexperience leaves me wondering about the long term durability.
There were a bunch of dings and JB-Weld under the fugly plastic panels from I guess previous attempts at repairing them. Removing the plastic panels and cleaning off all the various adhesives was right up there in the PITA department with removing those metal rails from the interior floor.





The previous owner had a door mounted spare tire rack and had obviously removed the door stop one time causing him to learn that the rack leaves good sized dings in the side panel at the hinges when the door is opened too far. So I fixed those too, but it was difficult to hammer the dings back out nicely because there are structural gussets right inside of where the hinges/dings are/were.






I also received my replacement third brake light and installed that.



My house looks like a staging ground with all the materials that I've been purchasing lately for the next phase, which is major surgery and face lift of the fiberglass top....Yikes ! no looking back at this point :wtf:
 

Midwestdrifter

Engineer In Residence
The good think about fiberglass, is that no matter how bad it goes sideways, you can always fix it with some extra labor and glass.
 
Not a lot to report on the actual build side lately, but lots of design and mocking up going on. I did remove the majority of the inner fiberglass shell in preparation for both installing four more Arctic Tern windows and the fiberglassing and insulation modifications that I have planned. There's more to do cleaning out/up the inner shell including the wooden ribs that I had added during my previous repairs that will be unnecessary in the new setup.

I am not sure how I am going to treat the front nose cone of the fiberglass top, so I have left the inner shell up front in place for now...maybe permanently...just haven't decided which way I am going with that yet.

One pleasant surprise was that removing the inner shell resulting in no noticeable reduction in the lateral stiffness of the fiberglass outer shell. That was good news, even though the nature of my fiberglass/insulation modifications and interior structures will add considerably to the shells overall strength.



On the design side I am really psyched with a simple flip up bed platform solution that I mocked up, which will eliminate the original tri-fold, slide out Westfalia bed platform/mattress setup. IMO this flip up platform has the benefits of a full time made up bed, yet will also stow out of the way in literally seconds.




I removed the original Westfalia skylight and two side gull windows. In their place I am going to add two Arctic Tern windows per side for a total of five windows, when you add the one in the rear that I already installed. I wont be having a skylight.

In thinking about maximizing ventilation and natural cooling I have been exploring installing my Maxxair Fan in the floor instead of in the roof. Having the Maxxair in the floor in conjunction with the five awning windows up high, will I believe result in more efficient and effective air changes. I took some temperature readings on a mild 65 degree day in partial sun and there was a 23 degree temperature differential between the interior air at window height and the exterior air underneath the van. That was a larger than expected differential to me that may promise more effective cooling compared to having the fan in the roof. I plan to take some more readings in more adverse conditions i.e. hotter days in full sun.

My one concern with the floor mounted fan is road noise when under way and/or exhaust smells/gases. To combat those concerns I would design an insulated air tight sliding blast gate to seal off the opening when the fan is not in use.

What do you think...what don't I know/am I overlooking with this fan in the floor idea ?






On the foundational side of things, as part of trying to track down a parasitic load that has plagued my Sprinter since I purchased it, I did a more thorough and lasting job on R&Ring the battery tray then I did five years ago. I also R&Rd the negative post behind the battery and the one down below the headlight. Five years ago after two professional mechanics couldn't solve the parasitic load issue I installed a mechanical disconnect in the negative side with the switch installed in the driver seat pedestal.




 

Midwestdrifter

Engineer In Residence
So you are talking about adding a powered vent in the floor?

I would say a major no. Exhaust ingress, noise, road spray, etc. If you want convective cooling, I would install a marine sealing hatch/vent etc in the floor. The have a powered vent elsewhere.

I have found that a powered vent at medium or high speed moves lots of air. The secret is having low resistance to flow. This means lots of vent space in the form of windows, or an open (screened) door somewhere.
 

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