Engine Oil MB 229.51 or 229.52 best for T1N's?

[Aqua Puttana]

Everyone easy please. This is a sticky.

vic

Good old Lubrizol for information again. This PDF explains some of the "Why's" of oil formulation.

Lubrizol{HCWMKHZLZP-225201116126-KLLVSPEMSF}.pdf

Note that page 7 indicates MB229.3 spec oil uses ACEA base ratings with MB adding additional testing criteria (6 tests for MB229.3). I suspect that applies similarly to other MB specs. ACEA as base, + X additional MB specific parameters.

Added:
How important is a complete drain during oil change?

Originally Posted by gpavlov

Bit of a silly question, but since my preferred oil change location is not flat is there any harm, or benefit, to having the van at a slight tilt? If slant is ok/beneficial then nose up/down, listing to port/starboard? Looks to me that a slight tilt towards the driver's side could be ok or even a good thing...

Originally Posted by Aqua Puttana

It may have some effect, but my personal opinion is that the net result is in an area of diminishing returns.

Many people seem to view leftover used oil in a crankcase like it is toxic acid or completely detrimental to the next fluid being added. If a proper OCI schedule is being followed the drained oil is actually good serviceable product.

Think about it.

vic

Added for clarity:
But this thread is not about oil quality. Take that discussion somewhere else.

If a proper OCI is used the oil is drained long before it no longer is within spec. A cup of old oil left here and there in the engine is not toxic. Assuming no evidence of sludge is found in the pan/sump, I feel that any methods employed to try and flush, wash, or otherwise fully remove the leftover oil (except extra drain time) has more potential for engine harm than does leaving a bit of leftover old oil.

Just my opinion. I have no data. Copy and paste to another thread if you wish to discuss/refute.

Some references I've used along with BeVo.

Lubrizol
https://www.lubrizol.com/en/Lubrican...Additives/ACEA

Ravenol
Ravenol N-GB-New_ACEA.pdf

Ethyl
This is an older version which goes to MB229.5 spec. A newer version is available $$.
Ethyl oil rating.pdf

And of course BITOG
(Maybe 15w-40 MB228.3 ain't so bad?)

Originally Posted by BITOG Thread

In general terms a 15/40 will last longer than a 5/40 if they both use similar base stocks (Amsoil make a fully synthetic 15/40), but in pure oil film strength terms the oil engineer is correct, which is why the best type of oil for use in very hot deserts is listed by Volvo for TDI engines as a 15/40 even for an engine that has an 0/40 approved.
The bad news is that nearly all 15/40's are designed for trucks and that means they have to be cheap, so the quality of their add packs is not so good and not many are true long life oils as a result.

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ub...pics/2861557/2

Perhaps T1N RV owners who often change their oil based upon time (too few miles per year) should be using 15w-40 MB228.3 spec oil? Some RV's can be fairly heavily loaded and often see only warm, or hot ambient temperature operation.

[Roberto Valdez Chacon]

I feel more power in the engine and less noise with a 5-40 febi oil. It is a sintetic oil. Last years i was using mobil 15-40 1300 super delvac.I'll stay with synthetic oil from now on. I think having the parts of the engine slipping better will have fuel savings and lengthen the life of the turbo and the engine shafts. Febi is 229.3.

[PATECO]

Has anyone used this stuff from chevron? It is on sale this month at Costco.

Delo® 400 LE™ Gains Mercedes Benz Approval

[Aqua Puttana]

Originally Posted by PATECO

Has anyone used this stuff from chevron? It is on sale this month at Costco.
...

It has been MB BeVo approved for T1N Sprinters for some time.

It appears that they are on the same track as many formerly approved MB228.3 *only* 15w-40 engine oils. It has been changed to a lower ash formulation to work for vehicles with DPF.

The question for those who want to strictly follow the MB specifications is if the Delo is approved for both MB228.31 AND still maintains MB228.3 spec. [See the Delo 400 LE comment below.] Technically MB228.31 only is not approved for the T1N 5 cylinder diesels.

Personally I would use, and have used a MB228.31 spec oil and not worry about it. Many have been doing so.

