Dr. A Tech Alert- Ball Joints

abittenbinder

Doktor A (864-623-9110)
guys puts on lift, ball joints do move up about a 1/4" or more with a pry bar.

can these joints actually still move that much and be good yet? both sides are almost identical i got 189k miles

guy claims they should move some but not this much.
The Sprinter ball joint design is ALWAYS under compression even if the vehicle's wheels leave the ground.

The factory stance is DO NOT test them as you would test a conventional joint design. NO pry bar. You may damage the boot of an otherwise good ball joint.

Visual inspection of boot integrity and no evidence that grease has escaped is all you should allow someone to attempt.

If you experiment on your brother-in laws Sprinter with the 'pry bar' inspection method by unloading the joint, you will indeed discover VERTICAL variations between a new fresh joint and a high mileage joint, but this discrepancy is irrelevant.

'Wear' occurs in the ball and socket BUT the constant spring loading of the joint will not permit play or separation.

There is enough material to tolerate 'wear' and still provide safe service for the life of the vehicle if the boot remains intact and the grease remains inside (this will prevent noise or stiffness).

Noise, stiffness (aka, lack of grease) warrant replacement.

Feel free to check for LATERAL play by rocking the wheel side to side. That should not be present.

Doktor A
 

Cheyenne

UK 2004 T1N 313CDi
JoDean,

There is a publication from Xentry specifically stating how to check T1N Ball Joints, I will attach a copy for you.

A particular point of note is this quote "Due to the fact that supporting ball joints are frequently replaced unnecessarily, we would once again like to point out that checking the supporting ball joints for axial play is not required and is not possible"

And then there is a test procedure for acceptance.

Keith.

View attachment Ball Joint GI33.00-N-039932_Ver_3.pdf
 

Jodean

Member
ya i read all of this post and this pdf which i cant really understand what they are saying, "check" for any movement while jacking doesnt really tell me anything.

Im having the guy align it against his will on monday, but really was just seeing if anyones "good" joint actually moves 3/8" up and down or if im going to go end over end into the ditch.....

check for movement, how?? lol

this guy was prying with a pry bar not at the ball joint but just lifting the tire while the crossmember had the jack under it, thats how you could see the movement, he was prying the tire up, not at the actually joint and that caused the 3/8" movement up and down

I still cant under my own strength get any movement out of anything, but not sure how to actually check without some tool i would create to put pressure against the two tires pushing out or something?? NO clue, and the pdf is about as vague as it can get.
 

Mike DZ

2016 View 24V (2015 3500)
As I understand the PDF - the front spring is always providing tension on the top of the ball, even when the tire is jacked off the ground. So the up and down flex you get with a large steel bar is really just flexing the spring and tells you nothing about the ball joint. In non-sprinter designs, the ball joints are unloaded when the tire is jacked up, so the flex is actually in the ball joint.

It took me a few reads of the PDF and some other documents and carefully examining the force arrow diagrams to come to this conclusion.
 

Midwestdrifter

Engineer In Residence
Eric Experience showed me a tool he made for checking loaded ball joints. Basically its a 3" diameter pipe with a long handle at one end. Jack the van, and then place the wheel on the pipe with the pipe placed fore-aft. All the vehicles weight will be on the pipe.


Have someone watch the ball joint, then use the level to rotate the pipe back and forth. This will place lateral loading on the ball joint. If it moves more than a mm or so, the joint is worn out. On my van with 150k miles, there is no appreciable movement. This is despite the BJ having plenty of up/down play when unloaded.
 

220629

Well-known member
First. Thanks as always for the input. :thumbup:

... Jack the van, and then place the wheel on the pipe with the pipe placed fore-aft. All the vehicles weight will be on the pipe.
...
:hmmm:

Maybe a bit more detail as to where the pipe is placed? It sounds like getting it in the wrong place/position could be less than optimal.

... Have someone watch the ball joint, then use the level to rotate the pipe back and forth.
...
Is that "lever" or is a level included in the testing?

vic
 

Cheyenne

UK 2004 T1N 313CDi
First. Thanks as always for the input. :thumbup:


:hmmm:

Maybe a bit more detail as to where the pipe is placed? It sounds like getting it in the wrong place/position could be less than optimal.


Is that "lever" or is a level included in the testing?

vic
Perhaps a photo please as a picture speaks a thousand words !!!

Keith.
 

Ned D

New member
This thread is super helpful.

I recently bought a 2006 T1N. Before purchasing I had it checked out and was told one of the ball joints was at max. allowable play while the other one diagnosed with excessive play. They also recommended replacing the sway bar end links, saying those had excessive play as well. I'm not much of a suspension expert and a pretty amateur mechanic (but learning!). Lastly, recommended front alignment (although maybe just because of other items being recommended for change?).