Originally Posted by glasseye

Frito has 115k miles on nothing but Rotella T6 [5w-40 full synthetic in the blue jug MB228.31 approved only].
Mobil 1 difficult to source here.

(Some have maybe not noticed that their 15w-40 oil of choice has changed from MB228.3 to MB228.31 over the years.)

"Chevron Delo 400 LE, which already meets MB 228.3, was approved for the new specification without reformulation. MB 228.31 approval requires running the full suite of API CJ-4 tests, plus passing two additional engine tests developed by Mercedes Benz; MB OM611 and OM441LA."

The OM611 and OM441LA refers to Mercedes standard test engines. ACEA uses the same test engines.

Added:
"Without reformulation" hints that the MB228.3 is still valid.

*************
Another diesel engine oil with MB228.3 and MB228.31 on the label. (Not necessarily on the BeVo list.)

Gulf Synthetic Super Duty Plus Diesel Engine Oil, SAE 5W-40
gulf_synthetic_super_duty_plus_5w-40_pds.pdf

Added: It seems that the Gulf oil above is more common across the pond, not the USA. I have no idea why, or where my supplier gets it, but I snap it up whenever it shows on the shelf.

vic

[Isla]

I had my oil changed once at a dealer in Tennessee and they put LiquiMoly Leichtauf 5w-40. Been usin it sense, good thing?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Aqua Puttana]

Originally Posted by Isla

I had my oil changed once at a dealer in Tennessee and they put LiquiMoly Leichtauf 5w-40. Been usin it sense, good thing?


...

A quick search shows it to be MB229.5 spec. That is good. There are probably similarly priced MB229.5 oils that are easier to find.

Here are some comments related to use in gas engines.

https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forum...tlauf_High_Tec

vic

[Aqua Puttana]

From a recent thread.

Originally Posted by lindenengineering

...

When it comes to the older 903 and 904's [T1N 5 cylinder] we simply fill with 10 quart jugs of Rotella T6 [5w-40 Full Synthetic Blue Jug] or Valvoline Blue [15w-40], same as our policy on Cummins fills using exclusively Valvoline.
For the same reasons MB folk like seeing MB bottles and labels !

... Dennis

vic

Added:
5w-40
https://rotella.shell.com/products/t...6-brochure.pdf

15w-40
http://hd.valvoline.com/our-products...sel-engine-oil

[Aqua Puttana]

Some additional information as to why low SAP oil probably isn't the best choice for a T1N or any diesel without a DPF.

The quotes are for the information which they contain. They are not for support of any particular brand oil.

Originally Posted by Amsoil

What is SAPS?


SAPS stands for sulfated ash, phosphorus and sulfur. They comprise a significant portion of a motor oil’s additive content. Sulfated ash is not added to oil; it is the result of additives in the oil burning and creating ash. The additives that can produce ash are most commonly used for total base number (TBN), but also help in other areas, like antioxidancy, anti-wear, cleanliness and soot handling. Phosphorus provides anti-wear properties and further antioxidancy, while sulfur contributes antioxidancy, anti-wear properties and engine cleanliness.

SAPS Levels

Given the beneficial properties these additives impart, it’s easy to assume a higher concentration equals a better oil. But higher SAPS levels can be a detriment to expensive exhaust devices, such as diesel particulate filters (DPFs) and catalysts. The European Automobile Manufacturers’ Association (ACEA) and original equipment manufacturers (OEMs) realized the importance of using motor oil formulated with precise SAPS levels, and lower limits were established in 2010.

The three different SAPS levels of European motor oils can be confusing, especially when considering the same viscosity motor oil (5W-40) is available in mid- and full-SAPS AMSOIL European Car Formula options.
...
AMSOIL European Car Formula 5W-40 Full-SAPS Synthetic Motor Oil (EFM) is recommended for European gasoline or diesel vehicles requiring any of the following performance specifications:

API SN/SM
ACEA A3/B3, A3/B4
BMW LL-01
GM/Opel LL-B-025
Mercedes-Benz 229.3, 229.5
Porsche A40
Renault 0710, 0700
Volkswagen 502.00, 505.00

https://www.amsoil.com/newsstand/aut...-saps-content/

Originally Posted by http://www.synforce.com.au

ASTM D 874 Test Parameters

These additives usually contain one or more of the following metals:

barium
calcium
magnesium
zinc
potassium
sodium
tin
These elements can be present in combined form:

sulphur
phosphorus
chlorine
The sample is ignited and burned until only ash and carbon remain.