I've only had the van a week and driven it maybe 100km on the highway. It drove great and I didn't notice any suspension issues whatsoever, the ride was a bit stiff/bumpy but there was absolutely zero weight inside and it is a van meant to haul, so I didn't think much of that.

Should I just ignore these recommendations and wait to see if any symptoms show up?
Below is a quick excerpt from the report I got:


Front suspension components
Finding: Alignment

Recommendation: Recommend 2 wheel alignment with other suspension recommendations

Finding: Sway-Bar End Link excessive play - worn out

Recommendation: Recommend replace front Sway-Bar End Links

Finding: Front Lower Ball-Joint(s) excessive play - worn out

Recommendation: Recommend replace front right Lower Ball-Joint
 

Attachments

Midwestdrifter

Engineer In Residence
Your sway bar bushes are a bit worn. No hurry, but a replacement would be helpful once you get some weight in the van.

I would leave the ball joints be unless they have excessive play when loaded. The unloaded (prying with a bar) test is not accurate.


There is no reason to do an alignment unless you replace some alignment critical parts, or you have tire wear issues. How do the tires look? Take a depth gauge and check the wear inside to outside. If you are seeing accelerated wear or feathering on the inside/outside edges, that would be cause to investigate an alignment.
 

Ned D

New member
The tires are brand new, the dealer I bought it from said the previous tires were completely shot. Good chance the alignment needs a look since the previous tires were so shredded, but won't be able to see for a bit on the new tires. The tires they put on were just cheap-o no name brand, so if they get a bit beat up before I notice the wear, oh well. I'd like to get some better ones eventually, but also no point in doing that now with brand new tires having just been installed.

I'm converting it to a camper, so I'll be slowly adding weight as I move along. Headed on a big road trip in 7-8 weeks so maybe I'll do that before then.

Thanks for the advice.
 

gilee

2006 Sprinter 2500 Camper
Hi everything,
and thank god I read this post before I start jumping into fixing/replacing my ball joints.
And thank you Dr. A for this.

I have a 2005 Sprinter, and trying to convert my registration to RV, and DMV Inspection failed me today, ... mostly little things, but one of them is wheel too much play. told me most likely ball joint or tie rod.
I will need to jack up the Van to check myself.

From reading this entire post, and links, the PDF files I downloaded it.
I want to confirm before I go out to check the wheel's play myself.
I see most people talk about "3mm of LATERAL play NOT axial play"

Sorry if I don't quite understand Lateral and Axial....
Once I checked up the Van, with front wheel hanging in air.
What should I check?
1) Lateral means - pull and push the Wheel in and out for play?
2) Axial Play means - wheel has up and down play? (which this is NOT matter?)

Thank you guys!!
I hope this applies to me and I can avoid an expensive repair. :thumbup:
 

autostaretx

Erratic Member
That Google image:

LateralPlay.jpg

So the "lateral" apparently means *vehicle* side-to-side, not just *wheel* side-to-side.

Thanks
--dick
 

JeremyW

New member
Thank you for posting this alert. I took my 2006 3500 to a reputable universal alignment shop on Phoenix, AZ and was told I needed $850 in new balljoints and labor before they could do the alignment. Coincidentally there was another 2006 sprinter in that morning for an alignment appointment after me and the vehicle owner and I had a nice chat in the waiting room. I decided to take the vehicle home and visit the forum and read up before agreeing to the work and came across this thread and the supporting documentation. I called the shop back and spoke to the tech who examined my vehicle and sure enough he used traditional evaluation methods and then made his misdiagnosis and expensive recommendation. As polite as I was, he didn't appreciate me challenging his expertise. I asked him if he happened to work on the other 2006 sprinter that was right after me and he said yes. I asked how that inspection went and he said "the balljoints were bad on that one too." Since the vehicle is new to me and I was interested in knowing if there were any maintenance items I haven't spotted, I took it into Mercedes Benz for service today and they did the alignment and confirmed my ball joints in perfect working order. Unfortunately, I didn't get the contact info for the other sprinter owner (who mentioned being a forum user) and hope he too did some homework before agreeing to the work.

I appreciate this forums extensive resources and community. It is empowering to have such a vast knowledge base!

Jeremy
 

lindenengineering

Well-known member
Thank you for posting this alert. I took my 2006 3500 to a reputable universal alignment shop on Phoenix, AZ and was told I needed $850 in new balljoints and labor before they could do the alignment. Coincidentally there was another 2006 sprinter in that morning for an alignment appointment after me and the vehicle owner and I had a nice chat in the waiting room. I decided to take the vehicle home and visit the forum and read up before agreeing to the work and came across this thread and the supporting documentation. I called the shop back and spoke to the tech who examined my vehicle and sure enough he used traditional evaluation methods and then made his misdiagnosis and expensive recommendation. As polite as I was, he didn't appreciate me challenging his expertise. I asked him if he happened to work on the other 2006 sprinter that was right after me and he said yes. I asked how that inspection went and he said "the balljoints were bad on that one too." Since the vehicle is new to me and I was interested in knowing if there were any maintenance items I haven't spotted, I took it into Mercedes Benz for service today and they did the alignment and confirmed my ball joints in perfect working order. Unfortunately, I didn't get the contact info for the other sprinter owner (who mentioned being a forum user) and hope he too did some homework before agreeing to the work.

I appreciate this forums extensive resources and community. It is empowering to have such a vast knowledge base!

Jeremy
Jeremy--Fellow forum friend and after reading your post "Defender of the lower control arm ball joint!"

Let me first state that the T1N Sprinter and its suspension ball joint perceived excess wear is not NEW !
In fact "If" you are old enough , worked in Europe in the auto repair trade, you would aware of the Vauxhall / Bedford CF ball joint debacle! Fraught with MOT failures, customer "howls of foul" similar to the Sprinter no less !
It too was was available mostly in white, had a similar uses, & van following aficionados and rusted like a rotten old pear hence its nickname in the trade:-
The "Luton Oxidizer" .plus its Italian equivalent the "Torino Oxidizer'!
Yertiz ! Gone but not forgotten

https://www.google.com/search?q=bed...1.69i57j0l2.9198j0j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

If you jacked the bloody thing up after a few thousand miles in service it had what was interpreted as "ball joint play" much like the Sprinter aka Stuttgart Oxidizer . With so many annual MOT failures, & people getting "RED UN's" the Ministry issued a directive as the discarded "A" serviceable control arms piled up in repair shops' scrap bins .
In short, that directive was to put the van on a set of alignment turntables and plot the steering movement. Any substantial wear would instantly show up to the trained operative when subjected to this test . (trained operative! key words here!:thumbup:
Its part of why if some wear is observed on today's UK MOT test but not deemed excessive, is noted on record against your vehicle for the next annual MOT inspection. As "Observation"!

Now in the case of the Sprinter, although the construction of the ball joint has moved on since the 1970's with internal plastic encapsulation, however the same basic test applies!
Confirmed by their factory approved alignment rig with Rombus softwear .
Now if you are trained on that platform as an operative you should know that!

Going to an independent alignment shop has its cost benefits, and equally it has potential problems as you have have discovered being a consumer.
The business of alignment and steering inspections has been largely been driven down by de-skilling & paying operatives around $15 to $18 /hour.

The business frankly is price sensitive and has to be competitive,.
Here in the USA the buying public do not believe in having trained skilled specialty personnel in under-body chassis auto repairs, and demand low prices for these alignment service which for the most part are loss leaders in the march to up-sell replacement parts & repairs.
(get the ideas???)

Furthermore an Independent shop might not have the latest machinery with software updates nor service info for a Sprinter (Rombus etc) being expensive at about $70,000!

A dealer on the other hand is forced to have such alignment rigs in the shop and employ a higher level of service personnel, but the tariff will be higher as rule due to overheads.

I hope that gives you a more amplified vision of the prevailing auto repair business here in the USA.
Dennis
 
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Took my van to the closest shop to get an inspection sticker as mine was months dead. Now this shop not to mention any names but the ONLY shop on Route 21 within the city Limits of Charleston WV Failed my ball joints. Tech showed me the up and down play of about 1/4". I was polite and told them I would Order some and bring it back. Came home wed searched for procedure, printed out the PDF and took it back to them within like 10 mins. The tech looks at me like Im stupid and then the shop owner (Mike) comes out and I tried to show him the paper and he states "We are not putting a sticker on unless it has new ball joints" I even read the procedure to them (Cuz honestly I dont think they can read) So then I say ok so I take it somewhere else or I can call the State police and let them know that you dont know what you are doing. Boy did I get a "GET THE F YOU C K off of my lot!" You have to really not care about your shop to treat an Automotive Mechanical inspector that lives within walking distance of your shop like that. I knew for certain this van would pass before I took it there. Hey MIKE how much biz did this one post cost you over a $15 sticker that I got 5 mins later? And MANY thanks to DOC A. for talking with me on a couple of problems. Anyone traveling or in Charleston WV hit me up if you need anything. I am an (expired) ASE MASTER with ADV engine performance. I have worked in multiple dealerships and have been Inspecting Vehicles for 20 years.
 

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