After cooling, the residue is treated with sulphuric acid and heated to 775C until carbon oxidation is complete. The ash is then cooled, retreated with sulphuric acid, and heated to 775C to constant weight. The sulphated ash can be used to indicate the concentration of known metal-containing additives in new oils. The result to the nearest 0.001 mass% for samples below 0.02 mass% and to the nearest 0.01 mass% for higher levels are reported as the sulphated ash.

http://www.synforce.com.au/sulphated_ash.html

The additives which leave ash after the above tests can help to extend your engine service life. Without a DPF there is no reason to limit those additives.

vic

[Aqua Puttana]

For those who drain their oil conventionally using the drain plug vs sucking out.

There has been some recent discussion about sludge building up in the oil sump possibly to the point of interfering with proper oil supply. Our T1N Sprinters are not getting any younger.

Last oil changes I formed a small rake using iron wire to insert into the drain hole and help verify whether sludge is a problem. I didn't find any evidence of problem in my Sprinters. Over 320,000 miles on my 2004 typically a 14,000 mile OCI, 160,000+ for the 2006 - no real OCI history on that.

Not necessarily a very scientific test, but I feel better.

vic

Added:

Originally Posted by Aqua Puttana

Many, many T1N owners have achieved multiple hundred thousand miles using the ASSYST maintenance prompt for oil changes. Typically for me the ASSYST OCI Oil Change Interval has been 14 - 16,000 miles. That includes many miles towing my sailboat. The 2004 now has over 325,000 miles original drive train.

My opinion, supported by my ASSYST history and MB recommendations.

Changing the oil filter and even the oil at a 5000 mile OCI is a waste of money and resources.

My fuel filter change goal is every 2nd oil change. Using my typical ASSYST OCI that works out to around 30,000 miles. Anecdotal information from other owners suggests that a 20,000 mile fuel filter change is conservative. Further supporting documentation would be that MB has raised the fuel filter change interval to 20,000 miles on newer Sprinter models. The T1N and NCV3 fuel filters are similar in design and size.

My recommendation to those who want to spend money and obsess about all things Sprinter. Put your concerns and spare money into properly maintaining your cooling system. Don't believe the MB myth that any engine temperatures up to 250F are ok. Except under extreme circumstances, a properly cooling Sprinter engine will not approach 250F, and certainly you should not be seeing over 235F regularly.

Very few Sprinter engines have been ruined by extended OCI. Many more have been undone by poor cooling.

vic

[Aqua Puttana]

NCV3 information. It may give a reason to avoid extended oil changes. (Newer NCV3 Sprinters suggest a 20,000 mile OCI.)

A response in a V6 OM642 timing chain failure thread.

Thanks goes to Dennis for his continued input.

Originally Posted by lindenengineering

No belt just a twin row timing chain.
Yes it does stretch and made worse by infrequent spec oil or irregular oil changes. Again carbon abrasives in the oil causes a "chain" wear reaction, excuse the pun.
When it lets go it does some serious damage , but then the same can be said of all similar engines including BMW 4,4 gasoline and Ford/ Landrover/Jag 5 litre AJ series engines .
A chain breakage on one of these beauties starts at $8000 up.
I have 5 engines to fix like this at the moment. In fact I have been knee deep in one (5 litre AJ) all day today!
The OM642 Sprinter complete drop in exchange is $10,400 plus labor is a great deal!
Dennis

I've always advocated the ASSYST oil change interval. For my T1N service that is usually a 12 - 14,000 OCI. T1N timing chain failure is not rampant in ASSYST T1N Sprinters. In my opinion the tried and true 10,000 mile OCI is conservative and works for all but a few Sprinters which may truly under severe service. Certainly the 10K OCI easily applies to most owner's non-commercial mixed city/highway driving service.

vic